The Final Straw--I've bought my last copy of OOTP

[mking55]

A new patch was just announced. Here is is with what's been fixed/added:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Andreas was busy coding some new features for OOTP 12, but we decided that they'd be a good fit for OOTP 11 as well, so we will release a new patch very soon. The new version will support Facebook & Twitter, which should be useful for online leagues and dynasty writers, as well as people who want to bug their friends with OOTP-related news

During the development time I tried to fix a few bugs as well, and here is the current list of fixes:

- Fixed issues with awards not going to deserving players when they are not on a team
- Fixed projected payroll calculation when extension offers exist
- Fixed rare crashes when enabling the DH prior to a game
- Fixed some PbP issues
- Fixed issue that resulted in duplicated players when manually activating minor league players from the DL and asking for AI minor setup afterwards
- Fixed rare instances when players have no demands listed in the free agent list but asked for a major league contract in the offer screen
- Fixed a bug which caused bad fielding ratings when importing a historical league with custom CSV files and neutralized stats enabled
- Fixed problem where story line messages did not contain person names
- Ongoing stories will now be saved in world.dat instead of an extra file
- Added several baseball card features
- File version of english.xml file displayed on database info page
- Fixed multiple small bugs, mainly cosmetic ones

Andreas will explain the new stuff in a later post

All the best!
Markus

PS: iOOTP is progressing nicely, and full-time OOTP 12 development will start very soon.

I've bought every version since V2. I have also worked in software development companies for close to 30 years (getting old is not so much fun). The companies I worked for had competition, but I hope the philosophy there was the standard in the software industry. BUGS GET FIXED FIRST. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If we didn't fix them, the customers would look elsewhere for their software solutions.

With OOTP there is not a boatload of competition so their arrogance and disregard for their customer base doesn't seem to be hurting sales. The silence of those people who see these bugs and don't say anything doesn't help. I've noticed there are more people complaining about legacy bugs but all we can do about it is not buy the game.

Regarding this latest patch I will mention 2 things not there that I feel are more important than "baseball card features". Bugs vs. Baseball Cards. The only reason I can think of why Baseball Cards trump bugs is that they're easier to do and there are plenty of sales regardless of what you throw to the customers. However, that's no excuse.

1. When offering a free agent a contract and I meet demand, I will often get an email telling me my offer is way off base. I go back into the free agent and he's asking for what I just gave him. If the plan is to drive the gameplayer crazy, it's working. Otherwise it's a legacy bug that is being ignored.

2. When I go into my pitching lineup screen (for example) and I set it up to see pitchers and their stats, I get them. Then I look elsewhere and when I return to the pitching lineup screen who knows what's there. Maybe it's pitcher's batting averages, maybe it's batters pitching stats, but I can guarantee you it won't be pitchers and their stats.

When I look at free agents and I subset to catchers and then I go and try to trade for one (for example), when I go back to the free agent screen I have to setup the subset for catchers again.

That's not a bug, that's just plain user unfriendly. These are not huge things but they are annoying things that kill the enjoyment of the game. But if you think baseball cards is what your customer base is clamouring for instead of a friendly, low bug game than this isn't the game for me.

I've been patient and I'm not writing here about the other things I've noticed. I just bring these up as things that have been around a while and should have been fixed before some of these other things.

This is not professional on your part, but if you can get away with it, then that's not nice but it's reality. The respect I used to have for you and what you were attempting was quite high. You've lost it all.

Does it matter if you lose one customer? Probably not. But if other disgruntled customers also stop buying you might have a problem.

You want to play with the big boys and be a software company, then act like a big boy and stop ignoring the bugs.

Martin

[kingcharlesxii]

So you're complaining that your specific bugs didn't get fixed when Markus fixed one of the major bugs that people have had since release of v11 and many smaller ones?

Of course, it is your money and your decision. Good luck in the rest of your life.

[Sparrow]

I'm not an economist, or in business so I don't know what is best for the company, and I'm not trying to comment on that.

One thing I would like to comment on is that there appears to be the idea that vocal = majority. I don't believe this to be necessarily the case.

I think we should remember, when doing any poll, or assessing the customer base in anyway, that any sample on a forum is inherently biased, and does not necessarily reflect the desires, wants, level of satisfaction, or complaints of the customer base.

I believe satisfied customers are often quieter than dissatisfied customers and, in my experience, people prone to vocalizing complaints are often more vocal than people who are content.

I don't mean to detract from, or belittle your opinion. I just wish people would refrain from citing forum polls or discussions as representative of the customer base as a whole.

[PhillieFever]

Martin. I totally agree about options not being stickied, I play out all of my games, and in those games I prefer the old style of baserunning, which is to say it's done auto-magically. I set this option in the pre-game menu, and then come the next game, I have to do it again, and again.... and while it's not a big deal, it is a valid complaint. The free agency thing, may be a little different. When a free agent is offered his demands, and he still refuses, that's telling me that several other team's have also met his demands, and that a bidding war is about to ensue. Weather or not this happens with contract extensions, prior to the player becoming a free agent I don't know, and if it does, then I agree with you, that's an issue.

[cody8200]

[falkonisback]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Martin. I totally agree about options not being stickied, I play out all of my games, and in those games I prefer the old style of baserunning, which is to say it's done auto-magically. I set this option in the pre-game menu, and then come the next game, I have to do it again, and again.... and while it's not a big deal, it is a valid complaint. The free agency thing, may be a little different. When a free agent is offered his demands, and he still refuses, that's telling me that several other team's have also met his demands, and that a bidding war is about to ensue. Weather or not this happens with contract extensions, prior to the player becoming a free agent I don't know, and if it does, then I agree with you, that's an issue.

I think what Martin is saying with the free agents is that, he offers a FA a certain amount. The FA comes back and says he's way off on the terms of the contract, yet the FA's demands for the contract that he wants is the exact same as what was just offered to him. If there were a bidding war going on, then the FA's demands should be higher than the highest current offer, whomever that team may be.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by falkonisback

I think what Martin is saying with the free agents is that, he offers a FA a certain amount. The FA comes back and says he's way off on the terms of the contract, yet the FA's demands for the contract that he wants is the exact same as what was just offered to him. If there were a bidding war going on, then the FA's demands should be higher than the highest current offer, whomever that team may be.

I've already posted that a FA may demand x from you but sign with team B for less. Very often it is geographical but sometimes it is because you may have a bad team.

I certainly would not want that feature changed.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

They released an additional patch after proclaiming the prior one to be the absolute final version, and 11 of the 12 changes listed were bug fixes. I don't see how anyone could have a negative response to this.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by mking55

This is not professional on your part, but if you can get away with it, then that's not nice but it's reality. The respect I used to have for you and what you were attempting was quite high. You've lost it all.

It continues to amaze me that Markus and Andreas go on producing this game year after year. They aren't getting rich doing it, and the business may never be more than marginal. The game is getting so complex that supporting it is a huge, almost overwhelming task. And they have to absorb things like this along the way. I'm sure I am not the only one wondering which version will be the last.

So, to anyone reading this thread who is tempted to post your own version of "I am through giving money to you money-grubbing profiteers with the integrity of plague-carrying sewer rats", please ... please, do the rest of us a favor and don't.

[BusterKing]

Just keep posting here after every new versions to find out if your bugs were fixed. If not then skip that version and only buy when you know what's bothering you has been fixed.

Otherwise you gonna have a heart attack taking this game so seriously.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by SteveP

It continues to amaze me that Markus and Andreas go on producing this game year after year. They aren't getting rich doing it, and the business may never be more than marginal. The game is getting so complex that supporting it is a huge, almost overwhelming task. And they have to absorb things like this along the way. I'm sure I am not the only one wondering which version will be the last.

So, to anyone reading this thread who is tempted to post your own version of "I am through giving money to you money-grubbing profiteers with the integrity of plague-carrying sewer rats", please ... please, do the rest of us a favor and don't.

Steve,

I don't believe I said "money-grubbing profiteers with the integrity of plaque-carrying sewer rats". I don't believe I even implied it.

I am entitled to my opinion which as a moderator you should not take objection to it, as it's only an opinion. My actions are my own and are based on my long experience with this franchise.

There are certain rules of software creation in my world, and that's the fact that all bugs which affect the product (i.e. free agent repeated offers) get fixed first. Period. Any deviation from this is not acceptable.

I have not mentioned AI or anything else. I've stuck by this game hoping for AI improvements, and long existing bugs to be fixed. I'm sorry, but in the professional world where I live there is no excuse for letting bugs hang around for years.

If that's okay with you and others, then that's okay with me. I'm certainly not going to imply you're a "sewer rat" because you don't agree with me. In fact, if the game works for you and these things don't bother you, then you should keep on playing. These things bother me so after purchasing every version since V2 I should stop purchasing.

My God man, it's a freaking game. Who cares who stays and who goes? Why insult someone whose opinion based on their experience is different than yours?

I've had a few interactions from you and I must say that you always seemed a reasonable sort. This is beneath you.

A board should be an open give and take of opinions. As long as no one starts a thread by being beyond rude, anything they say is their opinion and in this country, and your country, everyone is entitled to your opinion. Lots of people get slammed on these boards for their opinions. It's unfortunate.

To have you, a moderator, attack someone's opinion sets a bad example. You should be above this.

Martin

[Syd Thrift]

So volunteer moderators should not express their opinions then? Or does this only apply to opinions you disagree with?

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by mking55

I am entitled to my opinion which as a moderator you should not take objection to it, as it's only an opinion. My actions are my own and are based on my long experience with this franchise.

If Markus and Andreas decide to read your OP as constructive criticism rather than as an expression of contempt for their professionalism and business practices, then no harm done. Maybe they've found a "happy place" where this is possible. Since you are apparently dropping out as an OOTP customer, I assume it doesn't matter to you one way or the other. It does matter to those of us who are sticking around, and it seemed appropriate to point that out to others who may be tempted to fire a parting shot before they move on.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by SteveP

If Markus and Andreas decide to read your OP as constructive criticism rather than as an expression of contempt for their professionalism and business practices, then no harm done. Maybe they've found a "happy place" where this is possible. Since you are apparently dropping out as an OOTP customer, I assume it doesn't matter to you one way or the other. It does matter to those of us who are sticking around, and it seemed appropriate to point that out to others who may be tempted to fire a parting shot before they move on.

Steve, Steve, Steve;

My post was not a "parting shot" but my reasons for my actions. The company can look at it and say, "so what, he's an idiot" or they can say "hmmn, I hope others don't feel that way, we should watch carefully".

I think if a long-time supporter (and supporter means I've paid my money every year to upgrade) is going to walk, then the owner's of the franchise deserve to know why. What they do with that information is their own business.

To just silently walk away and not give a reason is not "fair". If my company loses a customer we sure as hell want to know why. And when they tell us, we don't take that as a "parting shot". We might say "good riddance" or we might say, "they do have a point". But at least we know why they left.

Martin

[chrisod]

It's a game. Get over yourself. Geez.

[hluraven]

Originally Posted by mking55

Steve, Steve, Steve;

My post was not a "parting shot" but my reasons for my actions. The company can look at it and say, "so what, he's an idiot" or they can say "hmmn, I hope others don't feel that way, we should watch carefully".

I think if a long-time supporter (and supporter means I've paid my money every year to upgrade) is going to walk, then the owner's of the franchise deserve to know why. What they do with that information is their own business.

To just silently walk away and not give a reason is not "fair". If my company loses a customer we sure as hell want to know why. And when they tell us, we don't take that as a "parting shot". We might say "good riddance" or we might say, "they do have a point". But at least we know why they left.

Martin

Then e-mail or PM them. This just smacks of a look at me whine.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

They released an additional patch after proclaiming the prior one to be the absolute final version, and 11 of the 12 changes listed were bug fixes. I don't see how anyone could have a negative response to this.

SB, if Markus fixed every known bug and every unknown bug, gave the game away and gave everyone a season ticket to their favourite baseball team you'd still get people complaining that their sitting in the leftfield seats and not rightfield

ps Not aimed at any specific person before the backlash

[fhomess]

Originally Posted by mking55

There are certain rules of software creation in my world, and that's the fact that all bugs which affect the product (i.e. free agent repeated offers) get fixed first. Period. Any deviation from this is not acceptable.

This may not be acceptable to you, but to this point, it appears that it's been acceptable to enough people that Markus anc Co. haven't addressed it in the way that you want. These rules of which you speak are not written in stone or in the laws of any government. They're written in signed checks and cashed credit card orders. Every software company has a right to choose how they will address the balance of bug fixes and new features as they release a new product and then support it thereafter. Gaming software vendors are typically not liable for failing to fix bugs in their software, and the customer has no legal expectation that the vendor will do so. That expectation comes from an expectation of quality and commitment to pleasing customers. If the company fails to deliver what the customer is after, customers will stop purchasing their product and they'll learn that they chose their priorities poorly. We really do vote with our wallets.

As part of that agreement, customers have a right to voice discontent in an attempt to influence the development and support of the product. Forums like these provide a more public venue for voicing that discontent than a direct email or letter to the vendor might. Public discourse is almost always accompanied by varying perspectives on the same issue. For those here who are displeased with Markus and OOTP, you have a right to be heard on these forums. For those here who are displeased with the malcontents, you have a right to express your opinion as well.

In other words, let's try to keep all these discussions civil, understanding that this is all part of the process. Not every disagreement is an attack. Not every attack must be responded to in kind. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Ultimately, the passion that people bring to these conversations suggests a couple of things. First, people care about OOTP. Secondly, they want the best product possible. Third, until now, it doesn't appear that they're ready to either quit simulation baseball or move to a different product. Otherwise, they'd just up and leave without much of a comment. Obviously, a software vendor needs to figure out how to maintain market share before it vanishes. Once it starts to disintegrate, it's much harder to build it back up.

[mking55]

You guys are a riot.

With defences and attackers like you, you should have been in the army and gone overseas. You'd wipe out the Taliban and have democracy instituted in Iraq in no time flat. (No disrespect intended towards the members of the fighting forces overseas).

And god, or whomever, help those who don't toe your line and think your thoughts. Dissent is not permitted within these walls. And if your opinion is not the same as mine you're a whiner and a troublemaker. God forbid you're just someone with a differing opinion.

If I write I'm not happy because of x, y, and z, the proper reply is I am happy because of this, that, and the other. No one is offended and people are encouraged to speak freely. If I write I'm not happy because of x, y, and z and you write you're just a moron and a whiner (I'm paraphrasing), you discourage those with differing opinions from expressing them.

And as many of us know, the best results come from an open discussion of differing opinions.

I think most of you are Americans. Perhaps you should study American history and have a refresher course on the constitution and the bill of rights. I know we're only talking about a game here but if this is the attitude when we're only talking about a game, it scares me to think about you all out there when it's something important and someone has a differing opinion.

[Who Killed Kenny?]

Originally Posted by mking55

Regarding this latest patch I will mention 2 things not there that I feel are more important than "baseball card features". Bugs vs. Baseball Cards. The only reason I can think of why Baseball Cards trump bugs is that they're easier to do and there are plenty of sales regardless of what you throw to the customers. However, that's no excuse.

There is a major difference between the two that you are forgetting. Markus didn't work on the baseball cards. That appears to be Andreas' work only. Therefore all of Markus' development time for this patch was on bugs. It doesn't appear to me that the baseball cards were done in spite of bugs or vice versa, its that they are mutually exclusive done by two different developers.

I think it is important to remember that.