Are you ok with OOTP11 not having any more patches?

[Andreas Raht]

Guys, please calm down everybody. I agree with Chris that Tony could have sent a PM or discuss this issue on the moderators forum or with me, instead of posting it here. But on the other hand the moderators are volunteers. Without all their great help, the forums would have been closed long ago! Being a moderator is not easy. Our moderators are doing a really great job. Sometimes something's going wrong, but that happens. Hey, this is a game forum and not the high court

Personally I think what MD did (letting his drunk nephew post and never telling us that it's his nephew) is worse than what Tony did (posting about what looks like an alias account).
But I can live with both issues. Let's do it better next time.

On a sidenote: I stopped working on the next OOTP patch for some time now to get into this issue, chat and think about it and so on. One more reason for "OOTP 11 having no more patches"

[canadiancreed]

This thread is in more need of a blowjob then any thread in history.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

This thread is in more need of a blowjob then any thread in history.

It needs a lock, more than anything else.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

It needs a lock, more than anything else.

The poster at #166 seems to agree with you.

[BusterKing]

It simply needs to stay on topic.

Locking threads is never a good idea.


And it sounds like they are already working on version 12, so hopefully the old bugs can be squished along the way. That would be the best scenario.

[kehowey]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

My nephew has informed me that he is leaving the board over my bad conduct. That simply isn't right. So I'll be leaving instead and telling him to return.

Hanging around here at the moment is pretty pointless for me anyway. 70% of you don't mind a bit that the statistical emperor of the game has absolutely no clothes on whatsoever, Markus isn't paying attention like he should, and there won't be any more patches or a new game until April of 2011, which is a lot of months and a Hell of a lot of beers from now. There really ain't a Hell of a lot of point to hanging around because there's nothing to have any effect on.

Besides, I can spend the fifteen minutes a day I used to spend here learning even more useful tips and tricks on the barbecue boards. One day soon the state brisket championship will be mine!

I'll miss some of you: Sil, Styx, Statfreak, and maybe even some of you whose names don't start with an "S."

What I will not miss is the evil, biased, double-standard moderation that has always been the sorry trademark of this board. One day someone unbiased and competent who will actually do things right will become a moderator here...no doubt on the same day that pigs fly.

Those of you with brains and good sense: please keep up the fight for a better, more accurate game, free of legacy bugs and with accurate stats.

Skeeter, Flash, Blinky; you'll have to call or stop by now if you want to chat about baseball with me now. Bring beer but no laptops.

If the rest of you need me I'm at malleusdei (at) gmail.com or call if you have the number.

Adios,

Lucky (shockingly enough, it's my real life nickname!)

I always use my own PC when I'm drunk or least I think I do.

[silvam14]

I voted Yes in this poll.

I'm not a historical simmer, but I do feel for those with big issues for them.

The game feels great to me. I'm not gloating, just stating how I feel about it.

I wouldn't mind Markus addressing some of the questions/concerns that come up a little more frequently.

Where is Battist? Did Markus leave him drunk in some alley in Stade? I haven't seen him in a while. Did I miss something?

[bosunmate]

Originally Posted by Tony M

Malleus, firstly, sorry for my behaviour earlier in this thread. Just came from an "oh god, here we go again" feeling when threads start getting side-tracked because somebody doesn't agree with somebody else, and there had been so much stacking up with the way you and KT posted (never at the same time, very very often from the same location and with a very similar posting style) that I lost it and hoped that it might calm things down. I agree with a lot of what you say (as do a lot of people), but not the way you deal with those who don't agree with your views.

I'm going to ask Andreas to remove me as a moderator as it appears the majority of posters in here think I overstepped the mark and hope you decide to not leave the board - probably better for the game if you stayed and I went.

I really don't think it's necessary to step down Tony, and I hope MD changes his mind.;

[DWK]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

It simply needs to stay on topic.

Boy! if only we could do that.

When ever a thread gets started on these boards you wonder when it's going to fall of the horse. It would be really nice just to stick to the topic then no one has to Leave or Quit or have the Moderator step in.

[ootpFox07]

Bugs tend to be a subject that brings up a lot of frustration in people, no matter the software product or web site, especially when they feel like they're being brushed off or ignored. Markus and Andreas do a great job and it's hard to please everyone, so inevitably,things like this come up. Can we consider this topic closed and move on?

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by DesertFox07

Can we consider this topic closed and move on?

Do we need a poll about closing this thread now?

Really, if you don't like this thread, don't open it, don't read it.... Move on.

Why do some people have the need to control others?

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Do we need a poll about closing this thread now?

Really, if you don't like this thread, don't open it, don't read it.... Move on.

Why do some people have the need to control others?

I agree - no need to close threads unless they are nothing but people flaming one another with no real game-related point.

[kckid4u]

[Zweiblumen]

Before this nonsense gets locked, let me jump in again with a serious comment.

After discovering some very strange behavior with teams ending the season on negative financials I'm sad there will be no more patches. I'm even more sad to see that someone discovered this 5 months ago, posted about it, and it got no real responses whatsoever.

For a game as complex as OOTP now seems to be, I think a 1 year release cycle with only 4 months of real testing and patching is just way too fast. I think they should cut it back to a major release every 2 years or something.

As is, we never get a good game. We get a broken game that then gets patched to a slightly less broken game, and then things get broken again. It's kind of a shame.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by Zweiblumen

Before this nonsense gets locked, let me jump in again with a serious comment.

After discovering some very strange behavior with teams ending the season on negative financials I'm sad there will be no more patches. I'm even more sad to see that someone discovered this 5 months ago, posted about it, and it got no real responses whatsoever.

For a game as complex as OOTP now seems to be, I think a 1 year release cycle with only 4 months of real testing and patching is just way too fast. I think they should cut it back to a major release every 2 years or something.

As is, we never get a good game. We get a broken game that then gets patched to a slightly less broken game, and then things get broken again. It's kind of a shame.

Gee, I was going to jump in and flame you for suggesting there are bugs in the game that aren't fixed. Then you can experience first hand what happens to me. But on 2nd thought your post was so well put and accurate (in my opinion) I decided to give you a free pass.

[Andreas Raht]

Zweiblumen, you are right. But we try hard to fix all the remaining bugs.

There are some facts though which you have to consider:

- we *need* the income of a full version release each year
- we *need* certain sales numbers and to get them we need new features
- we do not have enough money to hire programmers and testers to create a totally bug free game with new features

...but we're working on it, okay?

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Tony probably should not have done that in the open. PMs to the person in question would have been far better.


And while I agree that Mal being here is better than Mal not being here (same for all of us that post regularly and love the sim) let's drop the nonsense.

Mal has been using an alias to form a 'crowd' in agreement for some time. Here's just one more recent example:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ta-coming.html

Going out of his way to be ugly with a mod maker that certainly deserves better than that. Mal throws a few jabs and his alias posts in support all from the same computer. We do not need or want this sort of thing on this board. State your opinion without an alias echo please.

Tony should have handled this differently and no one wants Mal to leave but none of us fell off the turnip truck yesterday either.

Best check my IP and see if I'm not also one of his aliases since I tend to agree with just about everything he says. He doesn't need to go set up some phony "crowd".

I'm sure there are a number of others who use more than 1 alias, and some of them possibly use them in a similar fashion as you say MD does. I know their work IP is not the same as their home IP. I know if I wanted to I could use many since I use truck stop's internets all over the country, all with different IP's, and I have internet at home. I know very well how to conceal myself if I need to. Be hard to track me I would reckon. So, if I can do it many others can to. To act as if MD is the only one, well that's just not realistic.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

Originally Posted by Andreas Raht

There are some facts though which you have to consider:
- we *need* the income of a full version release each year
- we *need* certain sales numbers and to get them we need new features
- we do not have enough money to hire programmers and testers to create a totally bug free game with new features

Is that (the bolded) really a fact?

OOTP has a very dedicated following, and then there are a number of repeat buyers simply because there's only a limited number of online leagues/players willing to use an obsolete version. Then, I'd imagine a large number of the remaining buyers are first-timers who obviously are going to purchase the newest version available.

I don't appear to have the ability to create a General Discussion poll from this account, but I'd be very interested to see the results of a poll like this....

What is the main reason you will buy OOTP 12 (one vote per user)?
A. I enjoy the OOTP series and always buy the latest version
B. This will be the first version of the game I purchase
C. I play online leagues, and most leagues/players use the latest version
D. New features I expect to be added
E. Bug fixes I expect to be added
F. I want to play with the 2011 ratings/rosters
G. I want to support Markus and company
H. I do not plan to buy OOTP 12
I. Other (post a response with comment)

Obviously, there's no way to know until we see the results of a poll like this. However, based on what I've seen on the forums throughout the years, I expect the majority of the answers would be A, B, C, or F, with maybe a few G's.

You've got us by the balls. Take the OOTP 11 code, change the aesthetics and stamp a 12 on it, and I wouldn't expect the sales to be significantly different from a completely new version full of new features.

[Bristolduke]

we *need* certain sales numbers and to get them we need new features

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

Is that (the bolded) really a fact?

OOTP has a very dedicated following, and then there are a number of repeat buyers simply because there's only a limited number of online leagues/players willing to use an obsolete version. Then, I'd imagine a large number of the remaining buyers are first-timers who obviously are going to purchase the newest version available.

I don't appear to have the ability to create a General Discussion poll from this account, but I'd be very interested to see the results of a poll like this....

What is the main reason you will buy OOTP 12 (one vote per user)?
A. I enjoy the OOTP series and always buy the latest version
B. This will be the first version of the game I purchase
C. I play online leagues, and most leagues/players use the latest version
D. New features I expect to be added
E. Bug fixes I expect to be added
F. I want to play with the 2011 ratings/rosters
G. I want to support Markus and company
H. I do not plan to buy OOTP 12
I. Other (post a response with comment)

Obviously, there's no way to know until we see the results of a poll like this. However, based on what I've seen on the forums throughout the years, I expect the majority of the answers would be A, B, C, or F, with maybe a few G's.

You've got us by the balls. Take the OOTP 11 code, change the aesthetics and stamp a 12 on it, and I wouldn't expect the sales to be significantly different from a completely new version full of new features.

Having spent 40 years in the software development business (Yes an old geezer), Andreas is partly correct. If your product is to maintain a competive advantage, it must continue to grow. However, breaking things that work before or not addressing "key" (this is in the eye of the customer not the developer), bugs/shortcomings, does run the risk of losing customers.

F.(bolded) is a trap. If you really are about playing with current stats, then the Lahman files work just fine with OOTP 8 and it is a free version. So to "entice" those who want "F" to buy versions one has to improve on the historical engine so there is a value add over 8. So Marcus Co has to try an do something different and it needs to be perceived as better, so we will not keep our historical sims on 8 (9/X for pitching and 11 for fielding). Unfortunately, there are those who contend (Garlon's thread notwithstanding), that the current versions aren't seen as an improvement. Part of the issue is the bugs left in the game, that historical sims are very problematic, so it is difficult to see if there is improvements.

I do think there is a business case, for 12 being a clean up release only. Pure Sim and DMB are both feeling the pinch of the economy, and at present it is unlikely they will be producing major functional upgrades in 2011. The computer game market is fickle. You really can't afford to chase loyal customers away, because they may not come back. But with, with a much cleaner version I think there is still revenue growth via the new marketing/distributios which won't be hurt by a better/but equal functionality release.

(I agree bug free code is very difficult to achieve for even the most sophisticated software companies, much less a small company. I can tell you ways to improve {for a fee of course as that is my business - software consulting}).

Since I voted NO, because historical siming is just too broken to use, and I have already stated I will not buy 12 unless it is fixed, there are probably a couple of surveys to run.

Anyway, that is insight from someone who has made software his career.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

What is the main reason you will buy OOTP 12 (one vote per user)?
A. I enjoy the OOTP series and always buy the latest version
B. This will be the first version of the game I purchase
C. I play online leagues, and most leagues/players use the latest version
D. New features I expect to be added
E. Bug fixes I expect to be added
F. I want to play with the 2011 ratings/rosters
G. I want to support Markus and company
H. I do not plan to buy OOTP 12
I. Other (post a response with comment)

Fisking this briefly...

Group A wouldn't be affected too much by a game with no new features because they're here to support it anyway. Of course, if this happened for more than a year or two, they'd start to ask themselves why they are paying over and over again for the same game and they'd probably go elsewhere.

Why is Group B buying the game this year and not a previous year's version? A significant portion of those people were likely wowed by a new feature promised. Others are likely influenced by the amalgamation of new features added in past versions.

Group C is, of course, exactly why Andreas is saying they need the new features. Group D is important of course but there is not a software product on this Earth that is sold and has no bugs in it that need to be quashed from time to time. I appreciate that there are occasionally show-stopping ones even now, late in the production cycle, but at some point the developers *do* need to move on.

One of the pernicious aspects of OOTP is that you can play version 9 with 2010 rosters just as easily as you'll be able to play 12 with the same. As annoying as Madden can get with the lack of new upgrades and logic fixes, OOTP doesn't have this to fall back on really.

Group G is essentially group A all over again.

So what I'm wondering is, how does proposing this poll demonstrate that Markus and Andreas ought to focus on bug-quashing? The game doesn't seem all that buggy, really, particularly for a title most people play for hundreds of hours. I mean, I've yet to have my version crash, for example. There are issues that need to be dealt with but it's not like M&A are going to be adding 3D graphics or anything; most of the changes they make from one year to the next are either fairly small or the sort of thing that the fanbase is clamoring for (or in the case of FaceGen something we didn't know we wanted/needed until we got it).