Real 19th Century Schedules

[burnstuff]

I did a search for 1871 schedules, and apparently they exist, but I couldn't find a link to them. Does anyone want to help me out?

[Le Grande Orange]

I'm working on a set, based, where possible, closely on the real-world 19th century schedules. There wasn't time, unfortunately, to get them completed before the game was released.

I've got twelve of the thirty pre-1901 seasons almost ready to go, leaving eighteen seasons to complete...

[ssacc98]

You should be able to find them at Retrosheet.

[No Pepper]

A good many thanks go to you LGO for your trouble. I know there have been some who have used their schedules but never had the time or thought to share them. Are the schedules you working on accounting for odd number of teams as well as the instability of say, the National Association? A while back, I tried making an '71 as played schedule but the game kept crashing.

[swampdragon]

When I try to upload it, I get an "invalid file" message. I've got an 1871 semi-as-played schedule with more off days. Create an 1871 historical game. Be sure to turn off the draft and import rookies to original teams. Check "Enable Interleague Play." Uncheck "Initial Draft". That will give you the real players for the Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland, and Chicago teams. Then you create the Fort Wayne team and move the others (I did Baltimore to Washington, Brooklyn to Troy, St. Louis to Rockford, and Cincinnati to New York. That shouldn't matter.) Next you clear the original schedule and input the as-played schedule (manually, ugh.). Then you go into the free agency pool and assign the players to the five teams that don't have any, using your handy encyclopedia. You're good to go.

It is apparently impossible to save a working quickstart with an odd number of teams. It will save, but will crash when you try to load it. I don't know what happens if I try to advance an odd number of teams into the next season, but if it's a problem, I'll have to contract Fort Wayne and then add the new teams in the preseason and do another schedule by hand for 1872. And so forth.

When you're trying to input these schedules by hand, Spring Training is the enemy, because the date is fixed before you change the schedule. Turn it off when you create the game. They didn't hold spring training in the 1870s anyway.

Edit: I retained the two subleague setup. I believe the game is more stable when you don't add and delete subleagues.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by ssacc98

You should be able to find them at Retrosheet.

You can get the as played schedules in the game logs. The original schedules are in a separate area, and, regrettably, have not been updated (by me mostly) in quite a few years now.

Originally Posted by No Pepper

A good many thanks go to you LGO for your trouble. I know there have been some who have used their schedules but never had the time or thought to share them. Are the schedules you working on accounting for odd number of teams as well as the instability of say, the National Association?

The first thing to note is that the pre-1901 structure has to be simplified for OOTP because it cannot, as yet, handle the kind of league expansions, contractions, and folding which went on in real life.

Garlon designed the pre-1901 league structure as it exists currently in the game (I personally would have done it somewhat differently, mostly to eliminate the need to adjust the schedules). The adjusted structure works like this: two subleagues are required from the start; one stands in for the AA, and the other is essentially the NL. From 1871-1881, there are four teams in each subleague. In 1882, each subleague expands to eight teams, and stays that way through to 1901.

Since I'm doing the schedule files, I've taken the liberty to do them as I feel is most reflective of the historical reality. The number of games in each year will work out like this:

1871: 30 games
1872: 48 games
1873: 54 games
1874: 60 games
1875-1876: 72 games
1877-1878: 60 or 72 games (haven't decided yet)
1879-1882: 84 games
1883: 98 games
1884-1885: 112 games
1886-1887: 140 games (AA/AL), 126 games (NL)
1888-1891: 140 games
1892-1899: 126 games
1900: 140 games

The reason for the drop to 126 games from 1892-99 is to keep the total number of games being played from getting too large in comparison to reality. In the real world, from 1891-1900, there were 7,424 games scheduled. In OOTP, due to the larger number of teams (16 vs. 12 or 8), if 140 games was used all the way through it would result in 9,632 games, some 29.7% more games. That would mean the players would be getting a lot more games in OOTP than they did in reality. By dropping 1891-99 to 126 games, it cuts the overall number of games to 9,184. This is 23.7% more than reality, still a fair amount higher , but certainly less than when using 140 games.

Plus it does echo the shorter schedule the NL used from 1892-97.

The 1882-1891 schedule files will be almost exact duplicates of the real-world schedules; the other years require more editing. It'd be easier if I wasn't such a picky perfectionist, but since I am, I've ended up editing real schedules to ensure such things as the cities represented in OOTP's portrayal of the 19th century only play Sunday home games the same years their real life counterparts did. And I'm trying to keep the road trips looking realistic, which means being careful about how one year's schedule is reused by swapping teams around.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so pick and pefectionist... it'd sure make things easier and quicker!

[swampdragon]

Will your schedules be part of the July patch?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Will your schedules be part of the July patch?

I'm trying, not sure if it'll be done in time — it depends on when the July patch is going to go out.


On another note, I'm thinking of having interleague play occurring from 1871-1881. Two reasons for this:

1) It means I can use the real schedules for 1876 and 1879-81 with a minimum of editing;
2) It means there'd be a better distribution of player interactions as compared to having play occur only within each four-team subleague.

With the 1871-81 seasons limited to subleague play only, it means a lot of games against the same teams each season. This consequently would mean many fewer matchups between certain pitchers and batters than happened in real life. I can't but help think this might negatively impact the player statistics. By having a balanced, interleague schedule it means the historical players will have their games distributed amongst opponent clubs and players just like in real life, which should eliminate any potential statistical troubles.

Given that having two (sub)leagues in those years is a fiction anyway, it doesn't seem to me to be that objectionable to have interleague play happening for those seasons, especially in light of what I mentioned above.

What does everyone else think?

[swampdragon]

I endorse interleague play for that time period. No question that it's better not to have just three other teams on the schedule. I'd prefer that each team play every other team the same number of times.

I also endorse interleague play for 1892-1900, but I don't think it's quite as important. I just hate to see the Orioles plus Cy Young (Cleveland) over in the American League not matching up with Boston, New York, or Philadelphia. I'd honestly prefer a six team per subleague format with full interleague play for that period.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I also endorse interleague play for 1892-1900, but I don't think it's quite as important. I just hate to see the Orioles plus Cy Young (Cleveland) over in the American League not matching up with Boston, New York, or Philadelphia. I'd honestly prefer a six team per subleague format with full interleague play for that period.

Interesting idea, I hadn't thought of that.

The thing is, one it reaches 16 teams it can't be cut back to 12 teams.

Your point about player interactions is noted for the 1892-1899 period is noted. I already have the basics for a standard balanced 126-game schedule for each 8-team subleague for that period; perhaps I can create a version that includes reasonably balanced interleague play as an alternative selection.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Interesting idea, I hadn't thought of that.

The thing is, one it reaches 16 teams it can't be cut back to 12 teams.

Your point about player interactions is noted for the 1892-1899 period is noted. I already have the basics for a standard balanced 126-game schedule for each 8-team subleague for that period; perhaps I can create a version that includes reasonably balanced interleague play as an alternative selection.

What happens if I turn off automatic expansion for those 9 years and delete the 4 teams manually in preseason 1892? I think the park factors for the 19th century are all in the game as neutral, anyway. Can I turn automatic expansion on and off like that?

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

You can get the as played schedules in the game logs. The original schedules are in a separate area, and, regrettably, have not been updated (by me mostly) in quite a few years now.

The first thing to note is that the pre-1901 structure has to be simplified for OOTP because it cannot, as yet, handle the kind of league expansions, contractions, and folding which went on in real life.

Garlon designed the pre-1901 league structure as it exists currently in the game (I personally would have done it somewhat differently, mostly to eliminate the need to adjust the schedules). The adjusted structure works like this: two subleagues are required from the start; one stands in for the AA, and the other is essentially the NL. From 1871-1881, there are four teams in each subleague. In 1882, each subleague expands to eight teams, and stays that way through to 1901.

Since I'm doing the schedule files, I've taken the liberty to do them as I feel is most reflective of the historical reality. The number of games in each year will work out like this:

1871: 30 games
1872: 48 games
1873: 54 games
1874: 60 games
1875-1876: 72 games
1877-1878: 60 or 72 games (haven't decided yet)
1879-1882: 84 games
1883: 98 games

If you were using full interleague play, that would be 28 or 35 games for 1871, 42 or 49 for 1872, 56 for 1873-74. and 70 for 1875-1878 (mirroring the 70 game schedule of 1876, the only year of the four when there really were eight teams).

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

What happens if I turn off automatic expansion for those 9 years and delete the 4 teams manually in preseason 1892? I think the park factors for the 19th century are all in the game as neutral, anyway. Can I turn automatic expansion on and off like that?

I'm not really sure. I've never played around with making those kinds of changes to historical leagues.

Originally Posted by swampdragon

If you were using full interleague play, that would be 28 or 35 games for 1871, 42 or 49 for 1872, 56 for 1873-74. and 70 for 1875-1878 (mirroring the 70 game schedule of 1876, the only year of the four when there really were eight teams).

On the other hand, the NA never played balanced schedules so it's not unreasonable to have some slight variations. I picked the number of games for each NA season to be a reflection of the total number of games actually played spread amongst eight teams and then adjusted to bring the number in proximity to the average number played by the most NA active clubs.

[ashantewarrier]

Hey LGO,

Is iit possible you can e-mail me the 19th century schedules you have been working on? I know that the complete set may not be finished but I am willing to take whatever you have?

I am in the middle of a historical sim (year 1879) and hate the default scheduler as it clusters games in blocks and does not account for off days. This effects simulation play in adverse way I believe.

I have enjoyed use of your schedules over the years and your efforts are much appreciated.


Let me know is this is okay and thanks again!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Is iit possible you can e-mail me the 19th century schedules you have been working on? I know that the complete set may not be finished but I am willing to take whatever you have?

Possibly... I still have to convert those seasons more or less ready over to OOTP's schedule file format. Let me check on that first...

[ashantewarrier]

Thanks LGO!

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Possibly... I still have to convert those seasons more or less ready over to OOTP's schedule file format. Let me check on that first...

Any update on those schedules LGO?

[ashantewarrier]

Just wanted to bump up and keep this thread alive.