Have to admit - - I'm back because of promised upgrades - Page 2

Aytumious · 03-31-2010, 05:15 PM

I've convinced three friends to purchase the game using the historical aspect as the selling point. "Remember the 1989 Cubs? You can play that season out then go on from there into the future." That's worked for different people with different teams. Since I'm in Wisconsin, the other two friends were sold when I told them they could start in the World Series year and go from there. Those teams where filled with Brewers legends.

The Cubs fan didn't finish the 89 season, but instead started with the Cubs back in 67 or so. He played that out for 20+ seasons because he loved drafting real players. It was hilarious how angry he was when Ken Griffey Jr. got a career ending injury at 19.

In terms of marketing, I'd really push the idea of replaying your favorite season from your favorite team as a starting point to get some interest. After that they can look more in depth and see how much OOTP can really do. I started back with 6.5, and starting at some point back in time was the thing that convinced me to buy the game. Now I usually play fantasy leagues.

Déjà Bru · 03-31-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

There is a demographic for it. Fantasy baseball users. They obviously like baseball and they enjoy the numbers aspect of the game. It's not a huge transition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

You should be right, but not from my experience. Every single Fantasy Baseball person I've showed the game to has gone "meh". They're just not interested in "playing baseball". I'm the mirror image, completely uninterested in Fantasy Baseball. I've got to believe it's a table game thing. My first table game was Basketball even though I was completely uninterested in real basketball in 1969.

Is everyone posting in this thread (except me) a Fantasy Baseball player?

I'm with you, Rich. I see little similarity between Fantasy Baseball and OOTP Baseball, other than being based on baseball. Granted, a bit of skill goes into picking fantasy ballplayers, but the rest is numbers and luck. OOTP is a game of management and strategy; the numbers involved are a bonus.

Déjà Bru · 03-31-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I think that there are a lot of potential "closet" players who somehow feel that they can't play the game (or any other "game") because it will reflect on them as adults/fathers/husbands. One of my in-laws made a comment on this "Baseball thing" it's called and my wife happily commented, "at least I know where he is on Saturdays and Sundays".

For me, it's "the computer thing" although OOTP is a big part of "the computer thing," for sure.

Claymore · 03-31-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I'm not sure really

Football Manager (the soccer sim from SI) sells a million copies world-wide, and it is basically the same game as OOTP but just a different sport. The reason is that in Europe management sims are highly popular (FM always tops the sales charts in the UK), while the US seems to prefer action over strategy (the PC game market in the US is tiny compared to consoles, it's different in Europe). If the gamers in the US would share the passion of Europeans for sims, then I'd be driving a Ferrari... *lol*

The odd thing is, these games for the most part are terrible, even as more of an action game. The Show series for Playstation are decent, especially the Road to the Show mode where you can play an individual, but in terms of creating teams, playing what if historical scenarios, HoF Leagues, and Fictional Leagues, these games are decades behind. Seriously, just about everything that could be done in Earl Weaver Baseball from the mid 80's is sadly missing on these high graphics games today. I think the American market craves more visual stimulus. I have always felt that a game with an engine like OOTP and some graphics would sell a ton of copies, but I know that isn't the direction Markus is going, and the major players seem to have no desire at all to go this route. Depressing.

I will be getting OOTP 11, pre-ordering now. The able to switch Financials from Reserve Clause to Free Agency is huge for me. Well done!!!

Le Grande Orange · 03-31-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

You can't show them the awesome graphics. You can't let them see a demo in action. It's a glorified excel spreadsheet. I love the game to death but the game isn't sexy.

Well, if some clever individual could find a way around that, then YouTube videos may be something to try. They certainly can be a very effective marketing/press tool if they happen to become popular.

Maybe some sort of YouTube 'series' featuring a character who can't stop playing OOTP and mixes his fictional and real baseball worlds together...

Claymore · 03-31-2010, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Maybe some sort of YouTube 'series' featuring a character who can't stop playing OOTP and mixes his fictional and real baseball worlds together...

Just make sure there are girls in the video. In bikinis..

Seriously...

megamanmatt · 03-31-2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claymore

Just make sure there are girls in the video. In bikinis..

Seriously...

Exactly. OOTP may not be sexy but women always are. Plus you get the "do whatever the pretty girl says" syndrome. Heck put a waiver in front saying this video is best viewed while intoxicated and people won't be able to say no. Seriously, works for strip clubs.

kq76 · 03-31-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robc

I'm not a fantasy baseball player. Funny but I'm not even currently a baseball fan. I stopped caring about MLB in about 1990. I was a big fan from about age 7 through some point in college.

I do think baseball games make for a good strategy game. That is why I like to play. It provides a different backdrop to the usual conquer the world games I play (like Civilization).

You mention Civilization. I think there's probably a much greater correlation of OOTP fans also being fans of games like Civilization than of being interested in fantasy baseball. Maybe OOTP could find more direct ways of advertising to fans of strategy games.

DB is probably right. Fantasy baseball is more just about picking players based on how many points they might get you. OOTP is more about managing a real baseball team. Fantasy baseball isn't much like real baseball. Frankly, it's rather simple in comparison if you ask me. There's probably at least a small % of fantasy baseball fans who would be interested in OOTP, I just don't think it's a large %.

Some people have said they think dumbing down the game is the way to go to bring in more people and maybe it is, but boy I sure hope Markus doesn't take that to mean that he should leave out features and options. Wizards and quickstarts are great to get you into the game fast as is simplifying the interface, but I really don't want to see OOTP go away from its great strength of customization for when you're ready to go beyond the defaults. So options make debugging more difficult. Tough. Options are what make OOTP great.

kq76 · 03-31-2010, 07:46 PM

dola..

No, what I think would be better is better in-game directions and more intuitive ways of doing things. OOTP allows for a lot of things, but often it's very unclear on how to accomplish what you want.

For example, the manual mentions that the saved_games folder is in the data folder, but it doesn't mention where the data folder should be on your computer. Worse yet, the data folder isn't called that anymore!

Try to install some skins or other mods. I consider myself pretty computer-literate and even I had trouble figuring out what to do. Forget about trying to make your own. It's too time-consuming to figure out what the files mean.

Worlds are called games which confuse people. Sometimes they're called worlds which is great, but it'd be better if they were only ever referred to as worlds, in-game.

Report templates are simply called templates when there are lots of different kinds of templates. Label them report_templates like the logo and world templates are labeled.

It reads like you can move your entire data folder, which makes sense, but it appears you can only move your saved_games folder. It'd be better if you could stick your entire data folder, not just saved_games, somewhere other than drive C.

The ethnicities and nations files seem to do the same thing, but 1 doesn't work. Don't bother thinking the manual will help, because it doesn't.

What is the difference between quickstarts and world_templates? I think I have it straight now, but it took me awhile. I seriously doubt that it's clear to newbs.

The game tells you can't process a trade because you're not managing a team, but it doesn't simply tell you that you need to "act as" a manager first.

The manual is great, but it's too much for many newbs. In lieu of an in-game tutorial, a short manual just for newbies would be great.

Meanwhile, an even more detailed one would be better for the rest of us. As others have said, it's pretty good at telling you what things are for, but it doesn't often do a good job at telling you what those things will do, what you should do if you want something specific to happen.

Any of us could go on and on about simple little things that make OOTP difficult to get into. We get plenty of threads, many by newbies, asking how to do things. How many more people aren't even bothering to ask? How many people try the game, can't easily figure out how to do something and then give up without us ever hearing anything from them? Yes, some of things would take a great deal of work to implement (like an expanded manual that probably only a wiki could achieve), but many of these problems would be fairly easily solved.

witwerk8267 · 03-31-2010, 08:11 PM

In my opinion the fact this game hasn't caught on is because majority of the gaming market is 10-24 yr old male players. OOTP requires thinking and strategy. How many 10-24 yr olds do you know that have the attention span and patience to play pure strategy games? That generation today wants instant satisfaction. Action games provide this. That is why true adventure games like Myst went away. OOTP will always be a niche market game but isn't that ultimately ok? We don't always have to be everything to everyone do we? Good consistent growth (2-5%) every year allows for innovation without too many growing pains.

witwerk8267 · 03-31-2010, 08:21 PM

Marcus, you should run the numbers and if it works you should offer to reimburse the purchase of the game to anyone who can validate 5 referrals of people who purchased the game. Just a thought.

megamanmatt · 03-31-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by witwerk8267

In my opinion the fact this game hasn't caught on is because majority of the gaming market is 10-24 yr old male players.

This is actually totally untrue. The largest group of gamers is the 18-30-something crowd if I'm not mistaken. I can run and check the actual age range if you'd like, but the average gamer is in fact in their 20's.

Le Grande Orange · 03-31-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by witwerk8267

In my opinion the fact this game hasn't caught on is because majority of the gaming market is 10-24 yr old male players.

I'm not so sure about that. I seem to recall studies which have put the average age of a gamer quite a bit above 24, somewhere in the 30s if I recall correctly.

robc · 03-31-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm not so sure about that. I seem to recall studies which have put the average age of a gamer quite a bit above 24, somewhere in the 30s if I recall correctly.

I would be inclined to agree that there are a lot of older than 24 year old gamers. I started playing computer games in junior high in the 80's. They weren't very common then, but by the late 80's they were getting there. I think there is a large number of people who have stuck with playing games as they aged.

My guess is that there are more under 24 gamers than over 24, but I don't think the over 24 is a small group at all.

PS - Le Grande Orange. When I made my comment before about you swallowing a baseball history book, I didn't mean it in a bad way. I think it is impressive all the baseball rule and history stuff you contribute to the forums. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was insulting you if it wasn't obvious.

megamanmatt · 03-31-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robc

I would be inclined to agree that there are a lot of older than 24 year old gamers. I started playing computer games in junior high in the 80's. They weren't very common then, but my the late 80's they were getting there. I think there is a large number of people who have stuck with playing games as they aged.

My guess is that there are more under 24 gamers than over 24, but I don't think the over 24 is a small group at all.

Well I can tell you that as far back as 2004 the average gamer was 29 so... speculate from there I suppose.

Russ · 03-31-2010, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

It says April 14th!

That's TWO WEEKS!!!!

CD1083 · 03-31-2010, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

That's TWO WEEKS!!!!

minus 2 days for us premies

pressure · 03-31-2010, 09:42 PM

As far as advertising goes- I'm always surprised that I don't see any advertising on some of the more sabermetric and trade minded websites. Maybe it's just my perception, based on what I like about ootp- But I think getting the game some visibility on fangraphs.com, mlbtraderumors.com, baseball-reference.com and baseballprospectus.com type websites would get the game legions of new fans. It's a whole community of stat minded, spreadsheet reading, computer savvy, baseball fans who invariably think they can run a team better than anyone else in the world. ootp would be irresistable.

Killing Time · 03-31-2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

It says April 14th!

I saw that. You know what that means? It means we'd all better have our taxes done by the 13th.

Killing Time · 03-31-2010, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pressure

As far as advertising goes- I'm always surprised that I don't see any advertising on some of the more sabermetric and trade minded websites. Maybe it's just my perception, based on what I like about ootp- But I think getting the game some visibility on fangraphs.com, mlbtraderumors.com, baseball-reference.com and baseballprospectus.com type websites would get the game legions of new fans. It's a whole community of stat minded, spreadsheet reading, computer savvy, baseball fans who invariably think they can run a team better than anyone else in the world. ootp would be irresistable.

"

I think so too.

03-31-2010, 05:15 PM	#21
Aytumious Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 268	I've convinced three friends to purchase the game using the historical aspect as the selling point. "Remember the 1989 Cubs? You can play that season out then go on from there into the future." That's worked for different people with different teams. Since I'm in Wisconsin, the other two friends were sold when I told them they could start in the World Series year and go from there. Those teams where filled with Brewers legends. The Cubs fan didn't finish the 89 season, but instead started with the Cubs back in 67 or so. He played that out for 20+ seasons because he loved drafting real players. It was hilarious how angry he was when Ken Griffey Jr. got a career ending injury at 19. In terms of marketing, I'd really push the idea of replaying your favorite season from your favorite team as a starting point to get some interest. After that they can look more in depth and see how much OOTP can really do. I started back with 6.5, and starting at some point back in time was the thing that convinced me to buy the game. Now I usually play fantasy leagues. Last edited by Aytumious; 03-31-2010 at 05:20 PM.

03-31-2010, 07:46 PM	#29
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 12,009	dola.. No, what I think would be better is better in-game directions and more intuitive ways of doing things. OOTP allows for a lot of things, but often it's very unclear on how to accomplish what you want. For example, the manual mentions that the saved_games folder is in the data folder, but it doesn't mention where the data folder should be on your computer. Worse yet, the data folder isn't called that anymore! Try to install some skins or other mods. I consider myself pretty computer-literate and even I had trouble figuring out what to do. Forget about trying to make your own. It's too time-consuming to figure out what the files mean. Worlds are called games which confuse people. Sometimes they're called worlds which is great, but it'd be better if they were only ever referred to as worlds, in-game. Report templates are simply called templates when there are lots of different kinds of templates. Label them report_templates like the logo and world templates are labeled. It reads like you can move your entire data folder, which makes sense, but it appears you can only move your saved_games folder. It'd be better if you could stick your entire data folder, not just saved_games, somewhere other than drive C. The ethnicities and nations files seem to do the same thing, but 1 doesn't work. Don't bother thinking the manual will help, because it doesn't. What is the difference between quickstarts and world_templates? I think I have it straight now, but it took me awhile. I seriously doubt that it's clear to newbs. The game tells you can't process a trade because you're not managing a team, but it doesn't simply tell you that you need to "act as" a manager first. The manual is great, but it's too much for many newbs. In lieu of an in-game tutorial, a short manual just for newbies would be great. Meanwhile, an even more detailed one would be better for the rest of us. As others have said, it's pretty good at telling you what things are for, but it doesn't often do a good job at telling you what those things will do, what you should do if you want something specific to happen. Any of us could go on and on about simple little things that make OOTP difficult to get into. We get plenty of threads, many by newbies, asking how to do things. How many more people aren't even bothering to ask? How many people try the game, can't easily figure out how to do something and then give up without us ever hearing anything from them? Yes, some of things would take a great deal of work to implement (like an expanded manual that probably only a wiki could achieve), but many of these problems would be fairly easily solved. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project) For Beta/Devs: Full screen (1920x1080) Last edited by kq76; 03-31-2010 at 07:52 PM.

03-31-2010, 08:11 PM	#30
witwerk8267 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 111	In my opinion the fact this game hasn't caught on is because majority of the gaming market is 10-24 yr old male players. OOTP requires thinking and strategy. How many 10-24 yr olds do you know that have the attention span and patience to play pure strategy games? That generation today wants instant satisfaction. Action games provide this. That is why true adventure games like Myst went away. OOTP will always be a niche market game but isn't that ultimately ok? We don't always have to be everything to everyone do we? Good consistent growth (2-5%) every year allows for innovation without too many growing pains.

03-31-2010, 08:21 PM	#31
witwerk8267 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 111	Marcus, you should run the numbers and if it works you should offer to reimburse the purchase of the game to anyone who can validate 5 referrals of people who purchased the game. Just a thought.

03-31-2010, 09:42 PM	#38
pressure Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 192	As far as advertising goes- I'm always surprised that I don't see any advertising on some of the more sabermetric and trade minded websites. Maybe it's just my perception, based on what I like about ootp- But I think getting the game some visibility on fangraphs.com, mlbtraderumors.com, baseball-reference.com and baseballprospectus.com type websites would get the game legions of new fans. It's a whole community of stat minded, spreadsheet reading, computer savvy, baseball fans who invariably think they can run a team better than anyone else in the world. ootp would be irresistable.