Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee traded - Page 3

jbergey22 · 12-15-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Other than Utley and Werth, the Phillies offense is ridiculously overrated. Just as people overrated their pitching for a few years before moving into CBP, when the addition of new parks had caused the Vet to drift below neutrality.

I agree with what you are saying except I wouldnt consider Victorino overrated.

Skipaway · 12-15-2009, 04:14 PM

Now it's a four-team deal involving Oakland?!

floorman81 · 12-15-2009, 04:42 PM

I just don't like this trade for the Phillies at all. Lee worked well for you, he'd pitch his a$$ off because he is a free agent, and you don't give up the picks. I just don't like it.

kq76 · 12-15-2009, 04:45 PM

Flipping Taylor to Oakland for Wallace worries me. By everything I've read Wallace looks very very good (Taylor looks very good to me too), but I just think of how many great 3B there have been to how many great OFs (yes, there are 3 times as many OF positions, but still). Turning it around, the rare good 3B should be more valuable than a similar OF. Hinske is still fresh in my memory too though. Besides, assuming their offensive potential is pretty close, why would Oakland want to trade a 3B for an OF? Does Oakland have another 3B that they think will be around for awhile? Something just doesn't smell right about it.

We have both 3B/OF Jose Bautista and 3B Edwin Encarnacion, but I doubt either will be around past this coming year.

Cooleyvol · 12-15-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beavis Christ

Knowing nothing about the Phillies farm system I think they are nuts to move Lee now. Move him at the deadline. Nothing is more valuable than SP.
And I'm pissed the Cards didn't snag Halladay.
Carpenter, Halladay, Wainright in a 7 game Playoff series.
Sign me up.

The Cards don't have near the prospects that it would have taken.

TribeFanInNC · 12-15-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

The Cards don't have near the prospects that it would have taken.

Nor the salary room to add a $20mil pitcher AND resign Senor Pujols.

TGH-Adfabre · 12-15-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Nor the salary room to add a $20mil pitcher AND resign Senor Pujols.

Sure they do, they offered Matt "Glove of Stone" Holliday over $10 mil. per. They absolutley have the room. They would not be able to sign a 2 hole hitter and bat him 4th behind Pujols, but they could do it. I know they work on a budget and I do not begrudge them that. They have been very sucessful since the DeWitts took over. This is one that would be great to make room for, I was hoping they would do it instead of Holliday last deadline. They can afford it.

TGH-Adfabre · 12-15-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

The Cards don't have near the prospects that it would have taken.

This I do not know about. Percieved prospect value is not something I stay up on.
I don't know how our prospects are seen in comparison to the ones moved in this deal.

The Phillies are bone heads for moving Lee now.

They could be very scary with him and Halliday.

Erik W. · 12-15-2009, 05:58 PM

$20MM per year is more than they can afford if they want to field a team that consists of decent players other than Pujols and the top three of the pitching staff.

As for prospects, the cupboard is bare.

Quote:

The Phillies are bone heads for moving Lee now. They could be very scary with him and Halliday.

This shows you don't really have too much concept of the salaries involved. There's no way they could have afforded to keep both, even if they could have worked out a trade without moving Lee.

Ktulu · 12-15-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

Flipping Taylor to Oakland for Wallace worries me. By everything I've read Wallace looks very very good (Taylor looks very good to me too), but I just think of how many great 3B there have been to how many great OFs (yes, there are 3 times as many OF positions, but still). Turning it around, the rare good 3B should be more valuable than a similar OF. Hinske is still fresh in my memory too though. Besides, assuming their offensive potential is pretty close, why would Oakland want to trade a 3B for an OF? Does Oakland have another 3B that they think will be around for awhile? Something just doesn't smell right about it.

We have both 3B/OF Jose Bautista and 3B Edwin Encarnacion, but I doubt either will be around past this coming year.

From everything I've read Wallace is more likely to shift over to 1B and Oakland has a bunch of 1B/DH types so that's why they'd move him. Of course the Jays have a couple of their own in Lind/Snyder, although both are capable of playing in the OF for now. Who knows, maybe the Jays could get a couple years out of Wallace at 3b before he moves over to 1B (or maybe Butterfield can work wonders and prove the skeptics wrong). The similarities to Hinske are a little concerning, similar minor league #'s (although Wallace is a year a head of where Hinske was) and similar body type.

On the other side of the coin Taylor sounds a lot like Rios, toolsy guy with high potential, but might not reach it.

darkenigma510 · 12-15-2009, 06:56 PM

Sorry to see Hallday go but think AA did a reasonable job on the trade. (Certainly better than JP would have). On the other hand, don' really understand the Wallace-Taylor trade. I know Wallace in some circles is more highly rated but it sounds like he is more the 1B/DH type than a true 3B, so why bother trade away Taylor?

crackpott · 12-15-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

Sorry to see Hallday go but think AA did a reasonable job on the trade. (Certainly better than JP would have). On the other hand, don' really understand the Wallace-Taylor trade. I know Wallace in some circles is more highly rated but it sounds like he is more the 1B/DH type than a true 3B, so why bother trade away Taylor?

That's kinda my view. I'm not sure how to feel on it, but Taylor seems more polished and like a sure thing. Wallace may be better, but also might flame out in my view.

TGH-Adfabre · 12-15-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik W.

$20MM per year is more than they can afford if they want to field a team that consists of decent players other than Pujols and the top three of the pitching staff.
As for prospects, the cupboard is bare.
This shows you don't really have too much concept of the salaries involved. There's no way they could have afforded to keep both, even if they could have worked out a trade without moving Lee.

I have no problem with them putting the money into the team and not paying off the stadium ahead of time.
Of course they could build Ball Park village too.

TGH-Adfabre · 12-15-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik W.

$20MM per year is more than they can afford if they want to field a team that consists of decent players other than Pujols and the top three of the pitching staff.

As for prospects, the cupboard is bare.

This shows you don't really have too much concept of the salaries involved. There's no way they could have afforded to keep both, even if they could have worked out a trade without moving Lee.

They are picking up the $20 mil. either way. So really we are talking about the $9 for Lee. Maybe they are incapable of that much of a financial commitment. I doubt it,

but maybe.

Green & Gold Heart · 12-15-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

Sorry to see Hallday go but think AA did a reasonable job on the trade. (Certainly better than JP would have). On the other hand, don' really understand the Wallace-Taylor trade. I know Wallace in some circles is more highly rated but it sounds like he is more the 1B/DH type than a true 3B, so why bother trade away Taylor?

The A's have a ton of 1B/DH types so it makes sense from that standpoint. They clearly didn't see him as a 3B, or a good enough 3B, or they would've kept him.

kq76 · 12-16-2009, 12:48 AM

If Wallace really is just a 1B/DH guy (he sure looks it by body type and Jayson Stark seems convinced of it as well), I really don't get this. We have Overbay whom we can't get rid of, we have Lind whom we want to move to 1B, we have Snyder who might end up being a 1B/DH type too, and we have Randy Ruiz who showed that he just might be a quality 1B/DH ballplayer for the next few years too. Either the Jays didn't know this about Wallace or they're just going to throw him at 3B and hope for the best.

Maybe what's most disturbing though is, "But while the Blue Jays and Phillies have portrayed Drabek as a top-of-the-rotation force, other clubs aren't so sure. We heard "No. 3 starter" a couple of times.". I guess that's as high as almost all SPs project, but I'll take my chances with, "Electric stuff. Hell of a competitor". Look at any great player and the one thing besides talent that they have is being a competitor. Eh, I'm still happy with Drabek. From what I read of Aumont I wasn't convinced he'd turn into anything really special.

PhillieFever · 12-16-2009, 10:33 PM

Oh boy I love it.Only here in Philly.The Phils go out,and acquire the best pitcher in baseball,and people complain.Unbelievable.

mlyons · 12-17-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Oh boy I love it.Only here in Philly.The Phils go out,and acquire the best pitcher in baseball,and people complain.Unbelievable.

Nobody's complaining about acquiring Halladay. People are complaining about trading away Lee, which was a separate trade.

LeiterFanatic · 12-17-2009, 09:18 AM

So what is the "Fan Reaction" modifier for Philly in OOTP10 anyway?

phightin · 12-17-2009, 11:54 AM

I'm not going to complain about the trade if they did it for financial flexibility with the hopes of being able to sign Howard and Werth in the next two years. What I am kind of upset about is that between the two trades for Lee and Doc they've used 7 of their top prospects. It makes me wonder what the hell JP the idiot was demanding back in July if the phils were willing to trade Drabek, Taylor, and D'Arnaud.

On a side not D'Arnaud becomes a stud in OTTP 9

12-15-2009, 04:14 PM	#42
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Now it's a four-team deal involving Oakland?! __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-15-2009, 04:45 PM	#44
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,950	Flipping Taylor to Oakland for Wallace worries me. By everything I've read Wallace looks very very good (Taylor looks very good to me too), but I just think of how many great 3B there have been to how many great OFs (yes, there are 3 times as many OF positions, but still). Turning it around, the rare good 3B should be more valuable than a similar OF. Hinske is still fresh in my memory too though. Besides, assuming their offensive potential is pretty close, why would Oakland want to trade a 3B for an OF? Does Oakland have another 3B that they think will be around for awhile? Something just doesn't smell right about it. We have both 3B/OF Jose Bautista and 3B Edwin Encarnacion, but I doubt either will be around past this coming year. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project) For Beta/Devs: Full screen (1920x1080)

12-16-2009, 12:48 AM	#56
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,950	If Wallace really is just a 1B/DH guy (he sure looks it by body type and Jayson Stark seems convinced of it as well), I really don't get this. We have Overbay whom we can't get rid of, we have Lind whom we want to move to 1B, we have Snyder who might end up being a 1B/DH type too, and we have Randy Ruiz who showed that he just might be a quality 1B/DH ballplayer for the next few years too. Either the Jays didn't know this about Wallace or they're just going to throw him at 3B and hope for the best. Maybe what's most disturbing though is, "But while the Blue Jays and Phillies have portrayed Drabek as a top-of-the-rotation force, other clubs aren't so sure. We heard "No. 3 starter" a couple of times.". I guess that's as high as almost all SPs project, but I'll take my chances with, "Electric stuff. Hell of a competitor". Look at any great player and the one thing besides talent that they have is being a competitor. Eh, I'm still happy with Drabek. From what I read of Aumont I wasn't convinced he'd turn into anything really special. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project) For Beta/Devs: Full screen (1920x1080)

12-16-2009, 10:33 PM	#57
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Elk Twp. NJ Posts: 6,763	Oh boy I love it.Only here in Philly.The Phils go out,and acquire the best pitcher in baseball,and people complain.Unbelievable. __________________ We're All Wednesday Aren't We? WAWAW

12-15-2009, 04:42 PM	#43
floorman81 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: at the Max... Posts: 117	I just don't like this trade for the Phillies at all. Lee worked well for you, he'd pitch his a$$ off because he is a free agent, and you don't give up the picks. I just don't like it.

12-15-2009, 06:56 PM	#51
darkenigma510 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Wild West Posts: 1,353	Sorry to see Hallday go but think AA did a reasonable job on the trade. (Certainly better than JP would have). On the other hand, don' really understand the Wallace-Taylor trade. I know Wallace in some circles is more highly rated but it sounds like he is more the 1B/DH type than a true 3B, so why bother trade away Taylor?

12-17-2009, 09:18 AM	#59
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,359	So what is the "Fan Reaction" modifier for Philly in OOTP10 anyway?

12-17-2009, 11:54 AM	#60
phightin All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 586	I'm not going to complain about the trade if they did it for financial flexibility with the hopes of being able to sign Howard and Werth in the next two years. What I am kind of upset about is that between the two trades for Lee and Doc they've used 7 of their top prospects. It makes me wonder what the hell JP the idiot was demanding back in July if the phils were willing to trade Drabek, Taylor, and D'Arnaud. On a side not D'Arnaud becomes a stud in OTTP 9