PbP comparisons between OOTP and DMB

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by thbroman

At the same time, I'm going to say that in my opinion making a major improvement to the PbP system should not be a major priority of the next release. I would much rather see improvements to the minor league system and financials and, most of all, FINALLY a resolution of the accursed pitcher endurance issue!

No problems there. I wouldn't suggest that improving the pbp is the only thing that should be worked on or that it should take priority over all else. But a significant upgrade in that area would be a real Big Deal.

[BoHill]

Originally Posted by spitfire

And by the way, speaking of sound ..... if it's going to be in the game anyway ........ how about recreating the ballpark atmosphere of different eras? Could be an interesting optional thing that could even change over the years like the financials. A modern game might have wall to wall rock music etc, while a game from an earlier period might have the odd trumpet call and organ music. Or even the Dodger Sym-Phony or equivalent back in the 40's and 50's! Anyone know what a game was like audio-wise in the 1920's or earlier? I know there were brass bands in the stands at some earlier games, and the fans would sing things like that "Tessie" song. When did organs come into ballparks anyway?

As a helpful and kindly suggestion, and with all due respect, it's easy enough for you to change your own atmospherics to suit yourself. Just download some sound files that you like, convert them to .wav files, remix or adjust them as you like, and then drop them into the sounds folder, replacing any or all of the following files: intro1.wav, intro2.wav, intro3.wav (hard rock files), and/or rally1.wav, rally2.wav, rally3.wav (organ rally files).

After you locate some good music atmosperic sound files that you like on the web, the whole process only takes a few minutes. Personally, I have different sets of sound files to add variety and I just roll them in or out of the game prior to each session using the free JSGME* mod enabler program. Hope this helps.

*JSGME = JScones Generic Mod Enabler JoneSoft Products

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Of course. But the volunteer route is a longer and more difficult process since it relies on the willingness and ability of people to devote time their free time to the project.

(EC's comments)
After three years of long endless hours working on the PBP, don't you think tysok, pstrickert and others have proved their knowledge of the game and their dedication and zeal to perfect the PBP. It would not surprise me if they worked 8-10 hours a day on the PBP. They may be volunteers, but work like they are being paid thousands. It would not be risky to use them to do the grunt work. I hope Markus will use them soon. It would be a shame for them to get frustrated and leave the Beta Team. It would be a huge loss. Nobody know PBP like tysok. And pstrickert is great at evaluations and proofing.

(LGO's comments)
No, but he's the one who's got to code the support for all the various tokens and make sure they're working properly with each other. And there's demands from lots of other areas for Markus' coding time.

(EC's comments)
I understand that. But I have been waiting since OOTP3 for him to improve the News and PBP. It has improved because of the hard work of a few people, not because Markus had concentrated any time on it. I have spend hundreds of hours working on the Beta Team year-round for three years. And yes, there are many like me working their butts off for the game. They never stop working on it. It is time for Markus to concentrate on PBP (and the News to a much lesser extent).

(LGO's comments)
Frankly, I can think of two (related) areas which, in my view, would more fundamentally change the way the game works for the better ahead of improving the PbP.

(EC's comments)
What are those two related areas? Please expound briefly on them.

(LGO's comments)
But it's all a matter of priorities, and Markus is the one who has final say on that. Best we can do is campaign for our respective causes...

(EC's comments)
I hope Markus will make PBP what it should be...and soon.

See comments in Bold above.

[The Professor]

OOTP's PbP has come miles since the agonizing rewrite of the much maligned 2006-7 version. I can still remember what was two straight months of non-stop, constant, work by about three or four people - Eugene was there, he surely remembers it - to completely rewrite the game's PbP. With bare bones guidance, little communication with the beta team, and no real idea of how anything would look in the game until the very end -- when it was blindingly apparent that a lot looked...uh...wrong. It was truly a case of the blind leading the blind and all that...

...what tysok and co. have done since is nothing short of remarkable, they deserve so much credit and applause, but I suspect the primary roadblocks to DMB-style PbP remain. For one thing, even if it has been given greater attention in the last few versions, I suspect PbP/News remains something of the ugly stepchild in those far-away realms where people develop this game we call OOTP.

No doubt, there is still a bevy of hard-coded material that makes it difficult to get PbP to be just perfect. I see folks who want something closer to what they hear on the radio. Three years ago, the critically panned (and rightfully so, to some degree) Frankenstein-monster of a PbP release was the result of hard-code roadblocks and ambition that couldn't begin to be realized by the then OOTP PbP foundation. Ambition to do just that - to give the PbP the feel of having one's ear by the transister at night - was undone by the limitations to the code and what the hard-working writers could do to overcome it, in addition to the fact that nobody really knew what they were doing.

What the gang has made from the wreckage of those beginnings is to be lauded. I look forward to the day when OOTP can go toe-to-toe with DMB in terms of PbP immersion, but unless things have radically changed, I really can't see that happening until Markus devotes a significant part of his time to clearing up (or clearing out) the code blocks in PbP and allowing the gifted writers on hand now to realize the possibilities of total control and flexibility in creating the PbP that was in the dreams of a few tinkerers years ago...

Bottom line: Nice job, guys. It gets better every year and you are to be commended for all of your hard work.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Cork55

If Markus would actually devote some real time to the PbP he could probably add these types of things to the OOTP very easily. I have faith that he will eventually come around with regard to the PbP.

-Cork55

After 9 versions you would think that overall improvement in this area would be obvious but it is far from that.

To me, this is a lot more important then ball flight and sounds. This game should be all about text!

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by The Professor

OOTP's PbP has come miles since the agonizing rewrite of the much maligned 2006-7 version. I can still remember what was two straight months of non-stop, constant, work by about three or four people - Eugene was there, he surely remembers it - to completely rewrite the game's PbP. With bare bones guidance, little communication with the beta team, and no real idea of how anything would look in the game until the very end -- when it was blindingly apparent that a lot looked...uh...wrong. It was truly a case of the blind leading the blind and all that...

...what tysok and co. have done since is nothing short of remarkable, they deserve so much credit and applause, but I suspect the primary roadblocks to DMB-style PbP remain. For one thing, even if it has been given greater attention in the last few versions, I suspect PbP/News remains something of the ugly stepchild in those far-away realms where people develop this game we call OOTP.

No doubt, there is still a bevy of hard-coded material that makes it difficult to get PbP to be just perfect. I see folks who want something closer to what they hear on the radio. Three years ago, the critically panned (and rightfully so, to some degree) Frankenstein-monster of a PbP release was the result of hard-code roadblocks and ambition that couldn't begin to be realized by the then OOTP PbP foundation. Ambition to do just that - to give the PbP the feel of having one's ear by the transister at night - was undone by the limitations to the code and what the hard-working writers could do to overcome it, in addition to the fact that nobody really knew what they were doing.

What the gang has made from the wreckage of those beginnings is to be lauded. I look forward to the day when OOTP can go toe-to-toe with DMB in terms of PbP immersion, but unless things have radically changed, I really can't see that happening until Markus devotes a significant part of his time to clearing up (or clearing out) the code blocks in PbP and allowing the gifted writers on hand now to realize the possibilities of total control and flexibility in creating the PbP that was in the dreams of a few tinkerers years ago...

Bottom line: Nice job, guys. It gets better every year and you are to be commended for all of your hard work.

Professor, you have been severely missed on the Beta PBP/News Team.

You made V2006 as good as it could be, given the circumstances you had to work in. You were right about we were "the blind leading the blind". We had to figure everything out ourselves with very little guidance and instruction from Markus. Sadly, it is still that way today.

I hope one day you will have the time to return.
Nobody know PBP terminology like you. Your knowledge of baseball PBP is truly amazing.

With your baseball language expertise, Markus could blow DMB PBP off the planet and knock them "OUT OF THE PARK".

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by BoHill

As a helpful and kindly suggestion, and with all due respect, it's easy enough for you to change your own atmospherics to suit yourself. Just download some sound files that you like, convert them to .wav files, remix or adjust them as you like, and then drop them into the sounds folder, replacing any or all of the following files: intro1.wav, intro2.wav, intro3.wav (hard rock files), and/or rally1.wav, rally2.wav, rally3.wav (organ rally files).

After you locate some good music atmosperic sound files that you like on the web, the whole process only takes a few minutes. Personally, I have different sets of sound files to add variety and I just roll them in or out of the game prior to each session using the free JSGME* mod enabler program. Hope this helps.

*JSGME = JScones Generic Mod Enabler JoneSoft Products

Would you be willing to tell us where you found these files? Which websites? Thanks.

[Simmo13]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's always a good night to looby for better PbP and base running!

Perhaps The Wolf could gives us an example of how DMB might describe loobying

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by Simmo13

Perhaps The Wolf could gives us an example of how DMB might describe loobying

Hmm

<object width="425" height="344">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7f0pFjreU8w&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

After 9 versions you would think that overall improvement in this area would be obvious but it is far from that.

To me, this is a lot more important then ball flight and sounds. This game should be all about text!

Agree.

It is one of the more important parts.

After this many years and this many versions, one would think the PBP would be pretty well-perfected by now.

[pstrickert]

I wonder if Markus will even read this thread.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Spitfire---Aurelio Rodriguez? Of All the Tigers from that period, you bring up Aurelio Rodriguez? Thank you. He was my first boyhood hero. Did you ever get to see him live? Incredible.. he made great plays effortlessly, and had a cannon for a Arm. You made my day. Oh and Ernie wasn't hard on the ears either.

Ah, fond memories of Senior Smoke!

[jdew]

Originally Posted by Russ

Does anyone have any recordings of games on radio they could perhaps let Markus borrow? TV and radio really are two different animals.

The Internet Archive has some recordings.

Internet Archive Search: mediatype:audio AND subject:"Sports"


You might want to pay particular attention to the 1949 World Series.... Red Barber and Mel Allen.

The 1951 NL playoff game (Dodgers vs Giants... you know the one; its THE playoff game) is a good one too.

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by jdew

The Internet Archive has some recordings.

Internet Archive Search: mediatype:audio AND subject:"Sports"


You might want to pay particular attention to the 1949 World Series.... Red Barber and Mel Allen.

The 1951 NL playoff game (Dodgers vs Giants... you know the one; its THE playoff game) is a good one too.

I've got recordings - or bits of - the 1936, 47, 49, 51, 56, 57, 59, 60, 61, 64, 67, 68, 71, 75, 77, 82, 85, 87 World Series, plus a few gigs of random innings, games and clips from the last 50+ years.

That isn't what is going to make OOTP's PbP better.

What will make it better is:

- Getting hard-coded items either removed or fixed so that they better fit the overall scheme of the PbP

- Getting the PbP to flow properly and run through sequences of events in a manner which makes sense and reads more like traditional play-by-play, which is more of a coding problem than a writing problem

- If OOTP is ever to have PbP that recognizes ballpark quirks or other unusual, colorful, items, Markus is going to have to devote time to coding those possibilities in.

An '04 model just is not going to run on a '54 engine.

[SittingDuck]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I wonder if Markus will even read this thread.

I hate to really say it, but here it is - if it isn't new and it is functioning adequately, and it's an area he doesn't feel strongly about, it gets little support. That's my opinion, however.

I don't feel it is an important area to him. Now that's not to say he doesn't address other areas that people are concerned about - he does, definitely, and often decisively. Yes, he does respond, albeit erratically and we never quite know where he is going or heading with stuff. That's difficult as betas and game owners in general to deal with.

My guess is that the whole area requires a shatload of monotonous work and he isn't up to it, because frankly, it works....ok. Not sterling, but OK.

Blah.... And that really sucks.

[pstrickert]

It's interesting, Duck, that two of the nine members of the so-called Design Team were PbP specialists (i.e., tysok and me). One would think that we might have Markus' ear (so to speak). Guess not. It made no difference to the PbP that we were part of that team.

[Bishop]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

The bottom line is it corresponds well with the experience of listening to a ball game on the radio, which many of DMB's adherents used to do before there were so many games on TV. Perhaps THAT's why it's hard to duplicate. If you didn't grow up in the radio generation, you can't possibly have the remembrance that the artistry of radio pBp is what hooked many of us on baseball in the first place. You had to visualize the game through words, and the artistry of the announcer had to capture the drama of the game without any visuals at all.

Just my .02.

I've not played DMB, so I can't comment, but I will say this is true. While I like a good TV presentation, I much more enjoy sitting outside with a radio, listening to Milo Hamilton call the action. There's just a flow required to tell the story over the radio that just isn't needed for a TV PbP man to learn.

[David Watts]

Bishop, Milo is another legend of his craft. I have XM and the number of quality pbp guys are dwindling. The radio pbp guy for the Indians should be executed on national television for how bad he is. He screams at the top of his lungs for no reason what so ever. He is a total joke. That idiot that does the whole a-bomb crap for the Yankees is a tool also. He makes a fool out of the whole franchise everytime he opens his mouth. I guess if OOTP stays around long enough, quality pbp won't matter, as no one will have ever heard it.

[thbroman]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Bishop, Milo is another legend of his craft. I have XM and the number of quality pbp guys are dwindling. The radio pbp guy for the Indians should be executed on national television for how bad he is. He screams at the top of his lungs for no reason what so ever. He is a total joke. That idiot that does the whole a-bomb crap for the Yankees is a tool also. He makes a fool out of the whole franchise everytime he opens his mouth. I guess if OOTP stays around long enough, quality pbp won't matter, as no one will have ever heard it.

I live in Brewers country and quite enjoy Bob Uecker (and sidekick Jim Powell). Uecker is not the most brilliant radio PbP guy in history*, and some of his jokes get a little repetitive if you listen to him a lot, as I do. But he does know to do it well and he never, NEVER goes over the top in his commentary, which is the thing that I appreciate most. He's a fan of the Brewers and a fan of the game and he's just as able to appreciate a superb performance by someone on the other team as from one of his own guys.

*- I especially remember Jack Buck fondly.

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by thbroman

I live in Brewers country and quite enjoy Bob Uecker (and sidekick Jim Powell). Uecker is not the most brilliant radio PbP guy in history*, and some of his jokes get a little repetitive if you listen to him a lot, as I do. But he does know to do it well and he never, NEVER goes over the top in his commentary, which is the thing that I appreciate most. He's a fan of the Brewers and a fan of the game and he's just as able to appreciate a superb performance by someone on the other team as from one of his own guys.

*- I especially remember Jack Buck fondly.

+100

-Cork55