Grokking The Game

9tails · 01-08-2009, 04:50 PM

I'm still enjoying the heck out of OOTP9. And I've gotten more experience and now I'm beginning to really wonder about how OOTP9 reaches the results that it does.

I'm a big follower of sabermetrics in real-life baseball and I bring a lot of that sensibility to my OOTP play. But, of course, the underlying 'realities' of RL baseball may be quite different from those in OOTP. I'm very curious to know what's been researched and found out about how Contact, Power, Eye, Stuff, Movement, and the others turn into runs and wins.

For example, I know that in RL, patient hitters often hit for more power, because they'll wait for a good, driveable pitch. But impatient hitters strike out less and, usually, hit for better averages, because they put the ball in play and don't get behind in the count and leave themselves as vulnerable to strikeouts. As a good seamhead, I love me some patient hitters. But how well does this model translate to OOTP9? Or, to ask the same question a different way, what is the simulation structure of an at-bat in OOTP? Does a batter need to make contact (using their Contact rating) before their Gap and Pow ratings come into play? How does a high Eye rating change the shape of a player's outcomes over the course of a season? How do Gap and Pow interact with a pitcher's groundball rate?

And other questions of that nature. Thanks in advance.

Malleus Dei · 01-08-2009, 05:07 PM

They got this neat thing here called a search function. It's amazing.

thehef · 01-08-2009, 05:28 PM

The previous post not withstanding, there are also members who post - most, in fact - that try to be both helpful and respectful to newbies and vets alike... Sorry that I don't have any insight with regards to your inquiries. However, while the search function here or elsewhere may not actually be 'amazing' ;-) it can be very helpful. Try scouring the forums and trying some specific phrases in the search functions and you'll probably, eventually, find what you're looking for...

Good luck!

bosunmate · 01-08-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

The previous post not withstanding, there are also members who post - most, in fact - that try to be both helpful and respectful to newbies and vets alike... Sorry that I don't have any insight with regards to your inquiries. However, while the search function here or elsewhere may not actually be 'amazing' ;-) it can be very helpful. Try scouring the forums and trying some specific phrases in the search functions and you'll probably, eventually, find what you're looking for...

Good luck!

The previous poster has also been very helpful, because he suggested using the search engine doesn't mean he's disrespectful. Believe me you will know when MD is being is being disrespectful.

ashantewarrier · 01-08-2009, 06:55 PM

But you have to admit the response was obnoxious.

Le Grande Orange · 01-08-2009, 07:24 PM

9tails, I would suggest starting by running a search for threads/posts by board member RonCo. He's done a number of studies about the game looking at subjects rather like the one you asked about. Though I'm not sure how many of those made it onto the regular boards and how many were made only in the beta testing forum...

BaseballMan · 01-08-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosunmate

The previous poster has also been very helpful, because he suggested using the search engine doesn't mean he's disrespectful. Believe me you will know when MD is being is being disrespectful.

Its just Mally being Mally.

bosunmate · 01-08-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

But you have to admit the response was obnoxious.

Maybe sarcastic, but not obnoxious. Don't take things so serious Ashante, MD likes to play with newbies.

9tails · 01-08-2009, 10:49 PM

If I got upset every time someone snarked at me, I wouldn't last long on Teh Intertubes.

Thank you, Orange, for the pointer. I'm certainly happy to follow leads. It doesn't appear that he's posted a lot of his research to the main boards, though, which is unfortunate. I'm working through the search function; I hadn't wanted to at first because there's often a treasure trove somewhere if one just asks, rather than slogging through what is, frankly, a pretty lousy search routine. If such a trove doesn't exist, eh, guess it's time to pick up a shovel and start digging.

ashantewarrier · 01-08-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosunmate

Maybe sarcastic, but not obnoxious. Don't take things so serious Ashante, MD likes to play with newbies.

Oh, I get it....an initiation sort of...okay!

bosunmate · 01-08-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9tails

If I got upset every time someone snarked at me, I wouldn't last long on Teh Intertubes.

Thank you, Orange, for the pointer. I'm certainly happy to follow leads. It doesn't appear that he's posted a lot of his research to the main boards, though, which is unfortunate. I'm working through the search function; I hadn't wanted to at first because there's often a treasure trove somewhere if one just asks, rather than slogging through what is, frankly, a pretty lousy search routine. If such a trove doesn't exist, eh, guess it's time to pick up a shovel and start digging.

Welcome aboard 9 tails...

Syd Thrift · 01-09-2009, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

They got this neat thing here called a search function. It's amazing.

They got this neat thing in the human psyche called "tact". It's amazing.

Syd Thrift · 01-09-2009, 04:02 AM

dola,

I think RonCo may have only posted his approximation of how the game engine works in the beta fora. IIRC the game first determines if a ball is one of the Three True Outcomes, then if it's a ball in play, it determines a hit, then if it's a hit it turns into a single, double, or triple. A certain percentage of hits of all varieties are then turned into outs by good fielders and, likewise, a certain percentage of outs are turned into hits by bad ones. It's kind of backwards, but IME patience still works the way it does IRL: really well but better against bad pitchers than good ones.

9tails · 01-09-2009, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

dola,

I think RonCo may have only posted his approximation of how the game engine works in the beta fora. IIRC the game first determines if a ball is one of the Three True Outcomes, then if it's a ball in play, it determines a hit, then if it's a hit it turns into a single, double, or triple. A certain percentage of hits of all varieties are then turned into outs by good fielders and, likewise, a certain percentage of outs are turned into hits by bad ones. It's kind of backwards, but IME patience still works the way it does IRL: really well but better against bad pitchers than good ones.

I'm finding some interesting things via the search function, but one question I have for this statement is... are at-bats simulated at the per-pitch or per-outcome level? Your statement suggests that at-bats are simulated at a per-outcome level and per-pitch PBP is cosmetic. Is that the case?

Tony M · 01-09-2009, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9tails

I'm finding some interesting things via the search function, but one question I have for this statement is... are at-bats simulated at the per-pitch or per-outcome level? Your statement suggests that at-bats are simulated at a per-outcome level and per-pitch PBP is cosmetic. Is that the case?

Yes, each pitch is played out knowing what the actual at-bat outcome is. This allows you to perform such strategies as always taking pitches until you have two strikes and then trying to hit because the outcome will still be the same as if you started at a 0-0 count. This then wears out the opponent pitchers and starts to move the game in your direction.

Markus Heinsohn · 01-09-2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony M

Yes, each pitch is played out knowing what the actual at-bat outcome is. This allows you to perform such strategies as always taking pitches until you have two strikes and then trying to hit because the outcome will still be the same as if you started at a 0-0 count. This then wears out the opponent pitchers and starts to move the game in your direction.

Not quite... let's say you have an 0-1 count, and tell the hitter to take the pitch. If the result was intended on that pitch (i.e. single), but the pitch is taken, then the outcome is recalculated, using the current count, in this case it may have been a strike, and at 0-2 the chances for getting a hit are much slimmer.

Tony M · 01-09-2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Not quite... let's say you have an 0-1 count, and tell the hitter to take the pitch. If the result was intended on that pitch (i.e. single), but the pitch is taken, then the outcome is recalculated, using the current count, in this case it may have been a strike, and at 0-2 the chances for getting a hit are much slimmer.

Oh, OK. I think when I first mentioned the take pitch strategy everybody said it didn't matter as the outcome was decided at start of at-bat. But it's nice to hear from those in charge that the outcome does vary...

Malleus Dei · 01-09-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

They got this neat thing in the human psyche called "tact". It's overrated.

Fixed that for you.

Malleus Dei · 01-09-2009, 05:32 PM

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

dsvitak · 01-09-2009, 05:32 PM

I should find one of the first posts that I ever had, on this board.

I got just .... HAMMERED by MD. Yeah. Initiation. Sure.

01-08-2009, 04:50 PM	#1
9tails Bat Boy Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 16	Grokking The Game I'm still enjoying the heck out of OOTP9. And I've gotten more experience and now I'm beginning to really wonder about how OOTP9 reaches the results that it does. I'm a big follower of sabermetrics in real-life baseball and I bring a lot of that sensibility to my OOTP play. But, of course, the underlying 'realities' of RL baseball may be quite different from those in OOTP. I'm very curious to know what's been researched and found out about how Contact, Power, Eye, Stuff, Movement, and the others turn into runs and wins. For example, I know that in RL, patient hitters often hit for more power, because they'll wait for a good, driveable pitch. But impatient hitters strike out less and, usually, hit for better averages, because they put the ball in play and don't get behind in the count and leave themselves as vulnerable to strikeouts. As a good seamhead, I love me some patient hitters. But how well does this model translate to OOTP9? Or, to ask the same question a different way, what is the simulation structure of an at-bat in OOTP? Does a batter need to make contact (using their Contact rating) before their Gap and Pow ratings come into play? How does a high Eye rating change the shape of a player's outcomes over the course of a season? How do Gap and Pow interact with a pitcher's groundball rate? And other questions of that nature. Thanks in advance.

01-08-2009, 06:55 PM	#5
ashantewarrier Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somerset, NJ via Brooklyn, NY Posts: 2,305	But you have to admit the response was obnoxious. __________________ "I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being." -Jackie Robinson, #42 Brooklyn Dodgers *"Hitting is better than sex."* - Reggie Jackson

01-08-2009, 05:28 PM	#3
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,345	The previous post not withstanding, there are also members who post - most, in fact - that try to be both helpful and respectful to newbies and vets alike... Sorry that I don't have any insight with regards to your inquiries. However, while the search function here or elsewhere may not actually be 'amazing' ;-) it can be very helpful. Try scouring the forums and trying some specific phrases in the search functions and you'll probably, eventually, find what you're looking for... Good luck!

01-08-2009, 07:24 PM	#6
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	9tails, I would suggest starting by running a search for threads/posts by board member RonCo. He's done a number of studies about the game looking at subjects rather like the one you asked about. Though I'm not sure how many of those made it onto the regular boards and how many were made only in the beta testing forum...

01-08-2009, 10:49 PM	#9
9tails Bat Boy Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 16	If I got upset every time someone snarked at me, I wouldn't last long on Teh Intertubes. Thank you, Orange, for the pointer. I'm certainly happy to follow leads. It doesn't appear that he's posted a lot of his research to the main boards, though, which is unfortunate. I'm working through the search function; I hadn't wanted to at first because there's often a treasure trove somewhere if one just asks, rather than slogging through what is, frankly, a pretty lousy search routine. If such a trove doesn't exist, eh, guess it's time to pick up a shovel and start digging.

01-09-2009, 05:32 PM	#20
dsvitak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,344	I should find one of the first posts that I ever had, on this board. I got just .... HAMMERED by MD. Yeah. Initiation. Sure.