We need an "Undo" button

[BusterKing]

For me it's all about the substitutions.

[rudoggy]

Originally Posted by Cras

No kidding. Would love to mass select and offer a minor league contract.

Not to derail this thread at all, but if you mean offering all your minor league free agents a contract, from the bottom of the free agent screen, under the "action" tab, is "offer all minor league contracts" or some such.

[fintach]

Originally Posted by rudoggy

Not to derail this thread at all, but if you mean offering all your minor league free agents a contract, from the bottom of the free agent screen, under the "action" tab, is "offer all minor league contracts" or some such.

Really? I didn't know that. I'll have to check that Action tab more often. . . .

[rudoggy]

Originally Posted by Cras

No kidding. Would love to mass select and offer a minor league contract.

Originally Posted by fintach

Really? I didn't know that. I'll have to check that Action tab more often. . . .

saved me so much time, i used to offer the 30+ contracts by hand each year.
I forget who told me, pass it on!

[Dan Kalvoski]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

For me it's all about the substitutions.

Yup. Nothing like having the computer decide you really wanted to bat your star reliever leadoff in the eighth inning of a playoff game when you trail by one run, substituting for your best pinch-hitter who you had just put into that slot ...

although playing in 1915 of my alternative history league that wouldn't completely suck as my star reliever is a lefty named Ruth.

[Layton is my Homeboy]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Would a "Are you sure you want to do that? Y/N" button work? It'd be hella easier to program in.

I think the issue there is ease of programming versus usability for the player. Having to click twice every time you make a substitution just detracts a little bit more from the usability experience, IMO.

[The Wolf]

Holy cow, Johnston, how many substitutions per game do you make?

I don't see how four or five more clicks a game is going to detract from anybody's OOTP experience.

[Layton is my Homeboy]

Like I said, I think it would detract a little from the user experience. Usability and interface design are all about taking the time to do the small things right so that everything flows more naturally for the user. I doubt anyone will stop playing because of a confirm button, but they will have a slightly less enjoyable game experience - even if they don't consciously know why.

Some software and web development firms (large ones, who can afford this sort of thing) employ "click counters" whose main job responsibility is to is to count the number of clicks it takes to get from A to B and to propose more streamlined interfaces.

[towerofpower]

Originally Posted by Layton is my Homeboy

Like I said, I think it would detract a little from the user experience. Usability and interface design are all about taking the time to do the small things right so that everything flows more naturally for the user. I doubt anyone will stop playing because of a confirm button, but they will have a slightly less enjoyable game experience - even if they don't consciously know why.

Some software and web development firms (large ones, who can afford this sort of thing) employ "click counters" whose main job responsibility is to is to count the number of clicks it takes to get from A to B and to propose more streamlined interfaces.

I think that I'd rather click confirm than have my 7th inning reliever pinch hit for my clean up batter!

[The Wolf]

Heck yes! Five more clicks per game in exchange for no more games being screwed up? It's a no-brainer!

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by mbi

I'm probably the only person on the forums who is against an undo button. I understand the reasoning for it and I wouldn't be surprised/angry if it was instituted, but your reason for needing it is my reason for not needing it.

If you are going to manage your games in detail like this (this is how I play and have done things like this before), then you need to make sure you don't screw up. Remember a few years ago when Joe Maddon messed his lineup card up and Andy Sonnanstine had to pitch? I see this as the same type of thing, and more or less you need to be a better manager to make sure that is doesn't happen.

However, I would love a "confirm substitution" button, that may or may not be optional. I have had a few times where I am dragging a player into the bullpen and accidentally drop him into the game. Having a confirm substitution button allows this problem to go away all while not being an "oh no I messed up and didn't realize it" button.

I agree with this, and the 'consistent button' issue. Any other problem I could put down to the batter missing a sign, or whatever, but I HATE it when a hitter gets dragged to a spot I didn't want him in. And there's absolutely no way to prevent, regardless of the level of care you exercise.

"Confirm substitution", please.

[drksd4848]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Now that we finally have the save game feature, how about the famous "Undo" button that we ask for every version?

AMEN!

Folks, "UNDO" is one of the many "NO BRAINER" option/functions that should have been in this game from V 1.0

[kultrva]

I don't like the idea of an undo button for 2 reasons.

1) The difficulty of coding it. I'm not a very experienced programmer (though I do have some experience), but I can say that it would be a big headache for Markus. Not saying he couldn't do it, but he has more important things to focus on at this point.

2) The ability to call back entire plays via an undo button leads to the potential for abuse. It doesn't really matter in a single-player game, but IMO it kind of takes away from the atmosphere of the game, knowing in the back of your mind that you could just try that at-bat again if it doesn't go well.

That said, an optional confirmation button is a much better solution. That way, if you do make a mistake or click incorrectly, you can fix your error without compromising the integrity of the game.

[drksd4848]

Hats off to those write code. It must be challenging. I'm not a programmer, so I have no concept of the difficulty in coding UNDO. It could be really difficult; I don't know...

*But*....Every single program - no just sports simulation programs - but every single program I've used on a computer has had SOME sort of UNDO. Gotta have it... no if ands or buts.... Ridiculous not to. Should have been in there from day 1.

SOM has it. ActionPC has it. Outside of sports sims, Word has it. Photoshop has layers of UNDO. Name a program that doesn't.

If you are playing solitaire, who cares what you do. If you are playing in a league, then scouts honor. Have it be noted in the box score or log or something.

And there are so much room for error in setting up and running a league, it's gotta be there.

There's a lot of cool neat stuff in this game, and it can be a whole bunch of fun. But it is also unnecessarily unforgiving.

Like I said, it's ludicrous that UNDO wasn't in the game from day 1. No brainer.

I bought into this game last year (ootp11) and I'm giving it one more shot this year, but if "no brainer's" like UNDO aren't in it next year, I'm out. It's too frustrating without it.

Originally Posted by kultrva

I don't like the idea of an undo button for 2 reasons.

1) The difficulty of coding it. I'm not a very experienced programmer (though I do have some experience), but I can say that it would be a big headache for Markus. Not saying he couldn't do it, but he has more important things to focus on at this point.

2) The ability to call back entire plays via an undo button leads to the potential for abuse. It doesn't really matter in a single-player game, but IMO it kind of takes away from the atmosphere of the game, knowing in the back of your mind that you could just try that at-bat again if it doesn't go well.

That said, an optional confirmation button is a much better solution. That way, if you do make a mistake or click incorrectly, you can fix your error without compromising the integrity of the game.

[Pdubya64]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Heck yes! Five more clicks per game in exchange for no more games being screwed up? It's a no-brainer!

Seeing that there is plenty of that around here it should be a slam dunk, eh?



Ouch!

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by drksd4848

*But*....Every single program - no just sports simulation programs - but every single program I've used on a computer has had SOME sort of UNDO. Name a program that doesn't.

I have many wargames and roleplaying games on my computer, and none of them have an 'undo' feature. Battle For Wesnoth has been in constant development for eight or nine years, and it has a huge team of programmers, but it doesn't have 'undo'. In most such games you have to remember to save frequently, like just before you expect some crisis point, then 'quit/reload' to get back to your last saved game. Some games allow you to go back to the start of your turn, but in OotPB that would take you back to the start of the day, before the game you were in began.

I've also played some online games, and none of them have 'undo' features, either. That would be because everything you do affects all the other players in the game, and the games advance at realtime speeds, so those might be irrelevant.

Likewise, your examples of Word and Photoshop aren't really relevant, because they work differently than games do. It wouldn't require a monster memory cache to keep track of the last two/five/ten/whatever states your document was in and roll back to one of them. In OotPB there are hundreds of decision points in each day, maybe a thousand in a day (depending upon your style of play), many of which affect other things in the game, so I would expect the memory cache to be huge.

Strat-O-Matic and Action Baseball would seem to be legitimate points of comparison, and I have no idea why or how they've incorporated 'undo' functions.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by drksd4848

Hats off to those write code. It must be challenging. I'm not a programmer, so I have no concept of the difficulty in coding UNDO. It could be really difficult; I don't know...

*But*....Every single program - no just sports simulation programs - but every single program I've used on a computer has had SOME sort of UNDO. Gotta have it... no if ands or buts.... Ridiculous not to. Should have been in there from day 1.

SOM has it. ActionPC has it. Outside of sports sims, Word has it. Photoshop has layers of UNDO. Name a program that doesn't.

If you are playing solitaire, who cares what you do. If you are playing in a league, then scouts honor. Have it be noted in the box score or log or something.

And there are so much room for error in setting up and running a league, it's gotta be there.

There's a lot of cool neat stuff in this game, and it can be a whole bunch of fun. But it is also unnecessarily unforgiving.

Like I said, it's ludicrous that UNDO wasn't in the game from day 1. No brainer.

I bought into this game last year (ootp11) and I'm giving it one more shot this year, but if "no brainer's" like UNDO aren't in it next year, I'm out. It's too frustrating without it.

Well, since you asked, off the top of my head...

Front Office Football
Draft Day Sports Pro Basketball 2
Football Manager
Fast Break College Basketball

Originally Posted by Curtis

I agree with this, and the 'consistent button' issue. Any other problem I could put down to the batter missing a sign, or whatever, but I HATE it when a hitter gets dragged to a spot I didn't want him in. And there's absolutely no way to prevent, regardless of the level of care you exercise.

"Confirm substitution", please.

Originally Posted by kultrva

I don't like the idea of an undo button for 2 reasons.

1) The difficulty of coding it. I'm not a very experienced programmer (though I do have some experience), but I can say that it would be a big headache for Markus. Not saying he couldn't do it, but he has more important things to focus on at this point.

2) The ability to call back entire plays via an undo button leads to the potential for abuse. It doesn't really matter in a single-player game, but IMO it kind of takes away from the atmosphere of the game, knowing in the back of your mind that you could just try that at-bat again if it doesn't go well.

That said, an optional confirmation button is a much better solution. That way, if you do make a mistake or click incorrectly, you can fix your error without compromising the integrity of the game.

IMHO these two guys have it right, an optional "confirm substitution" button and consistent button numbering for your in-game decisions. IMHO an UNDO button for all situations is not something worth the time or effort to create in such a complex game.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Heck yes! Five more clicks per game in exchange for no more games being screwed up? It's a no-brainer!

This all sounds well and good but please don't volunteer my time to do more clicking. I do understand the want and need of such a feature but if added it needs to be an option one can turn off. I personally don't want or need it.

I've played every inning of every game over 20+ seasons and can count on one hand the times I've dropped someone in the wrong slot. Compare that to the number of "confirm sub" clicks I'd have had to do over 20+ seasons. No thanks. If I make a mistake it is my fault and I can justify it as me making a mistake on the lineup card that by rule the umpire must enforce.

I would hate an inning where I..
PH for the P "are you sure?" Y

PH gets a hit, now bring in PR "are you sure?" Y

Inning ends and now I do a double switch

PR leaves for a new position player "are you sure?" Y

New P comes into a different slot in batting order "are you sure?" Y

YES, dang it(I'd use a different word in the privacy of my own home) I'm sure. Please stop asking me

-------------------------------------------

Next game I'm up 10-0 in the 8th. I decide to get 4 bench players an AB and some time in the field.

drag\drop new 1b "are you sure?" Y

drag\drop new cf "are you sure?" Y

drag\drop new 3b "are you sure?" Y

drag\drop new ss "are you sure?" Y

No actually I'm not so sure. Lets just not make the subs and call it good enough. These guys can just play some other time.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Pdubya64

Seeing that there is plenty of that around here it should be a slam dunk, eh?

Speak for yourself!

[TGH-Adfabre]

Instead of a toggle on/off I think a browser style "Do not show me this message again" check box would work well.

I do not recall an Undo in Madden (in game), any Basketball game I've played, or Hockey or Baseball. I would have to double check RTTS but I don't remember "Undo' in the in game menu anywhere.

Originally Posted by Curtis

Battle For Wesnoth has been in constant development for eight or nine years, and it has a huge team of programmers, but it doesn't have 'undo'. In most such games you have to remember to save frequently, like just before you expect some crisis point, then 'quit/reload' to get back to your last saved game.

Purely for the sake of being a nag. lol
Battle for Westnoth has an auto save feature that saves each turn and allows you to decide how many turns you want to save. Very cool game for what it is.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by TGH-Adfabre

Purely for the sake of being a nag. lol
Battle for Westnoth has an auto save feature that saves each turn and allows you to decide how many turns you want to save.

If you can nag, so can I.

Originally Posted by Curtis

Battle For Wesnoth has been in constant development for eight or nine years, and it has a huge team of programmers, but it doesn't have 'undo'.{snip} Some games allow you to go back to the start of your turn, but in OotPB that would take you back to the start of the day, before the game you were in began.