HBO fights on Sat.

[hamed2]

Looking forward to both & I'm picking the lefty to win in both fights.

Unless Pavlik found his mojo again, I have to agree with Sergio's trainer who said he hasn't been the same since Hopkins beat him. I see Sergio winning by decision.

Think Bute will beat Miranda too but what both Edison & Kelly have going for them is power & if they catch their opponents with the big right hand (the punch to use against a lefty) they have a shot @ the stoppage.

[meade95]

Good fights...Now sure If I'll be getting them or not...

Though I'll be taking Pavlik and Bute to win...... Though Miranda style is exactly what can keep him in the fight until the final minute Vs Bute.....His chin is there to be dented if he catches him......

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by meade95

Good fights...Now sure If I'll be getting them or not...

Though I'll be taking Pavlik and Bute to win...... Though Miranda style is exactly what can keep him in the fight until the final minute Vs Bute.....His chin is there to be dented if he catches him......

It's regular HBO, not PPV if that's what you meant.

[Jersey-Jim]

I'm also going with Pavlik and Bute.

[Cap]

Didn't see Pavlik yet, but caught the Miranda fight on Youtube. Nice short uppercut. Beauty!

Cap

[hamed2]

I'll say & it was funny because Miranda had just posed as if to indicate Bute wasn't hurting him so Bute hits him again to get him to reconsider.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, I just don't get the posing. I guess at one point it did have a psychological effect but nowadays guys do it so much that any time someone clowns around after getting hit, that's a clear sign that they *did* get hurt. And yeah, that was a fantastic uppercut, hitting Miranda as he was moving downwards to heighten the power of the blow.

Pavlik/Martinez was just disappointing. Pavlik rehydrated almost 20 pounds the day after the weigh-in and looked slow. He did pick things up in the middle rounds but then got 3 really bad cuts that his corner seemed completely unable to deal with and wasn't able to fight. I'd like to see a rematch, if only to see what Pavlik is capable of with 2 eyes. That being said, I don't think he's going to be able to fight at middleweight much longer.

[Cap]

The NEW middleweight champion is THIRTY FIVE YEARS OLD!!!!

I remember a time when a champ was considered finished after he turned thirty. Makes you wonder, are the fighters today this much worse than yesterday's or is thirty the new 20?

Cap (Shaking his head)

[Syd Thrift]

I'm sure that boxers train better than they used to. I mean, older heavyweights have been champions or contenders since they started keeping track of that sort of thing. The issue with the lower weights always seemed to be that eventually older fighters could no longer make weight for the classes they were best equipped to fight. When you already weigh 220, 10 pounds of fat that you can't seem to get off doesn't matter too much. At 140, it's a killer. Certainly advances in nutrition and that sort of thing have improved since the 40s.

Also, in the specific case of Sergio Martinez, it's worth noting that he is not your classic boxer with 200 amateur bouts before he turned 18 followed by a long and demanding pro career. Martinez didn't start boxing until he was 20 years old - as HBO liked to remind you every 2 minutes, he was a soccer player and cyclist who took up boxing as a way to stay in shape. In that respect, one could classify his boxing age as somewhere closer to 30.

[Mark42661]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I'm sure that boxers train better than they used to. I mean, older heavyweights have been champions or contenders since they started keeping track of that sort of thing. The issue with the lower weights always seemed to be that eventually older fighters could no longer make weight for the classes they were best equipped to fight. When you already weigh 220, 10 pounds of fat that you can't seem to get off doesn't matter too much. At 140, it's a killer. Certainly advances in nutrition and that sort of thing have improved since the 40s.

Also, in the specific case of Sergio Martinez, it's worth noting that he is not your classic boxer with 200 amateur bouts before he turned 18 followed by a long and demanding pro career. Martinez didn't start boxing until he was 20 years old - as HBO liked to remind you every 2 minutes, he was a soccer player and cyclist who took up boxing as a way to stay in shape. In that respect, one could classify his boxing age as somewhere closer to 30.

Excellent points.

I think Pavlik is probably done at middleweight. If he fights at 160 again, it will be if he exercises his right to a rematch with Martinez...and I have a strong feeling that won't happen. Do you think Pavlik will do well at SMW?

[Mark42661]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Martinez didn't start boxing until he was 20 years old - as HBO liked to remind you every 2 minutes, he was a soccer player and cyclist who took up boxing as a way to stay in shape.

By the way.... Was it ONLY every 2 minutes? It seemed a bit more frequent than that.

[IceTea]

* Boxers do not train better than today than in previous generations. Boxing training is on the decline due to the old-time trainers dying off. The ones that are left, with a few exceptions, are not nearly on the same level. Just look at the corner work in the Pavlik/Martinez bout...both were lousy. Many trainers today are moreless body shapers or halfass conditioners rather than actually teaching boxing.

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I'm sure that boxers train better than they used to. I mean, older heavyweights have been champions or contenders since they started keeping track of that sort of thing. The issue with the lower weights always seemed to be that eventually older fighters could no longer make weight for the classes they were best equipped to fight. When you already weigh 220, 10 pounds of fat that you can't seem to get off doesn't matter too much. At 140, it's a killer. Certainly advances in nutrition and that sort of thing have improved since the 40s.

Also, in the specific case of Sergio Martinez, it's worth noting that he is not your classic boxer with 200 amateur bouts before he turned 18 followed by a long and demanding pro career. Martinez didn't start boxing until he was 20 years old - as HBO liked to remind you every 2 minutes, he was a soccer player and cyclist who took up boxing as a way to stay in shape. In that respect, one could classify his boxing age as somewhere closer to 30.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by IceTea

* Boxers do not train better than today than in previous generations. Boxing training is on the decline due to the old-time trainers dying off. The ones that are left, with a few exceptions, are not nearly on the same level. Just look at the corner work in the Pavlik/Martinez bout...both were lousy. Many trainers today are moreless body shapers or halfass conditioners rather than actually teaching boxing.

Bad cut men are hardly a new thing. Look at Tyson's corner in the Buster Douglas fight, applying rubber gloves filled with water to reduce his swelling. I don't know that the art of the cut man has drastically *improved* over the last few generations - it seems pretty archaic in there at times - but I don't buy that it's gotten worse, and one fight is certainly not proof of that (and I can cite any number of fights from the "good old days" that featured guys with faces that looked like they were in a 1970s horror movie).

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Mark42661

Excellent points.

I think Pavlik is probably done at middleweight. If he fights at 160 again, it will be if he exercises his right to a rematch with Martinez...and I have a strong feeling that won't happen. Do you think Pavlik will do well at SMW?

I don't know... there's an awful lot of competition there. Pavlik wasn't a particularly hard puncher for a middleweight... what's going to happen to him when he faces a guy like Arthur Abraham or Karl Froch, who will just sneer at his pressure fighting and lack of a great right hand? To say nothing of a guy like Andre Ward, who is faster than Sergio Martinez and has more power. I think Hopkins was right that Pavlik's future was at middleweight; it sucks that he doesn't look like he's going to be able to make that weight now but such is boxing.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I don't know... there's an awful lot of competition there. Pavlik wasn't a particularly hard puncher for a middleweight... what's going to happen to him when he faces a guy like Arthur Abraham or Karl Froch, who will just sneer at his pressure fighting and lack of a great right hand? To say nothing of a guy like Andre Ward, who is faster than Sergio Martinez and has more power. I think Hopkins was right that Pavlik's future was at middleweight; it sucks that he doesn't look like he's going to be able to make that weight now but such is boxing.

Did you see BHop on ESPN2 picking Pavlik to win on Friday night? When I saw that I was thinking he hoped Kelly would win because if he lost, it might take some of the luster off his win over him. Looks like BHop exposed Kelly that night.

[Antonin]

I didn't see the Pavlik fight, but the articles that appeared in the local (Cleveland) paper were pretty bleak, describing him as just totally outclassed. I didn't follow the pre-fight discussion, but I know it was described by local radio people as a must-win fight for Pavlik. Don't know what will happen now. Did he have trouble making weight? Will he move up now?

Well, he seems like a decent kid. He has made a good amount of money and could live quite well in the Youngstown area off his earnings.

It was nice having an Ohio boy as the middleweight champeen of da woild.

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by IceTea

* Boxers do not train better than today than in previous generations. Boxing training is on the decline due to the old-time trainers dying off. The ones that are left, with a few exceptions, are not nearly on the same level. Just look at the corner work in the Pavlik/Martinez bout...both were lousy. Many trainers today are moreless body shapers or halfass conditioners rather than actually teaching boxing.

A lot of the old-time fighters (1930's-1940's) were also in better "fighting shape" because they fought regularly - around a dozen or so times a year. Some more than that. They were a different breed, from the trainers right on down.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by Antonin

I didn't see the Pavlik fight, but the articles that appeared in the local (Cleveland) paper were pretty bleak, describing him as just totally outclassed. I didn't follow the pre-fight discussion, but I know it was described by local radio people as a must-win fight for Pavlik. Don't know what will happen now. Did he have trouble making weight? Will he move up now?

Well, he seems like a decent kid. He has made a good amount of money and could live quite well in the Youngstown area off his earnings.

It was nice having an Ohio boy as the middleweight champeen of da woild.

They think he did because HBO claimed he was 178 when he fought Sergio so if he put on almost 20 pounds after the weigh in, makes you wonder about his conditioning or ability to make 160 now?

He just has not been the same since the Bernard fight. The whole fiasco with Paul, he claimed something like $2 million wasn't enough to unify with Felix Sturm - the WBA champ.