Has farm system AI been changed/improved?

[teak88]

Here's my pet peeve. I've raised it regarding every release since ootp 4or 5. Admittedly, it doesn't get much comment so maybe it's just me. But it would be a simple fix, I think. Specifically...

...when the AI runs your farm system, it happilt demotes players from AAA to AA and so on. So you can end up w/ 30 yo Catchersi A ball.

In real life, w/ very rare exception, a player can only go UP ...or Out. You do god in AA, get promoted to AAA; don't do good there; you're selling shoes in Philadelphia.

Can't some kkind of simple on/off switch be put in to enable this feature. When your AAA club has 2 ok catchers and the AI wants to call up a stud AA catcher, it tells you to make a decision

[kingcharlesxii]

An easier way to do this might just be to have a maximum age for each league. That way if an AI wants to demote a 30 year old catcher and he's too old for the lower league, he'd probably get released instead.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by teak88

Here's my pet peeve. I've raised it regarding every release since ootp 4or 5. Admittedly, it doesn't get much comment so maybe it's just me. But it would be a simple fix, I think. Specifically...

...when the AI runs your farm system, it happilt demotes players from AAA to AA and so on. So you can end up w/ 30 yo Catchersi A ball.

In real life, w/ very rare exception, a player can only go UP ...or Out. You do god in AA, get promoted to AAA; don't do good there; you're selling shoes in Philadelphia.

Can't some kkind of simple on/off switch be put in to enable this feature. When your AAA club has 2 ok catchers and the AI wants to call up a stud AA catcher, it tells you to make a decision

This has been possible for a couple of versions now. Go to your managers options page. You will find options to set which allows the AI to only do certain things.

You have options to allow the AI to do the following:

Minor League signings/releases
Minor League Promotions/Demotions
Minor League Lineups/Depth Charts/Pitching

Just uncheck the boxes for the stuff you don't want the AI to do.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

An easier way to do this might just be to have a maximum age for each league. That way if an AI wants to demote a 30 year old catcher and he's too old for the lower league, he'd probably get released instead.

I'm not sure that'd really do what he's looking for, but I'd really like to have age / pro years limits for the minors as an option in the game. It ranges of course, but the average age in Rookie is 20, A is 22, AA is 24, and AAA is 27. I'd love to set my AA limit at 27 (the avg may be 24, but let's say the vast majority fall within 3 years of that average; the CBL uses a 26 y-o limit), A at 25 (again, a healthy upper limit from the average; the CBL uses 24). Rookie / short A, however, should have a limit not by age, but of pro years with either 2 or 3 (the usual as I understand it is no more than 2, but LGO recently posted the rule is 3). The latter would also help with OOTP's developed minor leaguers hurting the development of undeveloped minor leaguers.

[teak88]

Originally Posted by teak88

Here's my pet peeve. I've raised it regarding every release since ootp 4or 5. Admittedly, it doesn't get much comment so maybe it's just me. But it would be a simple fix, I think. Specifically...

...when the AI runs your farm system, it happilt demotes players from AAA to AA and so on. So you can end up w/ 30 yo Catchersi A ball.

In real life, w/ very rare exception, a player can only go UP ...or Out. You do god in AA, get promoted to AAA; don't do good there; you're selling shoes in Philadelphia.

Can't some kkind of simple on/off switch be put in to enable this feature. When your AAA club has 2 ok catchers and the AI wants to call up a stud AA catcher, it tells you to make a decision

...my Amtrak train was coming into the station, so got cut short ...now at the hotel...

So, you are prompted to make a decision: remove someone from the AAA roster or leave things as they are. But the AI can't send someone down.

Now, as I think about it - and since I use full rosters and have the AI manage the minors - there would be a lot of this, since the AI is always sending people up ...and someone else has to go down; it's not just the 30 yo catchers.

So, maybe its a bigger fix than I thought. Ther used to be a version that, as I recall, had different colors in the minors roster screen for players ready to move up (green?) or who should go down (red?). (Or was that Baseball Mogul?) But you could only hit "manage minors" and all the changes took effect, or do it selectively by hand.

Any ideas out there? Solution we are looking for is having a up-or-out AI run farm system (w/ some human over-rides/control)

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by kq76

Rookie / short A, however, should have a limit not by age, but of pro years with either 2 or 3 (the usual as I understand it is no more than 2, but LGO recently posted the rule is 3). The latter would also help with OOTP's developed minor leaguers hurting the development of undeveloped minor leaguers.

All minor league classifications below AA have service limits. It's basically six seasons of experience in High A, five seasons in Low A, four seasons in Short A, and three seasons in Rookie Advanced and Rookie (a recent rule change; previously Rookie used to be two seasons).

I personally would prefer to see service limits implemented over age limits for minor leagues. Service limits are more flexible and leave more allowance for late bloomers.

With age limits, you have to decide on what date is the age calculated, which will obviously affect a number of players depending on when that date is set. With service limits, the player enters the season with a set number of prior seasons of experience, so it's clear before each season begins where a player stands in regards to eligibility.

[teak88]

Originally Posted by BruceM

This has been possible for a couple of versions now. Go to your managers options page. You will find options to set which allows the AI to only do certain things.

You have options to allow the AI to do the following:

Minor League signings/releases
Minor League Promotions/Demotions
Minor League Lineups/Depth Charts/Pitching

Just uncheck the boxes for the stuff you don't want the AI to do.

You are right - and it's a start. But if you check "Manage promotions/demotions" you get the 30 yo catcher in AA or A phenomena (sp?) that I mentioned. If you uncheck it, everything has to be done by hand.

To re-make my point, there are NO DEMOTIONS in minor league ball (I'm not talking about AAA to the Majors and vice versa). You prove yourself at one level; you move up; if you are mediocre at the new level, you may be given some time to improve, but you DON'T GET SENT DOWN. You have already proven yourself at the lower level, so why bother; it would be a bad business decision; you're taking up a spot for someone else to move up to that level.

The whole point of the farm system is to develop talent for the major lg club. It's a brutal world; no sentiment; up or out!

Now, I know that there are some exceptions: the system is short a catcher in Lynchburg, or the big prospect was rushed ahead too fast so they back up a bit. But these situations are very very rare. Just look at anybody's career line stats; they go yr by yr : R, SA, A, AA, AAA, AAA, NL, NL, etc. You will never see: R, AA, AAA, AA, AAA, NL, AAA, AA, A. Just doesn't appen.

so, back to my question: How could AI minors mgmt be improved?

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by teak88

Now, I know that there are some exceptions: the system is short a catcher in Lynchburg, or the big prospect was rushed ahead too fast so they back up a bit. But these situations are very very rare. Just look at anybody's career line stats; they go yr by yr : R, SA, A, AA, AAA, AAA, NL, NL, etc. You will never see: R, AA, AAA, AA, AAA, NL, AAA, AA, A. Just doesn't appen.

For players who are still fast-track prospects that may be true. But it's commonplace for 26- or 27-year-old organizational guys to be shuffled all over the place. Every year there are 29-year-old mediocre sluggers who've put in their time in the PCL, but end up DHing for a team in the Eastern League. You have tons of players who wash out of the Twins organization, go to indy ball for a year or two, then end up back with the Diamondback's AA team. And there are a lot more organizational players than there are real prospects.

If you don't believe me, pick a team. Pick the 2009 Bowie Baysox. Dave Krynzel spent years in AAA, then played 100 games in AA at 27. Guillermo Rodriguez has bounced between high A and AAA and back again numerous times in the last five years. Eric Crozier hit AAA in 2005, stayed there for several years, and has spent the last several seasons bouncing from indy ball to AA and back. That's just one team.

It is less common for guys in their mid-to-late 20s to end up in A ball or lower, and if that's happening all the time maybe that's something that should be addressed.

[trapper]

I agree with the OP. I notice hte problem as well. Part of it is that the AI is way too quick to move players up or down. Like they have a good month and are moved up. Another problem is that when there is any injury the Ai will often shuffle all players up a level to fill the injury.

It would be niec if things were more realistic. Or even if there was a check box to lock certain players away from the AI manager. Right now if I do want to ensure that my big prospect gets handled properly I have to take full control over everything.

[cdheer]

Originally Posted by teak88

Ther used to be a version that, as I recall, had different colors in the minors roster screen for players ready to move up (green?) or who should go down (red?). (Or was that Baseball Mogul?)

No, that was OOTP. Earliest version I played was 4 (well, actually Season Ticket Baseball, or whatever it was called, but the same thing), and it was there. It stayed there until Markus did the rewrite-from-scratch thing. (ISTR the last version added arrows (>>> and <<<) to further emphasize which way they should go.)

What I did in the more recent games was to periodically run minor league reports, which show "Ready for AAA, Probably Ready for AAA, Possibly Ready for AAA" and so on. It's a bit more labor-intensive, but my tendency was to print the list out or open it in a separate browser window, then head over to Transactions to make whatever moves I chose.

Mind you, if I were not GMing a specific team but instead doing a whole league, that would be impossible. Even as it is, it's a lot of work. So I do like the idea of perhaps setting per-league/per-level age caps or somesuch.

[teak88]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

For players who are still fast-track prospects that may be true. But it's commonplace for 26- or 27-year-old organizational guys to be shuffled all over the place. Every year there are 29-year-old mediocre sluggers who've put in their time in the PCL, but end up DHing for a team in the Eastern League. You have tons of players who wash out of the Twins organization, go to indy ball for a year or two, then end up back with the Diamondback's AA team. And there are a lot more organizational players than there are real prospects.

If you don't believe me, pick a team. Pick the 2009 Bowie Baysox. Dave Krynzel spent years in AAA, then played 100 games in AA at 27. Guillermo Rodriguez has bounced between high A and AAA and back again numerous times in the last five years. Eric Crozier hit AAA in 2005, stayed there for several years, and has spent the last several seasons bouncing from indy ball to AA and back. That's just one team.

It is less common for guys in their mid-to-late 20s to end up in A ball or lower, and if that's happening all the time maybe that's something that should be addressed.

You make a good point ..but don't think that it contradicts my original premise: The AI should NOT DEMOTE minor lgrs (w/ rare exceptions); it doesn't happen irl and shouldn't in our fake life here.

The examples you gave were all (I'll bet) situations where players moved up a level or two within their original organization, an organizational decision was made that they were going no further, and they were cut. The player then tries to find a job and will play anywhere, even indy ball, even if it means a step back. The NEW organization is either just filling a spot (back-up C at Lynchburg), or taking a chance that "change of scenary" or "fresh start" will bring out the talent in a former prospect; sometimes it works.

But the point is, the organization - in our case, the AI - does not demote them within the organization. They cut them.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

All minor league classifications below AA have service limits. It's basically six seasons of experience in High A, five seasons in Low A, four seasons in Short A, and three seasons in Rookie Advanced and Rookie (a recent rule change; previously Rookie used to be two seasons).

I personally would prefer to see service limits implemented over age limits for minor leagues. Service limits are more flexible and leave more allowance for late bloomers.

I like this idea. The game would have to be capable of bringing up a flag when you try to manually send a player to a level where he's no longer eligible. This could be similar to the current flag you get when you try to send an ineligible player to the minors. It might say something like: "Joe Smith cannot be demoted to Short A Brooklyn because he has more than four seasons of service time."

Originally Posted by teak88

But the point is, the organization - in our case, the AI - does not demote them within the organization. They cut them.

The Mets demoted three or four of their top fifty prospects this year. None of them had yet reached AA and none were top twenty. It's not common (at least in the Mets' organization), but it does happen.

[Khrog]

Originally Posted by trapper

I agree with the OP. I notice hte problem as well. Part of it is that the AI is way too quick to move players up or down. Like they have a good month and are moved up. Another problem is that when there is any injury the Ai will often shuffle all players up a level to fill the injury.

It would be niec if things were more realistic. Or even if there was a check box to lock certain players away from the AI manager. Right now if I do want to ensure that my big prospect gets handled properly I have to take full control over everything.

Actually I think this goes more to the core of the issue. The real deal is that the AI manager always seems to evaluate talent appropriately, but not designate the *TRUE* prospects as well as they should. In my experience, the AI always takes the best 2 1B for example and puts them in AAA regardless of whether they are developed at the right rate or not. Then the next couple in AA and so on. Rather than looking at the 2nd best(rating wise) 1B and saying...oh he's 21 and projects to be an absolute stud. Maybe we should have him hang around A ball for the first half of the season and then move him to AA for this season and next, etc.

I think the organizational awareness component of the AI is lacking or missing entirely when it evaluates minor league talent. I find that this component is where my "human" advantage over the AI is most dominant.

[CalvinHobbes]

Just for context. Roy Halladay was called up to Toronto at the end of 98 and pitched a one hitter against Detroit, if memory serves. He then started the year in the majors in 99, but stunk terribly. He was sent all the way back down to A ball to work on some things, and came back later in the year to pitch respectably. The rest is history, but yes it can and does happen. I think mostly between R and A ball, and players will often repeat a level.

[mbi]

For me, the only problem with service time is that players don't outright reject demotions for A ball and the like. Career minor league players should have a higher probability of accepting a demotion to high A, but someone who had just come off a AAAA type season or has been at a certain higher level(s) for a some time is going to ask for his release rather then getting sent down so low. A formula where it takes into account major league service time, overall desire to continue playing, mood, etc. should be made so that only in extremely rare cases older people get demoted heavily and don't ask for their release/retire.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

It is less common for guys in their mid-to-late 20s to end up in A ball or lower, and if that's happening all the time maybe that's something that should be addressed.

Service limits in the lower leagues pretty much prevent this. A player signed at age 18 would likely have six seasons in the minors by age 25, so he wouldn't be eligible to play in Low-A leagues.

There is a one-year exemption for players who are converting from position players to pitchers or from pitchers to position players.

[teak88]

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

Just for context. Roy Halladay was called up to Toronto at the end of 98 and pitched a one hitter against Detroit, if memory serves. He then started the year in the majors in 99, but stunk terribly. He was sent all the way back down to A ball to work on some things, and came back later in the year to pitch respectably. The rest is history, but yes it can and does happen. I think mostly between R and A ball, and players will often repeat a level.

...but it is my pet peeve; so one last swing.

Yes there are exceptions to my original hyperbolic statement that no one gets demoted. But they are rare - and they are mostly made for a specific individual's development (the Roy H example above).

But, the way the AI treats player development is to take the ~100 players in your farm system and makes a unilateral decision on what level each player should be at Now, irrelevant to their history and previous progress: Top 24 players to AAA, next 24 to AA, etc. This is why there are 32 yo xML Catchers in AA; and a whole lot of churn among the various A clubs if you have more than one.

As players develop, the AI moves them up, but as they peak and decline, they get moved down. I'm ok w/ the first half of this (and want the AI to manage this for me); but the second half is wrong. When they start to decline - or when younger/better players pass them by - they should be cut, rather than moving down (or at least give me a message, so I can make the decision).

Not a big thing - and kinda a waste of time now, since it's not going to change in the short term - but perhaps eventually it will be corrected

[2Rowdy]

As GM, I'd like to be the one who handled these decsions, but I had an issue with putting the players on the DL, it would not let me put them on the appropriate DL and assumed ML DL. So I lived with the AI handling it and it was OK, but not what I as GM would do.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by teak88

.Yes there are exceptions to my original hyperbolic statement that no one gets demoted. But they are rare - and they are mostly made for a specific individual's development (the Roy H example above).

I suspect it is more common than you might think. However, there is an objective way to resolve the claim, one way or the other: head over to the MILB web site, gather the transactions for each minor league for a season, compile it into a file, and then analyze the nature of the transactions.

The only problem is that the MILB web site only tracks the transactions for the current season; it does not retain the transactions from prior seasons like MLB's web site does.

I intend to record all the minor league transactions for the 2010 season so as to compile a complete transaction record for a minor league sesaon. We'll know who's right for sure in the fall.

[wish7694]

I am not going to do the research but if anyone is interested you can get the 2009 minor league transactions by league from the milb website.

To do so, pick a team or league - I happened to choose the Durham Bulls

Select League Transactions from the list on the left

Click on the select month link

There is a set of three arrows on the bottom of the window that opens up, click on this to select previous years.

You can get transactions back to July 2005.