OOTP oversaturation ?

[tarmer]

I have been following the new league announcements for a while now, I have watched several new leagues start, Several call for new GM's and I assume several wilt away...

I have not made the jump to OOTP X yet (well because it was something I could not get budgeted in yet) but I have also seen the issues that have been creeping in with the updates for 10 which has caused it seems some issues in the online community

My question really has to do with what everyone is doing ? I know that once the new version comes out everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and be the first league to have a new version site up. Others follow and older versions get lost in the shuffle

I have put together a league (and what I think is an awesome site for it) using OOTP 8 (why you ask - well firstly because it was the last one I could upgrade to and since 10 is out there is no reason to buy 9 and secondly - Since 8 was released as free, I was hoping to also catch some "new" players now that they could well "afford" to try it)

HOME (<------ Site)

But I have had NO takers, no requests for teams, no anything - I have had a lot of hits but no one wanting to take a team.......

So to get finally to the question... does it make a difference if I move this league to X ? Would I suddenly get more managers than I could handle OR is it just that managers are not out there anymore ??? I can remember it the days of 6, 6.5, 2007 & 2008 - You could advertise crap and get a boatload of takers - Now you try and get nada...

Any Thoughts

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by tarmer

I have been following the new league announcements for a while now, I have watched several new leagues start, Several call for new GM's and I assume several wilt away...

I have not made the jump to OOTP X yet (well because it was something I could not get budgeted in yet) but I have also seen the issues that have been creeping in with the updates for 10 which has caused it seems some issues in the online community

My question really has to do with what everyone is doing ? I know that once the new version comes out everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and be the first league to have a new version site up. Others follow and older versions get lost in the shuffle

I have put together a league (and what I think is an awesome site for it) using OOTP 8 (why you ask - well firstly because it was the last one I could upgrade to and since 10 is out there is no reason to buy 9 and secondly - Since 8 was released as free, I was hoping to also catch some "new" players now that they could well "afford" to try it)

HOME (<------ Site)

But I have had NO takers, no requests for teams, no anything - I have had a lot of hits but no one wanting to take a team.......

So to get finally to the question... does it make a difference if I move this league to X ? Would I suddenly get more managers than I could handle OR is it just that managers are not out there anymore ??? I can remember it the days of 6, 6.5, 2007 & 2008 - You could advertise crap and get a boatload of takers - Now you try and get nada...

Any Thoughts

I think OOTP developers have gone out of their way to try to make things easier for commissioners to run their leagues. (Which is a good thing) In doing so, it has made it easy enough that now many more people want to run leagues because of it. Honestly back several years ago, running an OOTP league was pretty painful at times with some of the manual steps required, so this has been a good improvement.

This however is what leads to having many more online leagues then there ever was before (which also might not necessarily be a bad thing). The issue however with so many leagues is that there can only be so many leagues of the same type or you won't find people interested in your league.

The leagues that have success at getting members to join usually are either leagues that have been solid for years and had a strong following of people watching from outside of the league and have built great communities, or the other type of successful leagues are usually those with some kind of hook to get a special group of interested parties. Whether it is a historical league, or a fast-sim league, or a no-ratings league, or whatever.

I personally won't ever tell prospective future commissioners that they shouldn't open new leagues. But I would caution them to trying to realistically know what to expect from participation. If they are to open the 80th different 2009 Real rosters online league, what are they going to provide that will get coaches to join that the other 79 did not offer?


Edit: So I guess to directly answer your question... it doesn't matter as much if you upgrade or not as it would be what your product or selling point will be. I have no problem getting new members currently (knock on wood). I have a waiting list of 10+ for an ootpx league, and still have an ootp9 league running strong with no openings either. But that is because we serve a specialty niche as well as have a strong community of people. So if you have a 'selling point' you might find success from upgrading. But I'm going to guess another generic online league in ootpx won't fare as well.

[tarmer]

Thanks for the input... But that too goes to the issue - I had 2 leagues of choice at first (a historic with a twist - that was an orig. idea) and a plain jane generic league that is the same as 2 million others - What I have found is that it made no difference

No one wanted into the orig. concept league with historical players :

LEAGUE BACKSTORY

The end of the 1915 baseball season saw many changes, The Federal League whose 2 season run proved that you could have more than 1 league survive.

The lawsuits and injuctions filed against the Federal League that brought there run to an end, Opened up the eyes of the presidents and owners of the American and National Leagues.

The Federal League showed them that although "Major League Baseball" was a mainstay in the cities it was in, It was still vunerable to other ventures. As the owners got together over the off-season meetings, They realized that a majority of the professional game was being played east of the Mississippi, sure there were several scattered minor leagues throught the country, But none were quite of the scale as MLB.

The PCL who had been operating a league for years and had always hoped to make the leap to the Majors but could never quite get the major leagues to accept them. They were not only stocked with talent ( which always ended up be sold off to a Major League team) but it was also a "retirement" league as it became known by the older players. Older major leaguers who had retired would come and try to sign on for a few more seasons in hopes of drawing a few more pay checks in a more favorable climate of the West Coast.

The Northwest League was another league that had been around for years but at a much lower level than the famed PCL - It's talent usually went on to serve the PCL so it rarely made any real news since any talent it had would run off to play at PCL

With the demise of the FL, The PCL was hoping this would be the time they could finally make the leap to the Majors level, But with lack of funding and limited talent the PCL found this an overwhelming task.
Frustrated but not detered, The PCL opted for another choice - How about if they joined forces with the Northwest League and tried to pool all of their resources and try and take on the "juggernaut" major league program..

This was no easy feat they were proposing as Major League baseball had seen several league attempts fail, The Union League, Players League, Federal League etc. These leagues all failed though for different reasons, but they did fail. The lawsuits and injunctions are still fresh in the minds of the PCL as they go about approaching the planning.

Unfortunatley for the unsuspecting PCL, The remaining owners of former FL teams were planning the same idea. Most of them feeling like they were dismissed by MLB after the lawsuits, Were looking for a way to recoup their losses as well as "stick" it to the Major Leagues. These owners got together and found some other investors to help set the groundwork.

This new league would forma and play only on the West Coast to take advantage of not only the better weather but the untapped market. They would own their own teams and stadiums and most importantly their own players. They would stay away from Major Leaguers in every aspect to avoid any connection to MLB that could be once again ruled by lawsuits. Their rosters would be made up of retirees from MLB who wanted to play a few more seasons in the warmer climates of the west coast - The owners got together and formed the West Coast Baseball Association

Most of the FL players would be without work, and in need of jobs - The WCBA could not hope to land all (if any of them) to come join the league . But they were going to need all the talent they could keep to help stabilize the new League.

So the WCBA would go after all the retirees that they could sign for a few more seasons, Names like Hal Chase, Fred Clark, Roger Breshnahan and Eddie Plank - These are the players that would form the groundwork for the new league

This is their story


Every player in this league will be a "real" player - some may be more obscure than others - But they will all be real players

I took that league down because I thought it was to specific and had gotten nothing - And at the same time started a fictional "typical" league to try and broaden the user base... I guess I should put the old one back up (since it is a "hook" and pray for rain)

Thanks

[kq76]

It is a nice-looking site. It might be a bit difficult to read with the black transparency, but it does look nice at a glance. I wonder if that throws people though. It could definitely do with a menu bar at the top as I don't like having to scroll so much.

Upgrading could very well make a difference for you, it could make a huge difference, but I don't think it should be taken as a panacea either. Is Alan right that there really are a tonne more leagues than say the 6.5 days? I dunno, maybe. I think he is very much right that if your league has nothing to differentiate it from others then what's going to draw people to your league over others? Yeah, there may be a lot more "modern league" online leaguers, but I doubt they're as.. long-staying? Regardless, it really does help to have a hook of some kind.

I also can't help but think that the more visible you are at the boards here, the more likely people are going to want to join your league. Look at Alan. He helps so many people with so many things that I'm not surprised he has no problem getting members. Sure, part of it may be his league's hooks too, but who wouldn't want to be a member of a league run by a community member like Alan? I may not be nearly as much of a helper nor a commissioner, but I probably have a similar advantage in recruiting for the CBL. One person remarked to me that he figured just having an earlier join date might be an advantage and that might be true too, but I figure your visibility and reputation here in general is probably more important than simply your join date.

Still, even just posts like yours above I think help show that you care about your league and want people to join. That's promising to prospective members in itself I would think. I think some people just expect throngs to want to join without much work at all.

[spleen1015]

I don't think you're going to find people that want to join an OOTP 8 league that is starting up.

OOTP8 being free isn't gonna generate enough new online league customers, IMO.

I think you'll have better luck with an OOTPX league.

[tarmer]

I appreciate all the insight you guys share... I would love to upgrade to X but due to work circumstances cannot at the moment - But it would also be equally frustrating if I could upgrade and did so just to find the same non-interest issue.....


I removed the transparency to make it easier to read

Thank you all for your helpful thoughts

[rutri01]

Hi Tarmer,

Did you try to recruit anyone or just waiting for people to join? No came asking to join until recently. It was painful but I PM'ed anyone who I though was interested and was a good fit. I got 19 GM out of my 20 teams filled and we only lost 1 original so far. I t was a pain in the @ss but I got enough to start the league. I originally wanted 30 teams but had cut it down to 14. Back up to 20. Other than that- I don't know. I wouldn't want you to waste money and time upgrading to 10 for the same outcome. It is a great site- I was looknig forward to following the history. Maybe it's just timing and with the baseball season over - interest in low. But I do agree that there are many more leagues to join- or at least easier to find.

[tarmer]

NO.. I do not do a mass mailing - I do not want to irritate people

I figure if they see it and want to join they will - But uninvited mass mailings may damage any future endevors

[rutri01]

I only PM'ed people who said they were looking for a fictional league. At first I was like if they are too lazy to see the 20 ads- they may not be a good fit anyways. But the last 10 GMs I got are my best in the league- participation wise. Anyways- I hear ya-

I want to expand 10 more teams - but I think I going to let people come too me. It was a lot of work getting the 20 GMs I got now. I'm starting to get a few GMs come to me know that the league has been running for a while.

Some people just don't want to join a new league that will most likely stop. That happened to me a few times after my first league that I joined dibanded after 12 or 13 years. I was in 4 or 5 leagues and most of them died out. I think that adds to the problem you have and why reputation on the forums helps with recruiting. I been in sim leagues since 1994 but only on these boards recently.

[kingcharlesxii]

I haven't run a league in quite awhile but I will tell you what I look for when I join a league. I may be a typical user or not but here goes:

1) The commish is the most important thing for me. I'm unlikely to join a league where I haven't at least heard of the commish. I want to join a league that will keep running for awhile and not collapse when the commish gets bored and moves on to the next project. Most of the leagues I've been in have been because I was a GM with the commish in the past or is a well-known board personality. If know some of the other GMs, the more the better.

2) Back story. I do like leagues with an interesting idea or twist. I'm not a historical player so I can't comment on that aspect of it.

3) Good GMs. I like competing against good GMs and building up rivalries. I'm more likely to join a league if I know one of the GMs has the reputation of being really good.

And now some advice:

- Talk to some GMs and solicit ideas for a league. As you've found out, nothing is more frustrating than putting a lot of effort into a league idea and not finding a lot of interest. Before you start, just ask around what kind of league people are looking for. Find out what people want to join and make your league based on that. Ask them to join before you publish on the boards so that the league you advertise isn't empty (again, the quality of the GMs is something most people look at I'd expect).

- Keep it small. It's a lot easier to fill and keep full a smaller league. I find it also builds up more camaraderie among the owners. People are also more likely to join a league if they see you just need to fill a couple openings vs 30. The odds of the league that needs 30 to be completely full is pretty low. If it really takes off, you can always expand later. Contraction is much more annoying.

- If an online league fails and you're still interested in it, maybe make it into a solo dynasty and post it on the boards. You'll get interest in it and you'll get free advertising for any future leagues you do.

Hope this is helpful, it's just something I'd like to see more GMs do.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

Getting owners for a new league is kind of a catch-22. People are only going to join a league if it has a proven commissioner and active owners. The only way to show you're a proven commish with a group of active owners is by having people who've already joined the league.

I'd strongly discourage starting a new league if you don't have at least 1/3rd of the league already in place *before* you post your OOTP developments advertisement. A number of people will respond to an ad with no real intention or desire to play in the league. They'll send an email to join, send in a few updates, post an intro on the forum, etc. then totally disappear. You want to start off with a strong nucleus of owners that you know you can count on.

I believe the main reason OOTP "feels" oversaturated is the release date. OOTP X was released in early June, OOTP XI will probably be released in early June. Yet people still expect the release to coincide with the start of Spring Training around late-February, because that's what most other sports games do. In December, no one is going to buy OOTP X because they'll be expecting the new one to come out in a few months - when in reality, we won't even be halfway through OOTP X's lifespan as the current version. Basically, it "feels" oversaturated like we're getting a new version once every 8-9 months, when it's really a once per full year release.

[rberney]

I think there are a couple of issues.

First and foremost from what I've seen the majority of people that play in online leagues do so in a LOT of leagues. Personally I don't like this but obviously it's their choice. I'm not sure how you get attached to a league when it's one of a dozen that you are in. What it leads to in my experience is a lack of participation in any of the leagues. But my personal philosophy is that I'm very active in the league that I participate in, writing articles, doing trades, etc... whereas the few OOTP leagues that I've been in have had VERY little participation from anybody.

It's basically like playing the game yourself but allowing someone else to run it... I just don't see the draw.

Every OOTP league I've been in hasn't lasted more than a couple of years (in game) because basically everyone ends up getting bored or the commish just doesn't really pay attention.

So for me the FIRST and most important thing is a commish that HONESTLY wants to run the league and not just someone that 'thinks' it would be cool to do it out of some insane thinking that it makes him important or something.

After that finding the right people that want to participate and making sure you have a very strong core group of owners is the next important step. I have yet to run my own league because I just got out of another one that folded and although I know I could do a better job I want to get everything in order before I start my league and at this point will just wait most likely until OOTP 11 comes out and start fresh.

However, I'm very concerned about finding good owners. At this point I think the 'best' guys are in leagues that they've been in for a while... and a lot of others are just bouncing from league to league and maybe looking for the next best thing.

I feel your pain because I have a lot of questions myself as to whether or not even starting a league and taking the time and the cost associated makes any sense any longer.

[progen]

I will agree with most of the comments made here, particularly three important points.

1. Start out small and be unique as possible. I still think their is room for historical leagues and this may be the best way to start out. You can get by with just 16 GM's up until the 60's. This way you build a base of solid GM's and will more than likely get referrals too.

2. You have a nice site so that helps, but you do need to get aggressive and contact members on this forum and invite them to join. I have been in sales/marketing for 30 years and the old "build it and they will come" doesn't apply in sales or in OOTP. You need to market your league as if it was your own business. And when you contact someone, if they aren't interested, just like in sales, ask for referrals.

3. You do need to move to OOTPX. More features, and you'll get a better committed group of owners who have invested time and money into the latest version, more so than OOTP8 where anyone can now get it.

[fhomess]

Most people are using OOTP8 to scope out whether or not they want OOTPX. It's not a matter of expecting to stay with OOTP8. Secondly, the type of person who will stick with OOTP8 is likely doing so for one of two reasons: financial or commitment. Obviously, you don't want someone in your league with commitment issues, as commitment to the league is what makes it great. So go to OOTPX if you're starting a new league.

If you're having trouble starting an online league, consider starting it as a solo dynasty with the intent of moving to an online league in the future. You can develop a league following on the dynasty threads, and get your seed GM's from there. GM's will, in turn, be able to see your commitment to the league and get a good sense of the concept. Having a little bit of history to start out isn't a bad thing, either.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by fhomess

If you're having trouble starting an online league, consider starting it as a solo dynasty with the intent of moving to an online league in the future.

I actually treat the OOTP leagues that I run like I would any solo dynasty. I don't actually run a team, but instead I read through all of the stories that occur and write up articles as if it was a solo dynasty. The only difference is instead of AI running all of the teams, the teams are all run by human owners.

Just don't tell anyone in my leagues that they are all pawns in my overall story that I am telling!

[tarmer]

Originally Posted by fhomess

Secondly, the type of person who will stick with OOTP8 is likely doing so for one of two reasons: financial or commitment. Obviously, you don't want someone in your league with commitment issues, as commitment to the league is what makes it great. So go to OOTPX if you're starting a new league.

What happens when 11 comes online than are the people using 10 having the same issues you mentioned here ?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by tarmer

What happens when 11 comes online than are the people using 10 having the same issues you mentioned here ?

I think it is fairly common for some online leagues to not upgrade immediately, or upgrade slowly or even not at all for various reasons but they can do so if they already have an established community (for instance one of my leagues I run is still ootp9).

If I was to try to start a fresh ootp9 league today though, I likely would not have much success. I think it is probably more common to find players looking for a new online league to be doing so on the newest version.

(This is not always the case obviously, I know I from time to time have people interested in one of my leagues solely because it is not ootpx however)

[tarmer]

I thank you all for your input and knowledge - Since at the moment I am strapped financially due to work shortage, So I will not be able to upgrade at this particular moment. So I have decided to take what I have and do as some have suggested and continue to run it as a "dynasty / solo league"

Since I had previously invested in web space some time ago, Though I do not want to waste it - So the question than becomes how do I get people to follow along without posting here in the dynasty section ? do I need to double post - Or simply preface the league with some information and direct readers to the site ?