More realistic injury file

[CalvinHobbes]

This was written by Matter earlier and is what makes me excited for this file:

"It didn't technically eliminate CEI's....it just made how they happen realistic with teh way they actually happen. When players are injured and suffer a setback, there is a small chance they will choose not to rehab and end their career instead, which is consistent with players attempting to come back from an injury and not being able to..."

I think, if that works as he says, that is awesome. It seems that most of the examples provided by Injury Log were to older players who just didn't want to do the rehab any more. Or were injuries to the same body part that had previously been injured. I also think that this should then affect the older veterans, rather than the younger players. Although I guess you could have a lazy slugger who's made millions and has just decided he'd rather retire than work to get back to the game.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by Dr. Wu

Well, injury log just did.

You can disagree with him, but he's made an argument.

Point taken- but just because I argue that the world is flat doesn't make it valid. Every single guy on that list of his (with the possible exception of Encarnacion) had an injury history before deciding to retire (or change positions). No GOOD argument can be made that OOTP models that well...or at all, really.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by satchel

In your game, you'd prefer for a player, whose injury makes him permanently ineffective, to "flounder for several seasons on benches," instead of just retiring? In my universe, that's dead weight, and a situation which I have no desire to model.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? Where did I say "permanent" or "ineffective"? The word I used was marginal- you know, as in "debatably useful"? In any case, it is realistic- or at least infinitely more so than it is now. Only in hindsight can you say he's "dead weight". If you didn't have the exact ratings to look at, you'd never know he wouldn't eventually recover to some semblance of his former self. Do you think Mo Vaughn would have hung around for as long as he did had it not been for his incredible history of past production? I never said YOU personally have to take a chance on a guy- go ahead- cut him- other teams or GM's may not be as clairvoyant as you, or may want to assume that risk. This happens every single day with players in baseball. I never claimed it was the most appetizing part of the game. On the other hand, the other side of that coin is a team like Cincinnati claiming Josh Hamilton in the Rule 5 draft 3 years ago...How did that turn out?

I have no desire to sign a guy to $100MM contract and watch him go into the pooper soon after either, but you can't argue that it happens- or that it isn't realistic....You're saying you would rather know the instant a guy passes his expiration date so you can cut him? How does that in any way, shape or form resemble the game of baseball? We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess.

[Stu]

The way I see the two files is this:

Original file:
- Realistic number of CEI injuries (as realistic as OOTP can get them)
- Not as realistic in how your arrive there (ie "instant" CEIs)

Edited file:
- Not a realistic number of CEI
- More realistic in how you arrive there (ie "setback" CEIs)

More realistic depends entirely on your viewpoint and which is more important to you. I don't think a lot of people understand the limitations of the injury system in OOTP and that problems exist that no injury file can fix.

[Malleus Dei]

If you like the stock version, use it. If you like Matter's, use it. If you don't like either one, get out a text editor and make your own like I did. Just don't fight about it, because this is all about personal preference.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Stu

The way I see the two files is this:

Original file:
- Realistic number of CEI injuries (as realistic as OOTP can get them)
- Not as realistic in how your arrive there (ie "instant" CEIs)

Edited file:
- Not a realistic number of CEI
- More realistic in how you arrive there (ie "setback" CEIs)

More realistic depends entirely on your viewpoint and which is more important to you. I don't think a lot of people understand the limitations of the injury system in OOTP and that problems exist that no injury file can fix.

Well said, realistic is in the eye of the beholder.

Isn't it nice to have a newly released OOTP where an argument over the injury model is the hottest topic

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

Point taken- but just because I argue that the world is flat doesn't make it valid. Every single guy on that list of his (with the possible exception of Encarnacion) had an injury history before deciding to retire (or change positions). No GOOD argument can be made that OOTP models that well...or at all, really.

But a GOOD argument can be made when it is made with the OOTP injury model in mind. Changing the file is not going to change the injury model itself.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by Sweed

But a GOOD argument can be made when it is made with the OOTP injury model in mind. Changing the file is not going to change the injury model itself.

It does though. Again, it causes players to retire (in some cases)- because of the degradation to their skills- and not strictly (and immediately) because of the injury. In my mind, it makes the game act a little more realistically. Obviously, others disagree- that's fine. I don't even use the file in question- I have my own- but I know that it is possible to alter the injury model in the fashion described in this thread to at least moderate success. It certainly isn't perfect, but I prefer it over the default.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

Point taken- but just because I argue that the world is flat doesn't make it valid. Every single guy on that list of his (with the possible exception of Encarnacion) had an injury history before deciding to retire (or change positions). No GOOD argument can be made that OOTP models that well...or at all, really.

The facts are these:

-in OOTP, injury proneness increases as a player gets injured. Older players, and players with an injury history, are therefore more likely to be injured again. They are therefore more likely to incur a CEI. Because OOTP breaks proneness into categories by body part, a player with a previous arm injury is more likely to incur an arm injury CEI than a player without any history of arm injury. So to say that OOTP is incapable of modeling that 'at all, really' is simply incorrect;

-that said, OOTP does not model this properly, which is a different issue. Ideally OOTP would track which severe injuries a player had suffered in the past, and the type of each injury. A player who has returned from an elbow injury likely shouldn't be at increased risk of retiring if he goes on to suffer a serious finger injury. OOTP could do better here;

-because injury proneness increases over time, older players are also more likely than younger players to suffer a CEI in OOTP. I wouldn't say OOTP models this precisely, but the effect is built into the game.

I'd add that I'm not interested in discussing what amount to ad hominem arguments (saying an argument is not 'GOOD' doesn't make the argument any less good, no matter how many capital letters you use), and nor am I interested in discussing straw men (one example doesn't prove a rule, it only proves the example - to say something happened to Mo Vaughn only proves that what happened to Mo Vaughn can happen in real life, not that all players are like Mo Vaughn). I'll stick to the facts if everyone else can as well.

[injury log]

And I'd add that I think Stu's summary above is a very good description of the limitations of OOTP's model, and the motivations for including CEIs, given those limitations. Now, if you don't want CEIs:

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

This was written by Matter earlier and is what makes me excited for this file:

"It didn't technically eliminate CEI's....it just made how they happen realistic with teh way they actually happen..."

I think, if that works as he says, that is awesome.

This is a feature of the game's injury model, not of the injuries.txt file. From any injury file, you can force all CEIs to be of the type above. You simply need to:

-save a copy of injuries.txt in case something goes wrong
-open injuries.txt in any text editor
-the fourth number in each row is the CEI boolean. For each injury it will either be '0' or '1'. Change all the '1's to '0's;
-save the file, reload your league, and you will have no more instant CEIs.

That takes about three minutes to do.

[highandoutside]

I apologize at the outset for not having the time to wade through this whole thread to find the answer to the question I am going to ask...

Can anybody just let us know which injury file in their mind best mimics the real life frequency and duration of injuries? I'm not really worried about the CEI or the types of injuries. I just want injuries to play the same role in roster management that they do in real life.

Thanks.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by injury log

The facts are these:

-in OOTP, injury proneness increases as a player gets injured. Older players, and players with an injury history, are therefore more likely to be injured again. They are therefore more likely to incur a CEI. Because OOTP breaks proneness into categories by body part, a player with a previous arm injury is more likely to incur an arm injury CEI than a player without any history of arm injury. So to say that OOTP is incapable of modeling that 'at all, really' is simply incorrect;

-that said, OOTP does not model this properly, which is a different issue. Ideally OOTP would track which severe injuries a player had suffered in the past, and the type of each injury. A player who has returned from an elbow injury likely shouldn't be at increased risk of retiring if he goes on to suffer a serious finger injury. OOTP could do better here;

-because injury proneness increases over time, older players are also more likely than younger players to suffer a CEI in OOTP. I wouldn't say OOTP models this precisely, but the effect is built into the game.

I'd add that I'm not interested in discussing what amount to ad hominem arguments (saying an argument is not 'GOOD' doesn't make the argument any less good, no matter how many capital letters you use), and nor am I interested in discussing straw men (one example doesn't prove a rule, it only proves the example - to say something happened to Mo Vaughn only proves that what happened to Mo Vaughn can happen in real life, not that all players are like Mo Vaughn). I'll stick to the facts if everyone else can as well.

I don't recall "discussing" Mo Vaughn with you. In fact, I agree, Mo Vaughn has no relevance to your argument or mine. Nor did I mention him in regard to anything you posted...So I am unsure of why you are bringing him up. I used him as an example to another poster in regards to the complexity of determining if a player is "finished"- it isn't cut and dry, and it's part of the intrigue of game for me.....You are correct that one example doesn't prove anything- but if you disagree with that general premise, than no amount of examples will convince you anyway.....It's all beside the point of the general argument in any case. If you want to take issue with that statement, than do so under the context in which I presented it- and quote the appropriate thread.

In terms of the general injury model- which I DID take issue with, I will defer to your expertise and knowledge on how the game operates. To be clear: Whatever it's intent and mode of operation, I would prefer to never see a player- of any age- (although I agree it would be much more realistic for an older player) retire immediately because of one injury. Whatever the model is- I see this way too often. I maintain it can't be defended with statistics under these specific circumstances. You gave several examples- only a fraction of which were relevant to your point- about players retiring "suddenly" with a CEI. The others were just bad examples, and in any case, as you like to say:

...nor am I interested in discussing straw men (one example doesn't prove a rule, it only proves the example - to say something happened to Mo Vaughn only proves that what happened to Mo Vaughn can happen in real life, not that all players are like Mo Vaughn...

I would say that is spot on, and is why I maintain that citing one or two examples of a player that might have "retired" immediately- or close to it- because of a CEI is not evidence that this is general practice. You can't have it both ways.

I think you are agreeing with me that this should be modeled better; I am simply saying that I believe eliminating CEI's as they are currently construed will instantly make this part of the game better- as players will now retire due to eroding skills caused by the injury- but over time- not over night. I guess you don't agree with this part?

[satchel]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

Where did I say "permanent" or "ineffective"?

You didn't use those exact words, and I didn't claim that you did.

You said

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

...a corresponding ratings drop that renders their skills marginal.

which implies the same thing.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

I would say that is spot on, and is why I maintain that citing one or two examples of a player that might have "retired" immediately- or close to it- because of a CEI is not evidence that this is general practice. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not trying to have it both ways - if I want to establish that something happens in real life, I only need one example of it happening to do so. There are certainly examples of players being injured in real life, and retiring very soon thereafter. I was responding to a few previous posts that said this never happens, when it very clearly does.

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

I think you are agreeing with me that this should be modeled better; I am simply saying that I believe eliminating CEI's as they are currently construed will instantly make this part of the game better- as players will now retire due to eroding skills caused by the injury- but over time- not over night. I guess you don't agree with this part?

I agree entirely that this should be better modeled. I wrote quite a detailed post above outlining how I think OOTP could better model real life, so I won't reprise that here.

As Stu pointed out above, there are fairly severe limitations with OOTP's injury model, and there's a tradeoff: you can either have a fairly realistic number of CEIs which aren't always reported the way you'd expect, based on real life; or you can have too few CEIs, most of which are reported as in real life. That's simply down to personal preference, but fortunately it's an easy matter to either enable or disable 'instant' CEIs by modifying the injuries.txt file. My main point is that either way, your game will be realistic in some ways, and unrealistic in others.

[OldFatGuy]

And to add more food for thought, if it did model CEI's "more realistically" wouldn't that also require some other adjustments?

I mean, I'd always heard the "instant" CEI was a way to easily mimic RL without having to add in all the other financial options of insurance, etc. In other words, the game leaves out insurance and those choices/options as well as that additional revenue/expense stream, and by having CEI's being instant and a "free" release, this is a simple way of simulating all of that.

I guess I'm trying to say a lot of folks unhappy with the realism (or lack thereof) of the instant CEI's are then, I'm thinking, going to become also quite unhappy when their financials are totally out of control because they're having to pay millions over several years while the player "considers" retiring, meanwhile with no new revenues or offsets (like insurance), thus making it a double whammy. You've lost that stud AND you've lost millions in money to try and replace that stud.

It seems like the system does a decent enough job of simulating all of that in a very simple, straightforward way. But, like the game says, "It's your game; play it your way!"

[pstrickert]

Perhaps the news stories for CEIs could read: "This may end so-and-so's career." Then -- at season's end -- the game engine could decide whether (1) the player's career is definitely over; or (2) the player will resume his career the next season. If (1), then a news story is produced to announce the retirement. If (2), the player resumes his career, but in all likelihood with a ratings hit (to be determined by the game engine). Then, his team (if he's under contract) must decide what to do. I would prefer this to an immediate decision to retire. I would also prefer this (especially a retirement decision at the end of the season) to the possibility (as IRL) that the player could take 2 or 3 years to retire, finally, after reinjuring himself in spring training, languishing in the minors, etc. Again, it would be decided in the off-season whether or not the player retires. If he does not retire, he can play in the league -- but most likely not at the same level as before.

[CalvinHobbes]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I'm thinking, going to become also quite unhappy when their financials are totally out of control because they're having to pay millions over several years while the player "considers" retiring, meanwhile with no new revenues or offsets (like insurance), thus making it a double whammy. You've lost that stud AND you've lost millions in money to try and replace that stud.

Couldn't you just release him? I'm pretty sure that when you release someone you save what is remaining in their salary. I guess then you have to make the difficult decision of just giving up on the player.

[NCBeachBum]

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

Couldn't you just release him? I'm pretty sure that when you release someone you save what is remaining in their salary. I guess then you have to make the difficult decision of just giving up on the player.

Retirement: Team doesn't have to pay rest of salary.

Release: Team does have to pay rest of salary.



I don't know what this has to do with the discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway (with apologies to Bill James): In the last couple of years the number of contracts being insured has gone down drastically. The insurance companies raised the rates so much that most teams have decided that the risk of the contract is better than the guarantee of the premiums.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by satchel

You didn't use those exact words, and I didn't claim that you did.

You said

Quote:
Originally Posted by NomarHits400 View Post
...a corresponding ratings drop that renders their skills marginal.



which implies the same thing.

No, it doesn't. Since when are "marginally effective" and "permanently ineffective" synonymous?...That's ridiculous.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

Couldn't you just release him? I'm pretty sure that when you release someone you save what is remaining in their salary. I guess then you have to make the difficult decision of just giving up on the player.

Ordinarily, no, if you release a player with say 5 years, $10 million per year, then you'd be charged with $50,000,000. (Of course OOTP does this "unrealistically" as well, as it charges all $50,000,000 at once whereas in RL you'd get to pay it out over the 5 years).

However, as it currently is set up, if a player suffers a CEI, then, the next day, you can release him "free." If however, the CEI weren't "instant", and instead he's just listed as injured, then you would be charged his salary as long he's injured and on your roster and if you released him while injured but before he retired then you'd be charged with all the remaining money left on his contract.