PbP comparisons between OOTP and DMB

[Eugene Church]

pstrickert posted this in a PBP thread recently.
I really like this type of PBP.

Here's a small sampling of DMB PbP. This kind of content in OOTP could invigorate the in-game experience. What do you think?

"and [team] has 5 runs in this inning"

"and [team] has three homers this game"

"having hit safely in his last [X] games"

"sporting a hitting streak of [X] games!"

"hitless so far today"

"[batting avg] against lefthanded pitching"

"a dangerous [batting avg] versus righties"

"a meager [batting avg] against righties"

"a single and a sacrifice today"

"a couple of hits already"

"drew a base on balls last time"

"struck out his first time up"

"had a sac fly last time"

"walked and scored previously"

"an RBI single last time up"

"drove in two with a hit last time"

"he cleared the bases with a double last time"

"is just one homer away from the [X] mark"

"[batter] is closing in on 200 hits for the season"

"[batter] is closing in on 100 RBI for the season"

"[batter] hit into a fly ball double play in his last at bat"

"just missed a homer to right last time"

"routine fly out to center last time"

"stranded three by popping up last time"

"here's [batter] with a chance to tie the game"

"still looking for his first hit this [series]"

"tied the game with his solo homer last time"

"hitting an even .300"

"grounded out twice today"

"three for three; all strikeouts"

"[batter] hitless in [X] at bats this series"

"[baserunner] not a basestealing threat"

"the tying run down at first"

"pinch-hitting is the righthanded [batter]"

"facing the southpaw [pitcher]"

"corners up for the bunt"

"here's [batter], now hitting in the pitcher's spot"

"has his team's only hit in the ballgame"

"really struggling at [batting avg] against lefties"

"the infield, of course, is in"

"the big grand slam to left center last time"

"he's down at second with the tying run"

"four hits today, including a homerun"

"with the pitcher due up next"

"and the tying run moves to third"

"average speed at best at second"

"and the lead is down to one"

"a big strikeout for [pitcher]"

"over the wall and onto Lansdowne"

"where it caroms into the back of the bullpen!"

"off of the light pole!"

"over the wall and onto 20th Street!"

"into the Sox bullpen"

"waiting for the LaGuardia traffic to ease"

"passing over the Old Navy sign"

"just above the Splash Landing sign!"

"over the bleachers and into McCovey Cove!"

"bouncing on the homerun porch and up against the gate!"

"over the scoreboard out onto Bedford!"

"over the GEM sign it goes..."

"well hit but into death valley"

"beneath the 421-foot sign"

"he's especially tough against lefthanders"

"owns one of [team]'s two hits"

"perfect so far, a walk and two hits"

"[team] hoping to manufacture the tying run"

"he's now only 1 for [X] in this series"

"Aunt Minnie...
you'd better open the window on the houseboat
because this ball is out of the park
and into the Alleghenny River!"

"[batter] is retired for the first time today"

"we're still deadlocked at [score]"

"six and a half gone by here in [city name]"

"yet another walk given up by [pitcher]"

"[pitcher] struggling with his location"

"amazingly beat out an infield hit last time up"

"[pitcher] would love to throw a ground ball"

"reached every time so far off [pitcher]"

"[pitcher] hasn't retired him yet"

"not having much luck at the plate lately"

"one shortstop throwing out the other"

"getting out of the inning without further damage"

"and [batter] has just earned a carton of Old Golds"

"struck out with the bases loaded last time"

"trouble brewing here in the [inning]"

"FINALLY retiring the side"

"and those are not 'BOO'S'
but 'LOU'S'
raining down from the stands!"

"as [batter] steps in to open the fourth"

"has wiped out that 3-0 lead in a hurry!"

"he puts an end to the [team] rally"

"-- [team] looking to tack on a run --"

"unless [pitcher] can improve his move to first
baserunners will continue to take advantage of him"

"and boy is THAT a big out!"

"but this ballpark plays very big"

"-- who fields his position well --"

[DaddyO]

All I can say is it feels like real baseball. I should let others chime in though, since I've been posting too much on this topic.

Frankly, there's no way you can just play out a few games and get an appreciation for it. It's like fine wine. It ages on you and tastes all the better. The more you play it, the more you appreciate it. I don't know how else to say it.

It is not perfect by any means, since there always seem to be a few calls that happen too frequently. Some that people had complained about were addressed in the 9c patch, but then some new ones popped up. Who knows if/when these will be addressed.

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I really like the DMB PBP.

Is it consistently that good or are we just getting the best of DMB?

I have played DMB from the very first version which was called Pursue the Pennant and over the last 18-20 years I would estimate that I have played out well over 3000 full games, so I feel fairly comfortable saying that the DMB PbP while good has it's fair share of routine average PbP plays. Don't get me wrong, it is the cadilac of PbP where OOTP has now managed to move up to the sedan class of PbP from it's previous moped class of PbP.

Since I am also a hard core DMB fan, the thing that you need to realize is that DMB would not exist without a very robust PbP engine. Outside of playing games there is precious little else to do with the game. There is no player development, no trading, no GM duties, no draft, etc. What there is, however, is an excellent game engine that is able to replicate past season stats with a reasonable amount of accuracy. The effort that has been put into the PbP has to be high or else you have nothing but a nice stat generator posing itself as a baseball game. I applaud Tom and Jack for knowing just how important having a robust PbP engine was and how critical it would be to the overall success of DMB.

I think Markus is failing to take advantage of the end of the PC version of DMB as we know it by failing to even acknowledge that there are many of us who are clammering for some sort of dedicated effort in the area of the OOTP PbP engine. What we get instead is Markus continually tacking on new features at the expense of glaring holes in the existing game.

I love new features as much as the next guy, but to constantly add more while ignoring the myriad of long standing bugs and underdeveloped areas of the game is a recipe for disaster. In my opinion, the perfect candidate for an OOTP "update" would be an "update" where PbP would be the main focus. Doing this would allow Markus the much needed time to properly assess and make the necessary adjustments/revisions/additions to the PbP engine in a timely manner.

I am sure most of us who play out our games in OOTP or potential OOTP customers who are looking for a replacent for DMB would be very happy to see some sort of announcement like this.

-Cork55

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cork55

I think Markus is failing to take advantage of the end of the PC version of DMB as we know it by failing to even acknowledge that there are many of us who are clammering for some sort of dedicated effort in the area of the OOTP PbP engine.

I think the fact that Markus is the primary coder for the game is the main issue. He doesn't have the luxury of hiring a staff of two or three other coders to help program the game. That surely has an impact when the majority of the job falls onto one person's shoulders.

Originally Posted by Cork55

In my opinion, the perfect candidate for an OOTP "update" would be an "update" where PbP would be the main focus.

For that to work, you're going to have to recruit a good and dedicated set of volunteers to write that improved, extensive PbP, since, as noted above, OOTP Developments isn't big enough to hire a good writer or two to do it full-time.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I really like the DMB PBP.

Is it consistently that good or are we just getting the best of DMB?

It really is that good. I've played out thousands of DMB games, and I still get something brand new every once in a while. As Daddy O said, you get just the right mix between routine plays, highlight reel plays, and weirdness. There's not much misdirection (one of the things OOTP still does too much of. Every outfielder that hits the ground should not come up holding the ball), but there is considerable suspense. That's partially because of the immense variety of pbp, and it's partially because it's well written. This last DMB patch took the pbp over the top, as far as I'm concerned. I now feel like I'm listening to the announcer rather than reading something for the 50th time, because the pbp can go an entire three game series without repeating itself on anything other than routine balls and strikes, and the variety has gone beyond the point where I can recite the next line from memory. I'd rate it at least a 9.5 on a 10 point scale, and it's about the last advantage DMB has over OOTP, aside from baserunner advancement, proper scoring of unearned runs, and a few other minor nits.

That's not to say the OOTP pbp is bad, because it's not. I'd compare it favorably to Strat and BBW, and it's at least even with Action. The in-game experience has been a weak point with OOTP for a long time, but this version has done a lot to overcome the weakness. The engine's better, the pbp's better, and the game feels more like real baseball.

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think the fact that Markus is the primary coder for the game is the main issue. He doesn't have the luxury of hiring a staff of two or three other coders to help program the game. That surely has an impact when the majority of the job falls onto one person's shoulders.

Yet he can somehow find time to add extra new features after the feature lock at the expense of the pleading from the PbP team for just a tiny bit of love.

For that to work, you're going to have to recruit a good and dedicated set of volunteers to write that improved, extensive PbP, since, as noted above, OOTP Developments isn't big enough to hire a good writer or two to do it full-time.

Ummm, I think Tysok and Pstrickert and the rest of us on the PbP beta team could handle it very nicely. What do you think the PbP team has been doing all this time? It hasn't been Markus writing the PbP lines or the news stories.

-Cork55

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

It really is that good. I've played out thousands of DMB games, and I still get something brand new every once in a while. As Daddy O said, you get just the right mix between routine plays, highlight reel plays, and weirdness. There's not much misdirection (one of the things OOTP still does too much of. Every outfielder that hits the ground should not come up holding the ball), but there is considerable suspense.

This is where OOTP still comes up a bit short in my opinion. You don't need to have suspence in every play in a baseball game when the majority of plays in a real game are routine at best.

That's partially because of the immense variety of pbp, and it's partially because it's well written.

OOTP probably has light years more variety than DMB, but because it is put together in a modular fashion it loses some of its flow. This allows for some mechanical sounding PbP at times.

This last DMB patch took the pbp over the top, as far as I'm concerned. I now feel like I'm listening to the announcer rather than reading something for the 50th time, because the pbp can go an entire three game series without repeating itself on anything other than routine balls and strikes, and the variety has gone beyond the point where I can recite the next line from memory.

You and I must have a different version of DMB, because I routinely see the same PbP snippets in 9c. The variety is decent, but nowhere even close to what you suggest. I would rate it only marginally better than the OOTP in this area.

I'd rate it at least a 9.5 on a 10 point scale, and it's about the last advantage DMB has over OOTP, aside from baserunner advancement, proper scoring of unearned runs, and a few other minor nits.

The OOTP baserunning is horrible and Markus would do well to study how DMB handles it's baserunning.

That's not to say the OOTP pbp is bad, because it's not. I'd compare it favorably to Strat and BBW, and it's at least even with Action. The in-game experience has been a weak point with OOTP for a long time, but this version has done a lot to overcome the weakness. The engine's better, the pbp's better, and the game feels more like real baseball.

I hate it when people say that the OOTP game experience doesn't feel like real baseball. It would be nice to see some specific examples to back up this claim. OOTP has it share of issues, but it certainly does capture the feel of real baseball. It might not be on par with DMB, but it is certainly much better than any other game out there.

-Cork55

[swampdragon]

I'll give one example of where I can lose my feel of the game with the latest version, and it's with the baserunning. I'm replaying 1871, so I'm getting more errors than the average dragon. One of those plays involves a runner going first to third on a single. If the throw to third is wild, the batter will go to second, but the runner on third never scores. I would say various baserunning oddities comprise the majority of the times I scratch my head during my play of the game. One of these days, I'll play a game or two out, take notes of the weird spots, and post them. I never did it before because I really like to play the game and didn't want to be critical, but this may be the point where the game is now good enough that these kinds of details should be looked at and fixed. I am a big supporter of version 9, and I don't want to sound like I don't recognize the strides that have been made over the last two years.

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I'll give one example of where I can lose my feel of the game with the latest version, and it's with the baserunning. I'm replaying 1871, so I'm getting more errors than the average dragon. One of those plays involves a runner going first to third on a single. If the throw to third is wild, the batter will go to second, but the runner on third never scores. I would say various baserunning oddities comprise the majority of the times I scratch my head during my play of the game. One of these days, I'll play a game or two out, take notes of the weird spots, and post them. I never did it before because I really like to play the game and didn't want to be critical, but this may be the point where the game is now good enough that these kinds of details should be looked at and fixed. I am a big supporter of version 9, and I don't want to sound like I don't recognize the strides that have been made over the last two years.

Well said. The whole base running system needs a complete review as there are too many plays that just make no sense from a baseball perspective.

-Cork55

[pstrickert]

Don't get Cork started!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

Is it consistently that good or are we just getting the best of DMB?

It's consistently that good. In fact, it's consistently outstanding.

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's consistently that good. In fact, it's consistently outstanding.

Best overstatement I have seen today.

-Cork55

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Don't get Cork started!

It's a slow night around here tonight, so I might as well lobby a bit for better PbP and base running.

-Cork55

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cork55

Ummm, I think Tysok and Pstrickert and the rest of us on the PbP beta team could handle it very nicely.

Of course. But the volunteer route is a longer and more difficult process since it relies on the willingness and ability of people to devote time their free time to the project.

Originally Posted by Cork55

It hasn't been Markus writing the PbP lines or the news stories.

No, but he's the one who's got to code the support for all the various tokens and make sure they're working properly with each other. And there's demands from lots of other areas for Markus' coding time.

Frankly, I can think of two (related) areas which, in my view, would more fundamentally change the way the game works for the better ahead of improving the PbP.

But it's all a matter of priorities, and Markus is the one who has final say on that. Best we can do is campaign for our respective causes...

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

If the PBP does get improved, and you start playing out more games, then perhaps ball flight & sound may be of greater interest to you (and many many others).

Never say never, but in all the years I've played ballgames with DMB I haven't felt a need for sound or a display of where the ball is hit. To be fair, other DMB'ers have asked for those things. Maybe another poster is right when he says that some people who grew up listening to games on the radio would have less need for graphic and audio enhancements. Living in Canada, I didn't get to see any live big-league games while I was growing up, but I used to listen to the Tigers on the radio back in the days when Aurelio Rodriguez was at third. Anyway, personally I'm perfectly content to read a really good pbp description and visualize the action. I just hope that the addition of sound and limited graphics to OOTP doesn't signal that Markus is favouring those areas INSTEAD of improving the pbp. If he gives a solid upgrade to the pbp and wants to improve the chrome too, it will be okie-dokie with me.

And by the way, speaking of sound ..... if it's going to be in the game anyway ........ how about recreating the ballpark atmosphere of different eras? Could be an interesting optional thing that could even change over the years like the financials. A modern game might have wall to wall rock music etc, while a game from an earlier period might have the odd trumpet call and organ music. Or even the Dodger Sym-Phony or equivalent back in the 40's and 50's! Anyone know what a game was like audio-wise in the 1920's or earlier? I know there were brass bands in the stands at some earlier games, and the fans would sing things like that "Tessie" song. When did organs come into ballparks anyway?

[Ceej]

Originally Posted by spitfire

When did organs come into ballparks anyway?

April 26, 1941 at Wrigley Field. It was one-day stunt by new Cubs GM James Gallagher.

[David Watts]

Spitfire---Aurelio Rodriguez? Of All the Tigers from that period, you bring up Aurelio Rodriguez? Thank you. He was my first boyhood hero. Did you ever get to see him live? Incredible.. he made great plays effortlessly, and had a cannon for a Arm. You made my day. Oh and Ernie wasn't hard on the ears either.

[thbroman]

I don't want to get into a shouting match with anyone, but I thought that I would just add my thanks for the herculean efforts of the PbP team in this release. It's gotten better again, thanks to you guys. What a wonder!

At the same time, I'm going to say that in my opinion making a major improvement to the PbP system should not be a major priority of the next release. I would much rather see improvements to the minor league system and financials and, most of all, FINALLY a resolution of the accursed pitcher endurance issue!

But as Eugene said earlier in the thread, this game is trying to meet the needs of payers with very divergent agendas!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cork55

It's a slow night around here tonight, so I might as well lobby a bit for better PbP and base running.

It's always a good night to looby for better PbP and base running!

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Ceej

April 26, 1941 at Wrigley Field. It was one-day stunt by new Cubs GM James Gallagher.

Must have worked passably well, to say the least. No doubt the Organ Players Association must have been well pleased! Thanks for the info.