Redoing the Canadian City DB for OOTP

[canadiancreed]

Hello all.

For those of us that have tried to do a league involving The True North I'm sure you'll echo my annoyance of having 50% of our digital brethren coming from Toronto, with the rest of the country seemingly being considered vast wilderness when it comes to player location generation.

I'm here to try and change that.

Behold I give you the Canadian city DB project. Where I'll be going through a master list of every city, town, village, and signpost with a house nearby it and cataloging it's name, population, location, and co-ordinates

However, contrary to popular belief (and OOTP's text DB), there is civilization outside the "centre of the universe". Almost 3500 other spots in fact. At current pace it'd take me three months or more to finish. As I'm a very impatient person, I pass it onto you, my fellow OOTP'ers to join me in completing this quest for more accurate cities for this nation. If so interested, I ask you to PM me with your interest and what letter you'd like to work on (I'll be posting them in the next post).

[canadiancreed]

A - cc - being entered
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
S
T
U - cc - Entered. Waiting for information on incomplete entries.
V
Wa-We - afino - being entered
We-Wz
X - There are none in Canada?
Y - cc - Entered. Waiting for information on incomplete entries.
Z - cc - Complete.

[canadiancreed]

Uniondale, Ontario - need population
York (in Haldimand County), Ontario - need population
Young, Saskatchewan - need population
Young's Cove Road, Saskatchewan - need population

[kq76]

Good idea, but can we just submit to you cities and towns that aren't necessarily in alphabetical order? Yeah, it's not as comprehensive, but it's better than nothing. We could still have a goal like do 25, then another 25 then another if we want.

EDIT: Also do you have any tips on how best to acquire the info? I forget how I got mine, but I'm guessing I just used misc. sources. Some sources maybe better than others though.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by kq76

Good idea, but can we just submit to you cities and towns that aren't necessarily in alphabetical order? Yeah, it's not as comprehensive, but it's better than nothing. We could still have a goal like do 25, then another 25 then another if we want.

EDIT: Also do you have any tips on how best to acquire the info? I forget how I got mine, but I'm guessing I just used misc. sources. Some sources maybe better than others though.

Well I've got the list here of them all. What I could do is just send them in groups of 25. Nice and easily digestible so they're easy to do and don't' feel like you're being buried. Then I'll just edit the letter listing into subgroups for logistic purposes.

[Afino]

As my solo league is NHL-style with 40% of the players coming from Canada, I will happily participate.

Give me W.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Afino

As my solo league is NHL-style with 40% of the players coming from Canada, I will happily participate.

Give me W.

It is done!

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by kq76

Good idea, but can we just submit to you cities and towns that aren't necessarily in alphabetical order? Yeah, it's not as comprehensive, but it's better than nothing. We could still have a goal like do 25, then another 25 then another if we want.

EDIT: Also do you have any tips on how best to acquire the info? I forget how I got mine, but I'm guessing I just used misc. sources. Some sources maybe better than others though.

Myself I'm using Wikipedia as a primary source, due to it's ease of use. If it doesn't exist there (and tis' rare that it doesn't), Iv'e found that stats Canada is a good fallback. It's mostly population data that I'm running into issue with when I did run into issues. The co-ordinates are pretty spot on and if wiki doesn't' have them, Google maps usually will.

EDIT: For those that get any cities in Ontario (and to a lesser extent Quebec), these sources, especially wikipedia, wont' work as well. Thank the 90's governments for mass amalgamation for making our jobs a bit more difficult.

[RoyEarl]

Here's one..

Toronto, Ontario pop. 6,000,000

[Afino]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Myself I'm using Wikipedia as a primary source, due to it's ease of use. If it doesn't exist there (and tis' rare that it doesn't), Iv'e found that stats Canada is a good fallback. It's mostly population data that I'm running into issue with when I did run into issues. The co-ordinates are pretty spot on and if wiki doesn't' have them, Google maps usually will.

EDIT: For those that get any cities in Ontario (and to a lesser extent Quebec), these sources, especially wikipedia, wont' work as well. Thank the 90's governments for mass amalgamation for making our jobs a bit more difficult.

Yeah, I probably ran into 20-30% issues on that mass amalgamation.

Bastards. Google is still my friend.

[albatross11]

See if this site is of any help.


Directory of Cities and Towns in World

[Le Grande Orange]

If you want the most recent population counts for Canadian cities and towns, then head to the Census section of the Statistics Canada web site.

Here's the page listing the population of the 33 census metropolitan areas and the 111 census agglomerations as determined in the 2006 census (the values for the 2001 census are also listed). The smallest place on the list contains 8,987 people.

Or, you can start with this page, which is the first of thirty-six pages listing the 2006 census population counts of all the urban areas in Canada. There are a total of 899 urban areas. The smallest on the list has a population of 1,003.

If that's still not enough, then go to this page, which is the first of 52 pages listing the 2006 census population count of every designated place in Canada. There are a total of 1,289 designated places.

There are links on all these pages for downloading the data as either comma-separated or tab-separated files.

[canadiancreed]

Thanks for the links. That should help fill i a few holes quickly. Your first link is a 404 however.

[Le Grande Orange]

Try this instead: Population and Dwelling Count Highlight Tables, 2006 Census

It's the starting page for selecting which items of population count data from the 2006 census you want to view. Just pick one from the available list and make your choices on the subsequent pages as desired.


As an aside, I would note the population counts listed on this web site should supercede those found anywhere else. It is StatsCan's and the Census' job to accurately count the population, after all.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Try this instead: Population and Dwelling Count Highlight Tables, 2006 Census

It's the starting page for selecting which items of population count data from the 2006 census you want to view. Just pick one from the available list and make your choices on the subsequent pages as desired.


As an aside, I would note the population counts listed on this web site should supercede those found anywhere else. It is StatsCan's and the Census' job to accurately count the population, after all.

Makes sense. The only thing that I dont' like about StatsCan is the different result for the same town depending on what link you select. Figured Urban areas would be good for the town itself, and CMA for folks that are looking for if an area has the population to support a team.

[Muzamba]

While I can see some of the smaller communities being overlooked, I was disappointed some of the mega-burbs (Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Surrey, Laval, etc.) were missing. Admittedly, most of us south of the border have probably never heard of these places, but you can't ignore a municipality with over 600,000 residents! (And since I do have minor league teams in my fictional universe based in Mississauga and Surrey, it's all that much more relevant to me.)

Now, I suppose I should ask if you ARE, in fact, including these locales, as they are often still included in their respective core city's population.

So... um, yeah, are you?

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Muzamba

While I can see some of the smaller communities being overlooked, I was disappointed some of the mega-burbs (Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Surrey, Laval, etc.) were missing. Admittedly, most of us south of the border have probably never heard of these places, but you can't ignore a municipality with over 600,000 residents! (And since I do have minor league teams in my fictional universe based in Mississauga and Surrey, it's all that much more relevant to me.)

Now, I suppose I should ask if you ARE, in fact, including these locales, as they are often still included in their respective core city's population.

So... um, yeah, are you?

IN a nutshell; yes. For example the GTA will not be treated as one megamass that extends from Hamilton to Oshawa, but instead will be what it was beforehand, with having separate cities that youd' see when driving along the QEW (Hamilton, Oakville, Burlington, Mississauga, etc...). That's a given. The grey area is whether the chop up cities further. For example should neighbourhoods of large cities be treated as their own city? SHould York and Verdun be listed seperately, or be treated as part of the urban mass that is Toronto and MOntreal (as they would in the census for the urban area.) That's pretty much the grey area right now. Thankfully ther'es very few cities in Canada that have this problem (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver.....possibly Ottawa?)

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Muzamba

Now, I suppose I should ask if you ARE, in fact, including these locales, as they are often still included in their respective core city's population.

The same questions arise when using U.S. census data. You have the population of the city/town proper, and you have the population of the metropolitan/micropolitan statistical area. For example, San Francisco and Oakland may be separate cities, but the U.S. Census Bureau considers them part of the same metropolitan statistical area due to the degree of economic and social integration between the two.

What ultimately matters is the area population rather than the population of the city/town proper. Ideally, places could have two population counts listed: one for the core city/town, and the other for the area.

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

IN a nutshell; yes. For example the GTA will not be treated as one megamass that extends from Hamilton to Oshawa, but instead will be what it was beforehand, with having separate cities that youd' see when driving along the QEW (Hamilton, Oakville, Burlington, Mississauga, etc...). That's a given. The grey area is whether the chop up cities further. For example should neighbourhoods of large cities be treated as their own city? SHould York and Verdun be listed seperately, or be treated as part of the urban mass that is Toronto and MOntreal (as they would in the census for the urban area.) That's pretty much the grey area right now. Thankfully ther'es very few cities in Canada that have this problem (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver.....possibly Ottawa?)

I think part of the confusion is in the way municipalities are defined in Canada vs. the US. I also tend to use Wikipedia as my primary reference, but it's often hard to determine whether a given location is a neighborhood of a larger city and is a separate municipality altogether. In the US, it's usually rather straightforward, except when dealing with unique divisions like townships, hamlets, and boroughs in the Northeast. For instance, Hollywood, CA is a neighborhood within Los Angeles, so it doesn't appear as a separate entity in most lists. However, Mesa, AZ is a distinctly-separate suburb of Phoenix, even though it's part of the Phoenix Metropolitan Area. So it's almost always listed separately.

Now, in Canada, you have situations like GTA, where the divisions are a little less clear. For instance, Hamilton is ALWAYS listed separately. However, Mississauga is sometimes lumped in with the City of Toronto. York, on the other hand, is usually included as part of the City of Toronto, but occasionally shows up as its own city.

And yes, this primarily occurs in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Ottawa. I mentioned some of the examples I found in the first 3, but I neglected to mention the ommission of Gatineau and Hull in the Ottawa area. While I believe I read that Hull is no longer officially a separate city, I believe Gatineau still is.

Then there are places like St. Catharines-Niagara, which are listed as one city in the OOTP database. Waterloo isn't listed at all, even though it doesn't seem to be included in Kitchener's population, as far as I can tell.

Unless someone can definitvely clarify which of these places are their own municipalities and which are merely neighborhoods, I'd personally prefer that they be listed as unique entries in the database.

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The same questions arise when using U.S. census data. You have the population of the city/town proper, and you have the population of the metropolitan/micropolitan statistical area. For example, San Francisco and Oakland may be separate cities, but the U.S. Census Bureau considers them part of the same metropolitan statistical area due to the degree of economic and social integration between the two.

What ultimately matters is the area population rather than the population of the city/town proper. Ideally, places could have two population counts listed: one for the core city/town, and the other for the area.

I agree with you, especially when it comes to determining locations for teams. Metropolitan areas are MUCH more important than the city proper. Perfect example: El Paso, Texas is one of the 20 largest cities in the US. However, it only ranks in the top 75 or so in terms of metro area, since it's basically surrounded by desert and very few suburbs on the US side. And since Juarez in Mexico isn't counted by the Census Bureau, it has a very low population outside its urban core.

Now, when it comes to player origins, I can see it both ways. Honestly, if a player is from suburban Milwaukee, you typically won't hear anyone describe him as being from "South Milwaukee Heights". He's just from "Milwaukee". Of course, if you're from, say, the Nashville area and you read that so-and-so is from "Paradise Valley Estates", you might know that to be an affluent area and make certain assumptions about his background. So if you're someone like me who really wants to imagine his fictional players are real people, distinguishing between various suburbs may add to the realism.

And that's why I do wish OOTP allowed for a more in-depth customization. (I'd like players to have their birthplace AND their current hometown listed. Birthplace is admittedly useful in determing factors like name and ethnicity, but their current hometown would be a more realistic criterion to use for free agency.) Hopefully, Markus will consider expanding the customization possibilities of the peripheral aspects of the game in future versions.

For now, though, I'm most interested in continuity. So if it's determined that Mississauga is the administrative equivalent to Mesa and York is the equivalent to Hollywood. I'd like to see that reflected in the revised database, with Mississauga a separate entry and York not.