Does Ichiro's 3,000 Count? - Page 2

KurtBevacqua · 07-30-2008, 08:55 AM

It certainly shouldn't count the same way Paul Molitor or Robin Yount getting 3000 hits should count. The 3000 hit club is reserved for guys doing it in the Major Leagues. That said I do think Hall of Fame voters owe it some consideration when Ichiro's time comes. I think Ichiro will be inducted into the Hall and the voters will take into account his full body of work when voting for him.

f.montoya · 07-30-2008, 09:06 AM

I think all of Ichiro's stats should count. Considering that he played when the *** was on a 135 game schedule, compared to MLB's 162, his stats are handicapped enough to embrace in my opinion. When you consider the quality of pitching in a 12 team league, with plenty of it's own history, that is at least very comparable to an arguably diluted 30 team league. Ichiro may not have gotten those hits off of the same pitchers that Tony Gwynn got his, but then again Gwynn didn't get his hits off the same pitchers Ted Williams did either.

myasu · 07-30-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

Well, it's easier for Ichiro to say that he can hit 40 home runs per season than for him to actually do it.

Well, if those words came out of somebody else's mouth, I would react the same way as you do.
However, I know that he is not the kind of person who says thing like this without much confidence.

Besides, I have heard so many of his teammates/managers say that it would be realistic for him to hit as many HRs if he really wanted to.

Left-handed Badger · 07-31-2008, 02:41 AM

He'll likely make the HOF I'd say.

Erik W. · 07-31-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

Well, it's easier for Ichiro to say that he can hit 40 home runs per season than for him to actually do it.

Ever seen him take BP?

The guy could win a HR Derby.

Prodigal Son · 07-31-2008, 08:24 AM

So could Russell Branyan. Sounds like Ichiro's numbers would be similar to his (.220 hitter like Ichiro said) if he tried to be a HR hitter, but with an even lower OBP and while taking up a corner OF spot.

That's not going to cut it.

Boom Boom · 07-31-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

Three-thousand professional hits is impressive no matter where it takes place, in my opinion.

agree

Lucas718 · 07-31-2008, 08:01 PM

For all you guys who say his hits should count, do you consider Sadaharu Oh to be the all-time home run leader?

Long_Long_Name · 07-31-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas718

For all you guys who say his hits should count, do you consider Sadaharu Oh to be the all-time home run leader?

I hit more home runs than Oh in my backyard.

Oh has the most home runs in pro baseball, and Bonds in MLB. I don't see it as a competition between both, really, I see them as two different things. Ichiro has 3000 pro hits, but not 3000 MLB hits, I don't see the point of "merging" them and making it seem like he has 3000 career MLB hits or 1700 MLB hits - neither are true.

BaseballMan · 07-31-2008, 09:09 PM

i think only his stats in the major leagues should count for the major leagues. You dont count the stats that major league players put up in japan. If this was a world baseball league then i could see it but since they are 2 different leagues, let the stats for the majors count for only the majors leagues and let japaneses stats count for the japanese league. Im not sure if sstats should only count when the major leaguies actually became the major leagues with the AL & NL. Maybe the National League of 1876-1900 should just be separate since there was a different set of rules. But i dont think 3,000 hits should make or break Ichiro's chance at the hall.
Oh and what about stats for players in minor leagues back in early part of the 20th century? Since they were more or less the same as the japanese league maybe even better. Lefty Grove certainly didnt stay in the minors for 5 years because he wasnt ready. Babe Ruth may have stayed with Baltimore since they werent thinking of molding players for the major leagues back then. Not the same as minor leagues today so should those stats count? I see the japanese league in the same light as those leagues.

Syd Thrift · 07-31-2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas718

For all you guys who say his hits should count, do you consider Sadaharu Oh to be the all-time home run leader?

Yes, absolutely. Not the all-time major league HR leader, but definitely the leader in all of organized baseball. And, BTW, a guy who should absolutely be in the baseball Hall of Fame. They've already acknowledged that there are other leagues out there besides the MLB, which is why Josh Gibson and Cool Papa Bell are in there; why not recognize the stars of leagues of other countries as well? It doesn't hurt Babe Ruth's stature one whit to put Oh and Victor Starffin and Hector Espino into the HOF. If anything, putting internationally recognized greats like that does the opposite of what adding Hack Wilson and Sunny Jim Bottomley and Tinker to Evers to Chance did to it.

As for the slippery-slope argument re: minor leaguers, there really aren't that many guys out there since the 1950s who had big long successful minor league careers who weren't also solid major league players. Steve Balboni hit like 350 homers between the majors and the minors. Dick Stuart and Jim Gentile also got a number. Before the 50s you have guys like Buzz Arlett (the career US minor league HR champ with 432), about whom a case can be made, albeit an iffy one; even in the early 30s certain minor leagues like the PCL and the American Association had teams that operated a couple steps above what we'd deem AAA today (at least in terms of the difference between talent in the majors). I mean, if you're going to count Old Hoss Radbourn and Pud Galvin as major league players, how can you leave out Smead Jolley?

But as noted, by and large there just aren't really any US minor leaguers with 3,000 hits or 500 homeruns or 300 victories. There are definitely major leaguers who might have a case for amplifying a close-to-HOF style career with good totals either before or after they played in the bigs, but there's not really anybody out there to compare to Sadaharu Oh or Josh Gibson or Hector Espino.

f.montoya · 07-31-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

...If this was a world baseball league then i could see it...

Yet, we call that U.S./Canada Series a "World" Series and allow the winner of that to call themselves "World" champions.

BaseballMan · 08-01-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f.montoya

Yet, we call that U.S./Canada Series a "World" Series and allow the winner of that to call themselves "World" champions.

They did that before Canada was in the league. You could say the Japanese world champion as well. Its just the world champion unique to that league.
That has more to do with arrogance of Americans considering the United States the center of the universe than an actual world champion of all nations.
Besides they already partly corrected that with the Expos.

Le Grande Orange · 08-01-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yes, absolutely. Not the all-time major league HR leader, but definitely the leader in all of organized baseball.

Not really "organized baseball" since that term refers to the professional baseball structure as represented by Major League Baseball and the leagues belonging to the National Assocation. (This is why early independent leagues were referred to as outlaw leagues; they were outside the established baseball order and rules.)

It would be more accurate to say the all-time professional baseball home run leader.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

That has more to do with arrogance of Americans considering the United States the center of the universe than an actual world champion of all nations.

Actually, the term "World's Series" (later to become World Series) was coined during the 19th century in regards to the championship series between the winners of the National League and American Assocation, a time when professional baseball, especially at a high level of skill, was almost exclusively played in the U.S.

The name stuck.

f.montoya · 08-01-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

They did that before Canada was in the league. You could say the Japanese world champion as well. Its just the world champion unique to that league.
That has more to do with arrogance of Americans considering the United States the center of the universe than an actual world champion of all nations.
Besides they already partly corrected that with the Expos.

BaseballMan, I wasn't poking at you at all. (But in actuality, the Nippon Series winner isn't called a "World" champion in any way, shape or form)

I'm aware of the origination of the "World" part(thanks LG

). I just think that now that baseball is globalized to the point where other countries such a Mexico, Puerto Rico, Japan, Taiwain, Korea, etc., etc. have been producing very high caliber players, MLB should rethink that "World" part. Hey, just the other day, I was watching a Celtics/Lakers NBA finals game from the '80's and after it was finished the announcers also called the winner "World" Champion. Just thought it was funny that we Americans will do that and then close our eyes to Hall of Fame performances outside our borders.

Prodigal Son · 08-01-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yes, absolutely. Not the all-time major league HR leader, but definitely the leader in all of organized baseball. And, BTW, a guy who should absolutely be in the baseball Hall of Fame. They've already acknowledged that there are other leagues out there besides the MLB, which is why Josh Gibson and Cool Papa Bell are in there; why not recognize the stars of leagues of other countries as well? It doesn't hurt Babe Ruth's stature one whit to put Oh and Victor Starffin and Hector Espino into the HOF. If anything, putting internationally recognized greats like that does the opposite of what adding Hack Wilson and Sunny Jim Bottomley and Tinker to Evers to Chance did to it.

As for the slippery-slope argument re: minor leaguers, there really aren't that many guys out there since the 1950s who had big long successful minor league careers who weren't also solid major league players. Steve Balboni hit like 350 homers between the majors and the minors. Dick Stuart and Jim Gentile also got a number. Before the 50s you have guys like Buzz Arlett (the career US minor league HR champ with 432), about whom a case can be made, albeit an iffy one; even in the early 30s certain minor leagues like the PCL and the American Association had teams that operated a couple steps above what we'd deem AAA today (at least in terms of the difference between talent in the majors). I mean, if you're going to count Old Hoss Radbourn and Pud Galvin as major league players, how can you leave out Smead Jolley?

But as noted, by and large there just aren't really any US minor leaguers with 3,000 hits or 500 homeruns or 300 victories. There are definitely major leaguers who might have a case for amplifying a close-to-HOF style career with good totals either before or after they played in the bigs, but there's not really anybody out there to compare to Sadaharu Oh or Josh Gibson or Hector Espino.

It's not a matter of how many HR's and hits a guy got in the minors. Even 30 HR or 200 H would be enough to change the HoF fortunes for some guys. The magnitude is really irrelevant. If you're fair, you're fair. Why should Ryan Howard not have his minors numbers converted?

BaseballMan · 08-01-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f.montoya

BaseballMan, I wasn't poking at you at all. (But in actuality, the Nippon Series winner isn't called a "World" champion in any way, shape or form)

I'm aware of the origination of the "World" part(thanks LG

). I just think that now that baseball is globalized to the point where other countries such a Mexico, Puerto Rico, Japan, Taiwain, Korea, etc., etc. have been producing very high caliber players, MLB should rethink that "World" part. Hey, just the other day, I was watching a Celtics/Lakers NBA finals game from the '80's and after it was finished the announcers also called the winner "World" Champion. Just thought it was funny that we Americans will do that and then close our eyes to Hall of Fame performances outside our borders.

Yeah i was just saying the japanese could call themselves world champion if they wanted too. Actually it may not be incorrect to say world champion because the team that wins is the major league world champion. You cant call Mexico the major league world champion because they are not in the major leagues.
Just like the Yankees cant be the japanese league world champions. I think we just assume people know we mean the major leagues we we say world champions instead of actually saying the major league world champion.

Syd Thrift · 08-01-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

It's not a matter of how many HR's and hits a guy got in the minors. Even 30 HR or 200 H would be enough to change the HoF fortunes for some guys. The magnitude is really irrelevant. If you're fair, you're fair. Why should Ryan Howard not have his minors numbers converted?

Because Ryan Howard was stuck in the minors for a period of time due to lack of skill, not due to being Japanese or black or Cuban. Anyway, I don't really have a problem with taking full-on minor league numbers into account. They sure make a good case for Lefty Grove being perhaps the best pitcher in the history of baseball. And as stated, if you're going to count what Hoss Radbourn was in as "major league", I'm not sure how you can exclude the Japanese League.

Prodigal Son · 08-02-2008, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Because Ryan Howard was stuck in the minors for a period of time due to lack of skill, not due to being Japanese or black or Cuban. Anyway, I don't really have a problem with taking full-on minor league numbers into account. They sure make a good case for Lefty Grove being perhaps the best pitcher in the history of baseball. And as stated, if you're going to count what Hoss Radbourn was in as "major league", I'm not sure how you can exclude the Japanese League.

In his final year in the minors, the guy hit .371/.467/.690 in AAA (after posting a 1.000 in AA and AAA combined the previous year) and then finally came up and easily won ROY the next year with a HoF-caliber 133 OPS+.

He wasn't in the minors because of a lack of skill. He was probably a top 10 MLB 1B the last year and a half he was in the minors. He was in the minors because he had no recourse and the Phillies had an expensive Thome and didn't want to start Howard's clock.

Syd Thrift · 08-02-2008, 02:41 AM

Having a better player in front of you is still lack of skill. When an NBA team cuts a guy, they don't get to renege on his salary because they have a better player starting in front of him (the parallel is because the NBA makes teams pay their players' salaries if they are cut due to lack of ability).

07-30-2008, 08:55 AM	#21
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	It certainly shouldn't count the same way Paul Molitor or Robin Yount getting 3000 hits should count. The 3000 hit club is reserved for guys doing it in the Major Leagues. That said I do think Hall of Fame voters owe it some consideration when Ichiro's time comes. I think Ichiro will be inducted into the Hall and the voters will take into account his full body of work when voting for him. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

07-30-2008, 09:06 AM	#22
f.montoya Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,077	I think all of Ichiro's stats should count. Considering that he played when the *** was on a 135 game schedule, compared to MLB's 162, his stats are handicapped enough to embrace in my opinion. When you consider the quality of pitching in a 12 team league, with plenty of it's own history, that is at least very comparable to an arguably diluted 30 team league. Ichiro may not have gotten those hits off of the same pitchers that Tony Gwynn got his, but then again Gwynn didn't get his hits off the same pitchers Ted Williams did either. __________________ Fidel Montoya Asahi2 Baseball League ex-Commissioner(Historical League Since 2004) Ex-Web Host Current Mod Maker??

07-31-2008, 02:41 AM	#24
Left-handed Badger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: at the altar of the baseball god praying for middle infield that can catch the ball Posts: 2,036	He'll likely make the HOF I'd say. __________________ -Left-handed groundball specialist -Strikeouts are for wimps

07-31-2008, 08:24 AM	#26
Prodigal Son All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Location: Iahiodo a.k.a. the flyover Posts: 1,635	So could Russell Branyan. Sounds like Ichiro's numbers would be similar to his (.220 hitter like Ichiro said) if he tried to be a HR hitter, but with an even lower OBP and while taking up a corner OF spot. That's not going to cut it. Last edited by Prodigal Son; 07-31-2008 at 08:26 AM.

07-31-2008, 08:01 PM	#28
Lucas718 Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 402	For all you guys who say his hits should count, do you consider Sadaharu Oh to be the all-time home run leader?

07-31-2008, 09:09 PM	#30
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	i think only his stats in the major leagues should count for the major leagues. You dont count the stats that major league players put up in japan. If this was a world baseball league then i could see it but since they are 2 different leagues, let the stats for the majors count for only the majors leagues and let japaneses stats count for the japanese league. Im not sure if sstats should only count when the major leaguies actually became the major leagues with the AL & NL. Maybe the National League of 1876-1900 should just be separate since there was a different set of rules. But i dont think 3,000 hits should make or break Ichiro's chance at the hall. Oh and what about stats for players in minor leagues back in early part of the 20th century? Since they were more or less the same as the japanese league maybe even better. Lefty Grove certainly didnt stay in the minors for 5 years because he wasnt ready. Babe Ruth may have stayed with Baltimore since they werent thinking of molding players for the major leagues back then. Not the same as minor leagues today so should those stats count? I see the japanese league in the same light as those leagues.