More realistic injury file

[bababui]

Originally Posted by injury log

And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, there are far more instant CEIs in real baseball than some people think, judging by some of the posts in this thread.

There are virtually no instant CEI. Some injuries turn out to be CE but its only because they dont heal correctly or the player is too old or the doc was negligent. So, in retrospect, while some injuries appear to be instantly CE, they are actually not.

[MB.Pelicans]

Originally Posted by injury log

And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, there are far more instant CEIs in real baseball than some people think, judging by some of the posts in this thread.

I dare you to name even 10 players that have retired instantly because of a CEI. I can go back as far as the late 70's in my general baseball knowledge and in this modern medical era, it just doesn't happen.

[DUBBOH11]

I'm with Calvinhobbes here, if people want to try and make the game "better", why are people upset by this. I wish there were less long (multiple month) injuries to batters and instead, more to pitchers. I think there should be more 2-3 week injuries for players and less for pitchers.

And of course the CEI thing is weird. I have never seen a player get hurt and a couple days later his career proclaimed over. Almost ever player tries to come back (except for age, instant CEIs might be feasable for over 35 players). CEIs happen after the player comes back and just doesnt have it anymore or reinjuries himself rather quickly.

I hope matter countiues this file a gets it to work perfectly because i think it would be more realistic if this changes were made.



P.s. Instand CEIs for minor leaguers without much potential would seem to work aas well since those guys might give up baseball after a major injury. I know it would be hard for the computer to determine a guys potential and decide if he would give up baseball.

[Matter2003]

Originally Posted by endgame

Call this my little bitch for the day; it doesn't hurt, really. It's only another opinion and given it's mine assures some likelihood it will be, as time ensues, ignored or forgotten.

Well, everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, I am not sure why there has been so much negativity from some corners of the OOTP world, but it really doesn't bother me one way or the other. Fire away if it makes you feel better.

Originally Posted by endgame

It annoys me - perhaps too strong a word, but it's a fresh one - continuing to see this thread title: "More realistic injury file." Frankly, it isn't. It is most certainly an "Alternative Injury File", and it may be one particular styles, or users of sensitive temperament, may prefer; not a model of real life and not in keeping with the philosophies and regiment built into the existing model for injury built into the game.

While I respect your opinion, I definitely disagree with it. Frankly, it IS a more realistic injury file. The injury definitions are more realistic, the lengths of time for the injuries are more realistic, and the removal of the nonsensical insta-CEI is more realistic.

From what was said earlier in the thread, the data is based off of the 2007 injuries in MLB. It is great someone finally went and decided to take real world information and use it to make and injury file. However, the issue is that just because 1 or 2 players had a sprained shoulder that lasted 4 weeks that year in 2007, does not mean that every single player who gets that injury from that point forward will be out for 4 weeks. So what I basically did was go thru the injury file line by line and adjust many(read, NOT all) of the min/max times based on multiple injury reports from the past 5 years and also looked at the suggested recovery time for the injury from various medical sites. What this did is broaden the lengths of time a player might be out for a specific injury. Many times the injury min was lowered, so the player could be out LESS time. Some cases, the injury max was changed as well--sometimes lowered, sometimes raised. There is currently a player(Corie Koskie) who is suffering from post concussion syndrome who has still not returned to play after 18 months, and they have no idea when he might be able to, if at all. Is it not realistic then that I changed the max time to 550 days? Is it realistic to think that every time someone got a bruised heel or a similar injury, they would be out for exactly 3 days. That is more realistic than perhaps making it a min/max of 2/4 or 2/5? What I am supposed to believe is that every baseball player in the known universe from 2007 to whenever the league runs to is going to be out exactly 3 days with this injury? Sorry---I just can't. It logically doesn't make much sense to me...It is supposed to model injuries---not for only what happened in 1 season, but for what is possible to happen in many seasons.

Originally Posted by endgame

With some hesitancy - and admitted uncertainty - I have trouble comparing a new and improved public offering seemingly snatched from a nearly newborn release and purported to suddenly be developing and shaping itself into the form of walking, talking, community-embraced dogma to one that has been painstakingly researched, implemented with meticulous care to represent the physical realities of the baseball world; still evolving to encapsulate even the deeper intricacies still in the hands of the developer's judgment.

It actually has been pretty well researched. Every injury in that file has been put thru multiple search engines pulling up various players that have had the injury over the last 5 seasons or so. The best sites are the fantasy sites that track the players injury, progress, and then his return so you get an exact time of how long he was out for. Each one also has been thoroughly looked at thru various medical sites that give an estimate of how long the injury takes to heal. The argument from me is not that the injury file doesn't represent the year 2007 in the MLB perfectly well. It is that the year 2007 doesn't represent every other year in the MLB, well enough to only go by injury durations for that year.

Originally Posted by endgame

I still attempt to respect its modder & mod, but cannot help but feel in that odd contrast, a sense of disrespect to the predecessor; one that should not be usurped in a vacuum, or a void that fails to scrutinize its pretender. Data does not just fall together haphazardly with tweaks, updates, trials, and the search for a mythical 'balance'. This is design by sound, i.e. work at it until it creates an environment that makes the least amount of noise and call that a success. That does not define realistic. It not only defies realism, but defines service to a select community crying, "Make it stop! It's injuring my players!"

I have no disrespect to injury log---in fact I have numerous PM's to Markus before OOTP X was in beta testing pleading for him to use the injury information injury log came up with and exchanging testy PM's with him in regards to the injury system in OOTP 9 being totally unrealistic. I gave up because he seemingly had no inclination of changing anything after about 3 or 4 PM's were exchanged. The entire balancing of the injury file that I was referring to comes from adding very specific injury definitions to the file, which greatly increased the number of that type of injury. For instance rib, finger and toe injuries have 8 varieties, while most other ones(shoulder, hand, etc) only have 2 or 3. To balance this I needed to add more of the other injuries so rib, finger and toe injuries didn't spike to unrealistic proportions. So yes, in some ways, the balancing of the file is still ongoing---however, with that being said, I STILL believe it is more realistic than the original file. You are free to disagree with that if you choose. However, when you are arguing that every person in baseball who suffers forearm inflammation will be out 119 to 120 days with nothing in between(which is what is in the original file) when I just found a case of a pitcher missing only his next start with the same injury, I probably am not going to pay that much attention...

Originally Posted by endgame

Torn between the inclination to terminate my diatribe and move on to how a quick and thoughtless embrace of a seemingly novel idea implicates others in ways unsolicited: Tech Support must now add to the already repetitious and incessant inquiries, "Which injury.txt are you using? Is it one you've modified or is it Matter's? Are you using the game-installed injury.txt?" I'll defer to my first and end this. Rage on, but rage rightly.

Perhaps the bug that screws up the injury DB reimport should just be fixed instead, since it is not working properly...It is not my fault that this does not work properly, so tech support should take its misplaced anger/irritation/upsetness and direct at the proper source...if anything, I just located a bug that needs to be fixed that very few would have known about otherwise...

[Sans Pystal]

What's the difference?

It is a more realistic injury file to him. If you agree with him, then you use it when playing your game. If you disagree with him, then you use what you consider to be the more realistic injury file that came with the game.

It would take a whole lot of wasted effort to shift this into the philosophical realm.

More.
Realistic.
Injury.
File.

Whatever.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sans Pystal

What's the difference?

It is a more realistic injury file to him. If you agree with him, then you use it when playing your game. If you disagree with him, then you use what you consider to be the more realistic injury file that came with the game.

It would take a whole lot of wasted effort to shift this into the philosophical realm.

More.
Realistic.
Injury.
File.

Whatever.

+1.

The CEI's being changed is what I am excited about with this injury file. I cant think of one 26 year All Star to get hurt and retire with a career ending injury without giving himself a couple more chances to comeback. Even in the NFL this isnt as common as it is in the default file.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by MB.Pelicans

I dare you to name even 10 players that have retired instantly because of a CEI. I can go back as far as the late 70's in my general baseball knowledge and in this modern medical era, it just doesn't happen.

In the past three years alone, off the top of my head:

Matt Mantei (retired instantly after injury, ST last year)
Brian Anderson (retired instantly after injury, ST last year)
Mike Matheny (post-concussion syndrome)
Corey Koskie (retired this ST due to post-concussion syndrome)
Juan Encarnacion (fractured eye socket)
Adam Loewen (retired immediately from pitching after injury last year)
Juan Lara (off-field accident)
Nick Adenhart (fatality)
Josh Hancock (fatality)

This year Hong-Chih Kuo has announced he'll retire if he needs another surgery, and since he has a degenerative elbow condition, he could be done. Eric Chavez's back injury was announced as being potentially career ending when it happened. Adam Miller's finger injury, same thing. A lot of reports say Jason Isringhausen's career is over after his latest elbow injury.

Some of these you can debate whether they're best modeled as setback/CEIs or instant CEIs, and those aren't debates I'm interested in having, but some were clearly instantaneous. Note that, for contractual reasons, players will sometimes attempt a comeback even when a comeback has no chance of success; in OOTP, there's no reason not to model such injuries as instant CEIs. You can debate what OOTP should do to model real life off-field career enders at the moment (since off-field injuries don't end careers in OOTP), but real life careers do end suddenly off-field, and the only chance of modeling that in OOTP is through on-field injury. Whether you want that in your personal version of the game is a different story of course.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Matter2003

While I respect your opinion, I definitely disagree with it. Frankly, it IS a more realistic injury file. The injury definitions are more realistic, the lengths of time for the injuries are more realistic, and the removal of the nonsensical insta-CEI is more realistic.

I understand where endgame is coming from when I see statements of opinion being presented as though they were statements of fact. Instant CEIs are not unrealistic; they happen. The injury descriptions in the file are taken verbatim from real life injury reports, so I'm not sure what's unrealistic about them. The injury durations are sometimes narrowly defined; this is necessary because of how OOTP selects injuries in-game. If the duration 'window' is too wide, the injury will appear often, so rare injuries should have narrow windows. Getting this to work exactly as in real life requires a ton of work, testing, editing, and testing again, and it isn't right with the default file, but for most injuries it's close, and the file was adjusted for the first patch to fix some issues. The introduction of the frequency parameter, which happened too late in beta for me to test it extensively, should offer a bit more flexibility here, and there's no question the file can be improved. Still, whether you make 'forearm inflammation' last from 119-120 days, or from 110-130 days, it will still be reported to users as a '4 month' injury when it happens. It's only if you look at the injury file that it will bother you. There are milder versions of the same injury in the file to cover the shorter duration versions, so it's not relevant that some real life players miss a week with a similar injury - that's covered by 'forearm soreness'. The problem with simply adjusting all of these duration windows to match the range of real life durations you might find reported is that doing this will make some injuries far more common than in real life, and other injuries far less common than they should be. The goal was not to get injuries to last for the same durations as in some real life baseball season; it's to make hamstring strains occur as often in OOTP as they do in reality. And they happen a lot.

Originally Posted by Matter2003

There is currently a player(Corie Koskie) who is suffering from post concussion syndrome who has still not returned to play after 18 months, and they have no idea when he might be able to, if at all. Is it not realistic then that I changed the max time to 550 days?

You can change the max to 550 days if you want; the game won't use it. And Corey Koskie is retired, due to injury.

Originally Posted by Matter2003

Perhaps the bug that screws up the injury DB reimport should just be fixed instead, since it is not working properly...It is not my fault that this does not work properly, so tech support should take its misplaced anger/irritation/upsetness and direct at the proper source...if anything, I just located a bug that needs to be fixed that very few would have known about otherwise...

I logged the reimport bug in 2007. I don't think it's ever been fixed, but I've mentioned in countless threads that the reimport button should be avoided; to reimport injuries.txt, save the new copy of injuries.txt to the relevant folder and reload your league (no need to quit OOTP).

[gosensgo101]

Originally Posted by injury log

Adam Loewen (retired immediately from pitching after injury last year)

Switching position can hardly be compared with retiring. If he wasn't switching position I'm sure he would've taken a lot more time to think about it.\

Also, Corey Koskie did not retire immediately. He had been suffering from the injury for over a year.

[MB.Pelicans]

Originally Posted by injury log

In the past three years alone, off the top of my head:

Matt Mantei (retired instantly after injury, ST last year)
Brian Anderson (retired instantly after injury, ST last year)
Mike Matheny (post-concussion syndrome)
Corey Koskie (retired this ST due to post-concussion syndrome)
Juan Encarnacion (fractured eye socket)
Adam Loewen (retired immediately from pitching after injury last year)
Juan Lara (off-field accident)
Nick Adenhart (fatality)
Josh Hancock (fatality)

This year Hong-Chih Kuo has announced he'll retire if he needs another surgery, and since he has a degenerative elbow condition, he could be done. Eric Chavez's back injury was announced as being potentially career ending when it happened. Adam Miller's finger injury, same thing. A lot of reports say Jason Isringhausen's career is over after his latest elbow injury.

Some of these you can debate whether they're best modeled as setback/CEIs or instant CEIs, and those aren't debates I'm interested in having, but some were clearly instantaneous. Note that, for contractual reasons, players will sometimes attempt a comeback even when a comeback has no chance of success; in OOTP, there's no reason not to model such injuries as instant CEIs. You can debate what OOTP should do to model real life off-field career enders at the moment (since off-field injuries don't end careers in OOTP), but real life careers do end suddenly off-field, and the only chance of modeling that in OOTP is through on-field injury. Whether you want that in your personal version of the game is a different story of course.

Anderson, Koskie and Mantei retired after setbacks from rehab, not new injuries. So they already had their CEI and didn't give up.

Encarnacion's injury was not career ending until his vision never got better after surgery

Last I checked Loewen is not retired since he is an OF in A ball for the Jays

There is truly no such thing as an a CEI in the OOTP sense, because of the modern medical system

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by injury log

In the past three years alone, off the top of my head:

Matt Mantei (retired instantly after injury, ST last year)
Brian Anderson (retired instantly after injury, ST last year)
Mike Matheny (post-concussion syndrome)
Corey Koskie (retired this ST due to post-concussion syndrome)
Juan Encarnacion (fractured eye socket)
Adam Loewen (retired immediately from pitching after injury last year)
Juan Lara (off-field accident)
Nick Adenhart (fatality)
Josh Hancock (fatality)

This year Hong-Chih Kuo has announced he'll retire if he needs another surgery, and since he has a degenerative elbow condition, he could be done. Eric Chavez's back injury was announced as being potentially career ending when it happened. Adam Miller's finger injury, same thing. A lot of reports say Jason Isringhausen's career is over after his latest elbow injury.

Some of these you can debate whether they're best modeled as setback/CEIs or instant CEIs, and those aren't debates I'm interested in having, but some were clearly instantaneous. Note that, for contractual reasons, players will sometimes attempt a comeback even when a comeback has no chance of success; in OOTP, there's no reason not to model such injuries as instant CEIs. You can debate what OOTP should do to model real life off-field career enders at the moment (since off-field injuries don't end careers in OOTP), but real life careers do end suddenly off-field, and the only chance of modeling that in OOTP is through on-field injury. Whether you want that in your personal version of the game is a different story of course.

For the sake of clarification, I checked the history of these players, IL. Except for Adenhart and Hancock, none of them retired "instantly" or "immediately."

Mantei: injured in 2005, retired in ST 2008
Anderson: injured in 2005, retired in ST 2008
Matheny: injured in May 2006, retired in Feb 2007
Koskie: injured in July 2006, retired in ST 2009
Encarnacion: injured in Aug 2007, filed for FA in Nov 2008, still not officially retired (?)
Loewen: injured in early 2007, converted to OF/1B later in 2007, signed minor-league contract in Apr 2009
Lara: injured in Nov 2007, released Mar 2008, ST with Cleveland in 2009, still not officially retired (?)
Kuo: injured in Apr 2009, uncertain about future
Miller: injured in Apr 2009, uncertain about future
Chavez: surgery in May 2009, possibly career-ending
Isringhausen: surgery in May 2009 (?), possibly career-ending

Even the worst on- or off-field injuries seldom result in a player's immediate retirement. That this happens (i.e., immediate retirement) as often as it does in OOTP is a complaint I've heard users express for the last 3 years. Except in rare cases, it seldom happens IRL.

[MB.Pelicans]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

For the sake of clarification, I checked the history of these players, IL. Except for Adenhart and Hancock, none of them retired "instantly" or "immediately."

Mantei: injured in 2005, retired in ST 2008
Anderson: injured in 2005, retired in ST 2008
Matheny: injured in May 2006, retired in Feb 2007
Koskie: injured in July 2006, retired in ST 2009
Encarnacion: injured in Aug 2007, filed for FA in Nov 2008, still not officially retired (?)
Loewen: injured in early 2007, converted to OF/1B later in 2007, signed minor-league contract in Apr 2009
Lara: injured in Nov 2007, released Mar 2008, ST with Cleveland in 2009, still not officially retired (?)
Kuo: injured in Apr 2009, uncertain about future
Miller: injured in Apr 2009, uncertain about future
Chavez: surgery in May 2009, possibly career-ending
Isringhausen: surgery in May 2009 (?), possibly career-ending

Even the worst on- or off-field injuries seldom result in a player's immediate retirement. That this happens (i.e., immediate retirement) as often as it does in OOTP is a complaint I've heard users express for the last 3 years. Except in rare cases, it seldom happens IRL.

Thanks for looking that up, I was going to if I had to

[injury log]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

For the sake of clarification, I checked the history of these players, IL. Except for Adenhart and Hancock, none of them retired "instantly" or "immediately."

Mantei: injured in 2005, retired in ST 2008
Anderson: injured in 2005, retired in ST 2008
Matheny: injured in May 2006, retired in Feb 2007
Koskie: injured in July 2006, retired in ST 2009
Encarnacion: injured in Aug 2007, filed for FA in Nov 2008, still not officially retired (?)
Loewen: injured in early 2007, converted to OF/1B later in 2007, signed minor-league contract in Apr 2009
Lara: injured in Nov 2007, released Mar 2008, ST with Cleveland in 2009, still not officially retired (?)
Kuo: injured in Apr 2009, uncertain about future
Miller: injured in Apr 2009, uncertain about future
Chavez: surgery in May 2009, possibly career-ending
Isringhausen: surgery in May 2009 (?), possibly career-ending

Even the worst on- or off-field injuries seldom result in a player's immediate retirement. That this happens (i.e., immediate retirement) as often as it does in OOTP is a complaint I've heard users express for the last 3 years. Except in rare cases, it seldom happens IRL.

Mantei and Anderson both pitched in ST last year. They were on the playing field and reinjured themselves, then announced their retirement the next day. The only way that happens in OOTP is if a guy actually returns from injury and gets injured again. Koskie was also in ST this year, though I'm not sure he made it into a game. Encarnacion's career was clearly over when his injury happened; read any quote from the doctors at the time. There are contractual reasons players will attempt to rehab an injury even when there is no chance that rehab will succeed, and Encarnacion is such a case. The fact that Loewen can hit has very little to do with the fact that he can't pitch anymore due to injury. As best I can tell, Lara was offered a contract out of sympathy this offseason - he hasn't pitched a game for Cleveland at any level, and no one thought he could return at the time of his injury.

[andymac]

While I definitely see endgame's point and agree with him, on the CEI issue I am on the opposite side of OOTP. Guys like Mantei and Anderson may retire because of injuries, that does not mean that the injury was career-ending. They got hurt and made a decision. No doctor told those guys that they would never pitch again. OOTP is missing the player decision. If the same injury that happened to those guys happened to Stephen Strasburg tomorrow, there is no way he retires the next day. While I can see leaving in the Encarnacion "freak" type injuries as career ending, injuries like Mantei's & Anderson's (or even Matheny & Koskie...players have come back from post-concusion syndrome) should not be. There should be some code that weighs the injury with the players' current situation as well as his personality ratings to make the decision whether he wants to calls it quits or tries to come back.

[hmatthias]

In my opinion, the only "instant" CEI should be death, which unfortunatly happens as we saw with Aidenhart this year. Is there any way this can be put in, but with a pretty low probability? It is tragic, as well as forces the team to make quick decisions on replacement.

[injury log]

My point is simply that players retire all the time because of injury - and that's what an 'instant CEI' is in OOTP: a player choosing to retire after suffering an injury. There are a few reasons OOTP's CEI model is unrealistic - things that can't be fixed unless the injury model is made more sophisticated:

-it is exceptionally rare in real life for a player to retire the same day he suffers an injury, simply because it takes time to complete a diagnosis. That's not only true of CEIs - it's pretty much true of most long injuries in real life. Until the game includes delayed diagnoses (pitcher reports 'elbow soreness', then a few days later it's discovered he has a torn UCL), OOTP won't be able to model this aspect of real life. This aspect of CEI modeling in OOTP understandably provokes user complaints;

-in real life, there are three broad types of CEI:

--catastrophic trauma suffered in-game. This type of injury is rare in real life (though Juan Encarnacion's injury attests to their occurrence), and when a player suffers an instant CEI in OOTP, the presentation of the injury to users makes it appear that the player has suffered this kind of injury. These types of instant CEIs used to be common in earlier versions of OOTP; most of these instant CEIs were replaced in OOTP-X with setback/CEIs, though there are likely still too many;

--off field injury. Off field injuries frequently, and tragically, end real life player careers. OOTP has never tried to model this. Now if users want young players to retire in OOTP with the same frequency as in real life, the only way the game can do this at the moment is to give them instant CEIs through in-game injuries. It would certainly be preferable, in my mind, to make the number of in-game CEIs realistic, and to introduce a more sophisticated off-field injury system that the user could elect to turn off if he doesn't want to use it;

--injuries that lead players to retire immediately because they, for whatever reason, are not inclined to go through the extensive rehab required. This is, by far, the most common type of 'instant CEI' in real life (though of course the real life player often doesn't retire immediately in order to keep earning a paycheque). In a more sophisticated injury system, several factors would weigh into the AI decision to make such an injury a CEI:

----most importantly, whether the injury is a repeat injury. In most cases, players who retire immediately from a serious injury have sustained a similar severe injury in the past. When surgery isn't successful the first time, that normally indicates some kind of structural failure that can't be corrected through surgery, making a repeat surgery unlikely to succeed. For OOTP to model this, it would need to keep track of the number of severe injuries a player has sustained, something the game doesn't do at the moment;

----player age. Older players are far more likely to retire because of severe injury than younger ones, simply because it makes less sense for them to attempt a comeback, considering their age and likely ability by the time they return. OOTP could take age into account, but doesn't at the moment;

----player ability. Star players are less likely to retire immediately than scrub players; they have a much stronger economic incentive to attempt to come back;

----player personality. This is impossible to quantify, but one could imagine that a player with a strong work ethic is more likely to attempt a comeback.

In a realistic CEI system, I could imagine seeing about one 'traumatic' CEI each year or two, one off-field CEI per year, and about two or three 'retire because I don't want to complete the rehab' CEIs per year. In this way, CEIs would affect the right calibre of player - too many stars suffer CEIs in OOTP at present. The same personality/history factors that might affect instant CEIs could also be incorporated into determining whether a setback CEI occurs, which would enhance the realism of all CEI AI decisions.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by andymac

While I definitely see endgame's point and agree with him, on the CEI issue I am on the opposite side of OOTP. Guys like Mantei and Anderson may retire because of injuries, that does not mean that the injury was career-ending. They got hurt and made a decision. No doctor told those guys that they would never pitch again. OOTP is missing the player decision. If the same injury that happened to those guys happened to Stephen Strasburg tomorrow, there is no way he retires the next day. While I can see leaving in the Encarnacion "freak" type injuries as career ending, injuries like Mantei's & Anderson's (or even Matheny & Koskie...players have come back from post-concusion syndrome) should not be. There should be some code that weighs the injury with the players' current situation as well as his personality ratings to make the decision whether he wants to calls it quits or tries to come back.

To add to this, just because a guy decides to eventually retire because of an injury history, doesn't mean you can categorize that last injury (the straw that broke the camels' back, if you will) as a CEI. There is almost without exception a history there for every player that contributes to the decision to retire (with the obvious exception of fatalaties). Just because OOTP currently models CEI's poorly is NOT justification for it's use; It can be abandoned forever in its current iteration and the game instantly becomes more realistic. With the removal of CEI's, players will still retire because of a correpsponding ratings drop that renders there skills marginal. They may flounder for several seasons on benches and/or in the minors- but they will eventually retire- either voluntarily- or because no one will sign them. I MUCH prefer this alternative to the current one offered with CEI's as they now stand.

I am appreciative of the time put in by all, but there is simply no way an argument can be made in any form that attempts to justify as realistic instantaneous CEI's....None. Now, if in some future form the game can recognize past injury history in determining an eventual retirement (like Mantei and literally hundreds of others)- I think everyone here can agree- that addition would be welcome. Until then, it's flat out broken.

[Dr. Wu]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

I am appreciative of the time put in by all, but there is simply no way an argument can be made in any form that attempts to justify as realistic instantaneous CEI's....None.

Well, injury log just did.

You can disagree with him, but he's made an argument.

[Cras]

for what its worth, I think this is a great mod.

Instant CEI does not occur. The only kind of such things are off field accidents which result in paralysis or death, or diagnosis of certain diseases, yet even Magic Johnson with AIDS tried to comeback, and Mario Lemeux from cancer came back, and it took a year for ALS to finally force Lou Gehrig off the field.

Unless the injury kills or paralyzies the player, it should not be called career-ending.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

TThey may flounder for several seasons on benches and/or in the minors- but they will eventually retire- either voluntarily- or because no one will sign them. I MUCH prefer this alternative to the current one offered with CEI's as they now stand.

In your game, you'd prefer for a player, whose injury makes him permanently ineffective, to "flounder for several seasons on benches," instead of just retiring? In my universe, that's dead weight, and a situation which I have no desire to model.