Refunds? Deception?

[tysok]

I think perhaps people don't realize what goes into this game.

Markus is the programmer, he codes everything, he decides what goes in and what doesn't, he makes the tweaks that make this a better simulation of baseball and he makes the options that everyone loves work right. He does that.

But he's not alone, he's just the only one getting paid. I think, I would hope, that even Markus would admit the game would not be as good as it is without the help of a WHOLE SLEW of other people who volunteer their time to make OOTP as good as it is.

If anyone thinks that player development follows the Tango curve as well as it does (it may not be perfect, but it's close and it's better than anything else out there by a huge margin) because Markus spent time analyzing data, they're dreaming - and dreaming of an army of carbon copies of Markus inhabiting a country called Markusland. It follows that because some extremely diligent and hard working people pulled off data, discussed it, argued over it, and suggested changes.... it was tweaked and then the process repeated, and it repeated 50+ times over and over again.

I've read in here that some think the trade AI is a lot better. They can thank the army of beta testers that worked their behinds off over the last few months, the ones who went blind trying to rip off the AI and pointing out every little mistake they thought appropriate.

You like the new historical pieces? Thank the guys on the historical team and the guy who spent a heep load of time writing up a suggestion of how it could be handled better. Then thank that army of beta testers who burned up their computers for months running historical sims, and who went blind looking at the stat outputs day after day and pointing out the problems.

If anyone likes the news or pbp text, you can thank everyone who spent any time at all writing suggestions to be put in, thank the guy who spent hours on hours of time putting that text in and substituting the tokens so it worked, thank those guys who spent the entire beta running test season after test season doing nothing but reading those news articles and studying the pbp for inconsistencies.

Think injuries are better at all? More real? Thank the guys who spent hours upon hours pulling off OOTP injury data, pulling out real life injury data, and comparing and arguing over how it should look in game.

Pat every beta tester you see on the back for making the game what it is. When you're done doing that, give everyone else you see a pat on the back as well, because it isn't just the beta testers who've helped to make this game what it is right now. They just sacrificed a lot more time and effort to it, and from what I've seen so far there isn't any of them asking your praise for it.

The game WAS promised to include rosters. That's true. But if anyone thinks that Markus had any hand in making them at all their dreaming of Markusland again. I don't know who all worked on them, but I know it was a handful of beta testers that did it. Do those beta testers wish they'd had a little longer to do it? Maybe, probably, but they didn't. They worked their behinds off over the last couple months and got this put together. They decided to sit down at their computers and work on this roster set instead of going out to play with their kids on Saturday afternoon, or maybe when they can't sleep they decided to mess with the rosters instead of taking a Tylenol PM and getting enough sleep for the next day. Why do they do that? And why will they continue to do that for the next couple of months while everyone else is playing the game and enjoying it to any degree?

We pay Markus for his time and knowledge of coding, without him there isn't any game. But without the community here the game isn't what it is.

If you want a refund because the roster set isn't everything you dreamed of (or maybe it is in diarray right now, I don't play historicals or reality) then that is certainly your right.
But when someone starts complaining on the boards that the roster set is horrible and it sucks and that it's deception --- that's not an insult to only Markus. It's an insult to everyone who volunteered their time and energy to try to give you what you want. It's an insult to every beta tester who loaded that roster set and glanced at it. It's an insult to every beta tester that did anything at all during their time.

There should be no surprise that some took it as an insult, and are posting likewise. Markus isn't OOTP, he's the leader of OOTP.

[Sudy Nym]

Originally Posted by RchW

It's got nothing to do with "how things work" here. It's got to do with common sense and good manners. ... Complain long and loud all you want. Agitate, demand, beg. Don't accuse a person or a company of deception unless you have solid evidence of same.

Common sense and good manners aren't something I expect from the internet in most any facet, any longer. I'll settle for relative sanity.

The point of your story is well taken. But this isn't a professional exchange. It's a post on a message board for a video game. As far as the original poster is concerned, the proof of deception is that he didn't receive what he thought he paid for. As far as I'm concerned that gives him the right to make such a post here, even if he didn't go about it in a polite manner (however regretful that may be). I just wish the community could have risen above the hostility contained in his first post.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Sudy Nym

See, I don't think it's necessarily there that he thinks OOTPD purposely mislead anyone. Just that he himself feels deceived, whether it was intentional or not. And I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable even if it may not be justified.

Yeah, he didn't greet the community with a smile. But that doesn't mean the community shouldn't have greeted him with one. Ah well. Perhaps my tolerance level for jerks is unrealistically high since I don't hang around here enough, or something.

Deception by definition is on purpose.

<table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">the act of deceiving; the state of being deceived. </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">2.</td><td valign="top">something that deceives or is intended to deceive; fraud; artifice.</td></tr></tbody></table>

The OP is not a jerk. He has a completely justified complaint rendered useless by an unfortunate accusation. Why can't we hold people responsible for what they say?

[Neags23]

Originally Posted by tysok

I think perhaps people don't realize what goes into this game............

Ahhhh... Cubs hater or not, tysok, that was a helluva post.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by tysok

I think perhaps people don't realize what goes into this game.

Markus is the programmer, he codes everything, he decides what goes in and what doesn't, he makes the tweaks that make this a better simulation of baseball and he makes the options that everyone loves work right. He does that.

But he's not alone, he's just the only one getting paid. I think, I would hope, that even Markus would admit the game would not be as good as it is without the help of a WHOLE SLEW of other people who volunteer their time to make OOTP as good as it is.

If anyone thinks that player development follows the Tango curve as well as it does (it may not be perfect, but it's close and it's better than anything else out there by a huge margin) because Markus spent time analyzing data, they're dreaming - and dreaming of an army of carbon copies of Markus inhabiting a country called Markusland. It follows that because some extremely diligent and hard working people pulled off data, discussed it, argued over it, and suggested changes.... it was tweaked and then the process repeated, and it repeated 50+ times over and over again.

I've read in here that some think the trade AI is a lot better. They can thank the army of beta testers that worked their behinds off over the last few months, the ones who went blind trying to rip off the AI and pointing out every little mistake they thought appropriate.

You like the new historical pieces? Thank the guys on the historical team and the guy who spent a heep load of time writing up a suggestion of how it could be handled better. Then thank that army of beta testers who burned up their computers for months running historical sims, and who went blind looking at the stat outputs day after day and pointing out the problems.

If anyone likes the news or pbp text, you can thank everyone who spent any time at all writing suggestions to be put in, thank the guy who spent hours on hours of time putting that text in and substituting the tokens so it worked, thank those guys who spent the entire beta running test season after test season doing nothing but reading those news articles and studying the pbp for inconsistencies.

Think injuries are better at all? More real? Thank the guys who spent hours upon hours pulling off OOTP injury data, pulling out real life injury data, and comparing and arguing over how it should look in game.

Pat every beta tester you see on the back for making the game what it is. When you're done doing that, give everyone else you see a pat on the back as well, because it isn't just the beta testers who've helped to make this game what it is right now. They just sacrificed a lot more time and effort to it, and from what I've seen so far there isn't any of them asking your praise for it.

The game WAS promised to include rosters. That's true. But if anyone thinks that Markus had any hand in making them at all their dreaming of Markusland again. I don't know who all worked on them, but I know it was a handful of beta testers that did it. Do those beta testers wish they'd had a little longer to do it? Maybe, probably, but they didn't. They worked their behinds off over the last couple months and got this put together. They decided to sit down at their computers and work on this roster set instead of going out to play with their kids on Saturday afternoon, or maybe when they can't sleep they decided to mess with the rosters instead of taking a Tylenol PM and getting enough sleep for the next day. Why do they do that? And why will they continue to do that for the next couple of months while everyone else is playing the game and enjoying it to any degree?

We pay Markus for his time and knowledge of coding, without him there isn't any game. But without the community here the game isn't what it is.

If you want a refund because the roster set isn't everything you dreamed of (or maybe it is in diarray right now, I don't play historicals or reality) then that is certainly your right.
But when someone starts complaining on the boards that the roster set is horrible and it sucks and that it's deception --- that's not an insult to only Markus. It's an insult to everyone who volunteered their time and energy to try to give you what you want. It's an insult to every beta tester who loaded that roster set and glanced at it. It's an insult to every beta tester that did anything at all during their time.

There should be no surprise that some took it as an insult, and are posting likewise. Markus isn't OOTP, he's the leader of OOTP.

Well said, but I am not the only one who codes or gets paid. It's me, Andreas, Steve, Aurelio and the guy who does the interface system, his name is Paul. I wish we'd sell more copies, then we could put a few more guys from our team on the payroll, there are several who'd deserve it.

And without the testers and helpers this game would never be as good as it is right now. Never, ever.

[Hammerdog]

Well....

A few things.

1. Rereading my post, I understand several of the flames. Fine. I had some of them coming.

2. OOTP replied promptly and politely to my refund request.

3. I do know what the FTC does. I work on legal issues involving the FTC on a DAILY basis. There is not an agency that harms consumers more than the FTC. But that is a discussion for a different board....

4. Hence, my sarcasm. I know full well what a consumer protection agency would do with any letter about OOTP. Not that this isn't what they do--claims of unfair or deceptive practices are exactly what the FTC investigates. Not that they would represent me in court, but they would take an enforcement action under the FTC Act. But they have bigger fish to fry. Again, mea culpa.

5. In short, deception from the FTC's perspective is making false claims that induce a reasonable consumer. I will now use it as a handy reference to support my initial claim. You can decide whether the claims about a 2008 roster--made so prominently--would induce a reasonable person to buy the game. I suppose some people disagree whether working 2008 rosters were included. I guess people like playing games with incomplete rosters, players with no ratings, etc. But I don't think that qualifies as the roster advertised. That is deception. I'm sorry, but it's true. If you don't have full rosters, don't advertise them. It's that simple.

6. Despite the flames, nobody has refuted the point that the rosters were advertised and they aren't there--at least not in a form that doesn't require significant revisions by the purchaser.

7. For the folks who think I'm just wrong--I'm not alone in my belief. Check out other posts all over this board. Clearly there is an issue here.

8. The fact that OOTP has such fanatic defenders speaks well for the company. Indeed, I had a good experience with OOTP2007. But come on, people. Example: to suggest the thread should be closed because the resident roster maven can play the game out of the box? I didn't say I couldn't play with the rosters provided. I said they weren't what was advertised. My heavens, people.

[Mikecouil]

A couple things:

ANY criticism about this game posted on these forums is going to get flamed. It's just the way it works around here. At first it seemed irrational to me and downright stupid that whenever anyone brings up ANY negative about OOTP he just gets trashed, no matter how justifiable the criticism is.

For many people this game is like a baby to them. It's like someone telling you your kid isn't going to make the high school baseball team because he isn't any good. You take it personally regardless if the criticism is justified or not.

I don't share the emotional attachment that many of the more passionate customers of the game have, but I have enjoyed the product enough to purchase it on release date since 2002.

I have my beefs just like everyone else, one of which was promptly flamed yesterday, but overall I am happy enough to have spent 25.00.

The rosters don't bother me all that much. I think a pretty valiant attempt was made at them and I know that there will be a patch to address some of the flaws, but overall I thought the rosters was one of the very nice addittions.

[The Wolf]

The current roster set does suck. This does not bother me, as I have zero interest in it, but I feel for those for whom current rosters are important.

But they can get their refund from eLicense and move on.

What they probably ought to do is to discover how richly OOTP handles historical and fictional play, but I don't see that happening with people who are only concerned with the present.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Hammerdog

The fact that OOTP has such fanatic defenders speaks well for the company.

Yes, but it speaks badly for the error-blind defenders. There is a serious fanboy chorus here for whom OOTP and Markus can do no wrong. This blind loyalty and resistance to even fully-justified criticism (see OOTP 2006) has hurt the game and not helped it. Users need to be able to recognize and acknowledge shortcomings and failures in software for it to progress properly. This process is held back here by the fanboys, who discourage any public criticism at all of the game by attacking it upon its appearance and will, rather predictably, personally attack a critic for no reason other than he dares to criticize their Holy Game. The moderators historically have failed to stop this and at times in the past (not the current set) appear to have been in on it. One critic was once suspended without ever receiving a warning, in violation of the board's own rules.

What is needed on this board is the ability to have a fair and honest discussion of the game, warts, shortcomings, screwups, errors and all, without the fanboys attacking those pointing them out to prevent criticism from happening or with the moderators finally stepping up and in and stopping the fanboys in their tracks. I don't ever see that happening here, but it's what is needed.

[Melo]

Originally Posted by Hammerdog

Well....

A few things.

1. Rereading my post, I understand several of the flames. Fine. I had some of them coming.

2. OOTP replied promptly and politely to my refund request.

3. I do know what the FTC does. I work on legal issues involving the FTC on a DAILY basis. There is not an agency that harms consumers more than the FTC. But that is a discussion for a different board....

4. Hence, my sarcasm. I know full well what a consumer protection agency would do with any letter about OOTP. Not that this isn't what they do--claims of unfair or deceptive practices are exactly what the FTC investigates. Not that they would represent me in court, but they would take an enforcement action under the FTC Act. But they have bigger fish to fry. Again, mea culpa.

5. In short, deception from the FTC's perspective is making false claims that induce a reasonable consumer. I will now use it as a handy reference to support my initial claim. You can decide whether the claims about a 2008 roster--made so prominently--would induce a reasonable person to buy the game. I suppose some people disagree whether working 2008 rosters were included. I guess people like playing games with incomplete rosters, players with no ratings, etc. But I don't think that qualifies as the roster advertised. That is deception. I'm sorry, but it's true. If you don't have full rosters, don't advertise them. It's that simple.

6. Despite the flames, nobody has refuted the point that the rosters were advertised and they aren't there--at least not in a form that doesn't require significant revisions by the purchaser.

7. For the folks who think I'm just wrong--I'm not alone in my belief. Check out other posts all over this board. Clearly there is an issue here.

8. The fact that OOTP has such fanatic defenders speaks well for the company. Indeed, I had a good experience with OOTP2007. But come on, people. Example: to suggest the thread should be closed because the resident roster maven can play the game out of the box? I didn't say I couldn't play with the rosters provided. I said they weren't what was advertised. My heavens, people.

From my point of view, your post would have been more credible had the FTC and attorney general references been left out. A consumer should use those avenues as a last resort when in dispute not as an initial threat. Typically the customer who opens with threats is not a customer who wants an amicable settlement but is a customer who wants a fight. I'm glad Markus was considerate and polite with his reply. A lot of "companies" aren't. A lot of customers aren't either.

[Neags23]

Originally Posted by Mikecouil

A couple things:

ANY criticism about this game posted on these forums is going to get flamed. It's just the way it works around here. At first it seemed irrational to me and downright stupid that whenever anyone brings up ANY negative about OOTP he just gets trashed, no matter how justifiable the criticism is.

This really isn't true at all. I don't think there's a person here that thinks the game is absolutely perfect. Everyone has a criticism. You should see the beta board. Those guys are the most ardent fans, but it's their/our job to rip the game apart and criticize everything they can to make the game better.

It's not that any criticism will get flamed, it's criticism that's either unwarranted, caused by a lack of knowledge, is presented in a disrespectful or rude way, or is something that has been rehashed ad nauseum. Or any criticism that threatens to involve the FTC. I'm not a vet around here.... but that's certainly a new one for me. Here's to the OP's originality if nothing else!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Neags23

It's not that any criticism will get flamed

I've seen plain vanilla totally justified criticism get flamed here and the poster personally attacked in what looked to be like a deliberate attempt to intimidate him and run him off.

The response to criticism should be, simply, to address whether the complaint is valid or not. Trying to shut people up for posting things that others don't want to see posted is pretty much just oppression in action. IMO the moderators need to be making sure as a primary concern that criticism is not suppressed. In the long run, that will benefit the game, for criticism makes things better and stronger by identifying flaws that can be fixed. Criticism needs to be encouraged, not discouraged.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Like I said in another thread, we will work on improving the roster set. I personally am happy with it, it has properly rated players & prospects, and complete stats & history. Sure, no roster set will ever be perfect, but what is included in OOTP 9 now is perfectly useable IMO.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Like I said in another thread, we will work on improving the roster set. I personally am happy with it, it has properly rated players & prospects, and complete stats & history. Sure, no roster set will ever be perfect, but what is included in OOTP 9 now is perfectly useable IMO.

That's the right approach for sure.

[bosunmate]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Like I said in another thread, we will work on improving the roster set. I personally am happy with it, it has properly rated players & prospects, and complete stats & history. Sure, no roster set will ever be perfect, but what is included in OOTP 9 now is perfectly useable IMO.

Forget about it Markus, and go for your holiday. You have put out a great edition, its not flawless but what is. You and all the othersw need a rest before you start working on patchs.

[phenom]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I've seen plain vanilla totally justified criticism get flamed here and the poster personally attacked in what looked to be like a deliberate attempt to intimidate him and run him off.

The response to criticism should be, simply, to address whether the complaint is valid or not. Trying to shut people up for posting things that others don't want to see posted is pretty much just oppression in action. IMO the moderators need to be making sure as a primary concern that criticism is not suppressed. In the long run, that will benefit the game, for criticism makes things better and stronger by identifying flaws that can be fixed. Criticism needs to be encouraged, not discouraged.

I'd agree with that, but with a caveat: As Melo said, the OP ruined much of his complaint by playing that FTC card, sarcastically or not. You do stuff like that, you take an offensive position, then you're gonna get "flamed," as it were.

You get what you give. Golden Rule and all that.

[Hammerdog]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Like I said in another thread, we will work on improving the roster set. I personally am happy with it, it has properly rated players & prospects, and complete stats & history. Sure, no roster set will ever be perfect, but what is included in OOTP 9 now is perfectly useable IMO.

I understand why you need to say this. But you do yourself a disservice to suggest that the set provided is consistent with what was advertised. I never claimed it wasn't useable. However, I did not notice the reference to a "perfectly useable but less-than-perfect roster set that would need an immediate patch to correct the many zero ratings, missing players, and other things--except contract amounts and lengths--that we knew would not be in the released game" when the game was advertised, either.

Defending one's own game "perfectly useable" is weak. Had someone else defended the game as "perfectly useable" I think people would have thought it a put down.

[torque561]

I really liked your song. Do you mind if my band covers it? We will pay royalties, that will keep ASCAP and the FTC off our backs. I think you were singing it in A. It sounded like A flat, but we think you were tuned down a half step.

[gord]

Put me in the camp that believes the OP has a legit complaint and while he could gone about it in a different way, is justified in what he believes. I was also under the belief that the game would come with full MLB and minor league rosters (within reason) - I was somewhat disappointed to see my AAA team with only five players. Since this was not a major sticking point with me, I chose to overlook it.

What's sad is the types of reponses the OP received:
"You don't like it, F-you!"
"How dare you criticize someone who works hard on this game, F-you!"
"Playing with 2008 rosters is stupid anyway, play a historical league like I do"

[phenom]

Originally Posted by gord

Put me in the camp that believes the OP has a legit complaint and while he could gone about it in a different way, is justified in what he believes. I was also under the belief that the game would come with full MLB and minor league rosters (within reason) - I was somewhat disappointed to see my AAA team with only five players. Since this was not a major sticking point with me, I chose to overlook it.

What's sad is the types of reponses the OP received:
"You don't like it, F-you!"
"How dare you criticize someone who works hard on this game, F-you!"
"Playing with 2008 rosters is stupid anyway, play a historical league like I do"

embellishing a little, wouldn't you say?

As for your AAA having five players, I believe much of that has to do with the game making decisions on the fly during league creation and whatnot. I agree that having a full AAA roster would be nice, however I also think the roster set and the game itself should be considered two different entities. Almost as a punchline here is the phrase "the game doesn't know names, only ratings," and that's what is applicable here. Are the players there, regardless of exactly where they might be located? Good. If not, then I think it's a relatively legitimate gripe.