Player Rest

[Bishop]

Originally Posted by Questdog

#2) Injuries and illness. It is very difficult to make it through a 162 game schedule without getting hurt.

Wouldn't you say fatigue is a factor in injury & illness? A well rested body is less likely to be injured and ill.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Bosscat

At what level?

The NCAA Division I limit for a player in an academic year is 56. That doesn't include conference or NCAA tournament games, but I am still struggling to get to 90-100.

Are you a pain in the putkuss or what?

I played for NKU 25 years ago. They are now Division II, but at the time we were in the NAIA.

Send me your email address or a phone number where I can fax my credentials so that you can end your struggle.....

By the way, I don't remember exactly how many games we played in an academic year. But I'm pretty sure it was a lot more than 56. My best memory is that the fall schedule was about half as long as the spring schedule. But many players (not me; I had a wife), also played in summer leagues and I'm sure they ended up playing 150-160 games in a calender year. And we played a lot fewer games than teams in the South did due to weather...

But my point is not that a college SCHEDULE is as grueling as a PROFESSIONAL schedule. My point is that a typical player does not expend enough energy in a baseball game to come home exhausted or have any kind of feeling that his body could use a little rejuvenation.

I've played in USCF sanctioned Chess tournaments (winning one; I'll also include these credentials if so desired) and that IS physically draining....

[Bosscat]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Players don't play every single game as a rule, but it has nothing to do with fatigue:

#1) Performance. Not all positions on every team have a clear cut starter whom the manager is tickled pink to have in the lineup. When a player slumps or shows he's maybe not the answer, the manager looks to other players, either to take over the position or to just give the player a break to maybe change his luck.

Of course, a player may be slumping due to fatigue and a day off helps keep a player productive.

All four reasons you give for not playing a player are accurate, but they ignore the reality that players get tired. No matter what the reason managers choose to "rest" a player, I think this game does a pretty decent job of limiting us to similar playing times for players.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Bishop

Wouldn't you say fatigue is a factor in injury & illness? A well rested body is less likely to be injured and ill.

Certainly. My point is that the fatigue does not come from PLAYING a game. The fatigue comes from other sources and sitting on the bench doesn't alleviate that.

Nearly every manager of players who have played every game (especially over the course of several seasons like Ripken and Murphy) have been second guessed about the wisdom of not giving the players a day off. Ripken even had a consecutive INNINGS streak. But Ripken, Murphy, Rose and even Jr. (who would like to play everyday) have ALL said that it's nonsense. One of 'em said (can't remember which) that if the club wanted to give him a vacation they could let him stay at home the next time the team took a road trip, but if he had to pack and fly on the derned plane and stay in a hotel, he needed to play a game to release all that frustration....

[Bosscat]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Are you a pain in the putkuss or what?

I played for NKU 25 years ago. They are now Division II, but at the time we were in the NAIA.

Send me your email address or a phone number where I can fax my credentials so that you can end your struggle.....

By the way, I don't remember exactly how many games we played in an academic year. But I'm pretty sure it was a lot more than 56. My best memory is that the fall schedule was about half as long as the spring schedule. But many players (not me; I had a wife), also played in summer leagues and I'm sure they ended up playing 150-160 games in a calender year. And we played a lot fewer games than teams in the South did due to weather...

But my point is not that a college SCHEDULE is as grueling as a PROFESSIONAL schedule. My point is that a typical player does not expend enough energy in a baseball game to come home exhausted or have any kind of feeling that his body could use a little rejuvenation.

I've played in USCF sanctioned Chess tournaments (winning one; I'll also include these credentials if so desired) and that IS physically draining....

Did you play for Bill Aker @ NKU?

I am a pain, and have been called much worse....today.

That said, you gave your personal experience as rationale for your complaint about the game. In order to judge the validity of your statement, I thought it was fair to ask at what level you had acquired that experience.

While it is not enough to convince me that all starters (except catchers) should be able to play 162 games without some effect, it does help me understand the argument you make.

Congratulations on the chess tournament. I actually hear those events can also be gruelling both mentally and physically.

FYI - I don't have information going back 25 years, but the NAIA information I have limited NAIA teams to 65 games going back 10+ years. Had you said NJCAA you would have convinced me that you reached 90-100.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Bosscat

Did you play for Bill Aker @ NKU?

I am a pain, and have been called much worse....today.

That said, you gave your personal experience as rationale for your complaint about the game. In order to judge the validity of your statement, I thought it was fair to ask at what level you had acquired that experience.

While it is not enough to convince me that all starters (except catchers) should be able to play 162 games without some effect, it does help me understand the argument you make.

Congratulations on the chess tournament. I actually hear those events can also be gruelling both mentally and physically.

FYI - I don't have information going back 25 years, but the NAIA information I have limited NAIA teams to 65 games going back 10+ years. Had you said NJCAA you would have convinced me that you reached 90-100.

Bill Aker was indeed my coach. Do you know him, or just read his name somewhere?

I don't think we played 100 games combined Fall/Spring. My best guess would be 75.... And if conference games don't count in any limit, then a league with a 56 game limit could play 90-100 games easy Fall/Spring combined....

[Questdog]

The University of Kentucky had 56 games on their spring schedule this season, not counting the SEC/NCAA tournament. I have no idea how many fall games they played or if colleges even play fall games anymore.....

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I've played in USCF sanctioned Chess tournaments (winning one; I'll also include these credentials if so desired)

What's your Elo rating?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

What's your Elo rating?

I haven't played in a tournament in over 10 years. I don't remember my exact rating, but it was a bit shy of 1800.

[Bosscat]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Bill Aker was indeed my coach. Do you know him, or just read his name somewhere?

I don't know Bill Aker but I had heard his name and thought he was at NKU.

I did not mean any disrepsect but am always interested to know where people on this board are coming from.

I hope we can agree to disgree on this issue and continue to enjoy this game.

I am not sure how many fall games teams play anymore. A school I talked to today was looking at playing 5-6 this fall, with the rest in the spring.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Bosscat

I don't know Bill Aker but I had heard his name and thought he was at NKU.

I did not mean any disrepsect but am always interested to know where people on this board are coming from.

I hope we can agree to disgree on this issue and continue to enjoy this game.

I am not sure how many fall games teams play anymore. A school I talked to today was looking at playing 5-6 this fall, with the rest in the spring.

5 or 6? What's the point of that?....except to give someone a chance to blow an arm out.....

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I haven't played in a tournament in over 10 years. I don't remember my exact rating, but it was a bit shy of 1800.

Congrats! If you got back into the groove we could probably have some good games.

[Charlie Hough]

Smaller colleges and especially junior colleges still play fall baseball. Based on my web surfing, I'd say that they average about 18 to 20 games during the two months of fall baseball, which are usually in September and October. They have a number of Saturdays where they play double-headers, and then the last couple of Saturdays are often one-game stints. There also seem to be variations in the innings played, with six for double headers and anywhere from seven to nine for single games.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Not me. None of those other players willing chose to break the record of a man whose streak stopped because he was dying. If you do coke or get drunk and do something stupid, that is one thing. If you ask that person about it later, he's going to know that he shouldn't have done it. And he probably wouldn't have done it if he had his wits about it.

If you do steroids or otherwise cheat, then you're a pathetic man who couldn't win on his own merits.

But when you consciously and wittingly make a choice like Cal Ripken did, then you're truly showing that you have no class. There's no excuse of being drunk or slipping into a momentary fit of rage. You're showing that you have no respect or honor for a baseball legend, and you kept right on playing and breaking that record even though you had months and years to rethink it.

If Ripken didn't do it, someone else would have. I don't understand this. It's an incredible feat, no matter what happened to the record-holder before. In fact, the length of time that the record was held by Gehrig will help people to continue to remember it, even if someone in the next generation passes Ripken's consecutive-games streak. It's still a special record held by the Iron Horse and nothing can change that.

Now, if you're going to argue that Ripken's chasing of the streak hurt the Orioles after 1991 because it made him a worse player than he otherwise would have been, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Honestly, I think that a consecutive-games streak is kind of a dumb stunt. But that's another argument altogether.

[ForemanFan]

Well, I'm inclined to agree with Questdog on this one. Baseball is more physical than, say, golf, but it is by no means a grueling form of competition (with the exception of performances by catchers and the arms of pitchers, as has already been said). Golf is one of the least physically demanding pro sports there is, yet how many golfers play in every tour tournament? If memory serves me correctly, Tiger Woods plays in about only half of the tourneys and is known to skip some in which he usually competes, from time to time. I'm sure that he benefits greatly from this time off and most likely plays better than he would had he not skipped the competition. Otherwise, why not play? I'm sure that he's more likely to play in events with larger purses, but that's not always a factor in choosing them.

Anyway, the above may not have been the best example, but I personally have one that is pretty darn good. I rowed for UCLA's crew team my first year there, and ended up being the 7 seat by about half-way through the season (our 8 seat was a port, so, in this case, being the 7 seat would generally mean that you're the top starboard). We rowed 6 days a week from October until right around the end of May, with twice-a-day practices on Monday-Friday, races on Saturday. The practices in the morning usually began at 5:30 while the afternoon practices (usually on the ergs) began at different times (due to most guys having conflicting class schedules). I don't know if any of you ever tried crew, but I have to say that, out of all of the different sports in which I've competed, it is by far the most taxing; physically and mentally. Along with water polos players, rowers are the most all-around in-shape athletes at any university. Bar none.

Now, that being said, I can relate it to this thread. Phew! Despite the amazingly taxing rigors of conditioning almost every single day of the week (and sometimes it was even 7!), not missing any practices or meets, suffering through blisters the likes of which only God has seen, our performances at the end of the season were far better than they were at the beginning or middle. I realize that this is largely beacuse crew relies heavily on improvements in conditioning, but if the human body weren't capable of enduring, and recovering from, the constant daily punishment by such a sport, then even the effects of a better-conditioned cardiovascular system would be negligible and the athlete's performance would gradually wane as the season's end drew nearer.

Okay, pro baseball and rowing are two different sports. One is more physically demanding than the other. And one relies a little bit more on hand-eye coordination than the other. Hand-eye coordination is much more susceptible to mental fatigue than brute strength and performance is greatly reduced or improved even by a very slight adjustment. I'd say that it's a given that being a professional athlete is emotionally draining, and that there are innumerable factors (many of which we may be unaware) that contribute to this. I'd say that it is this mental and emotional fatigue that, along with injuries suffered earlier in the year, are the greatest detractors from a baseball player's performance. I mean, just think of how much more exhuberant a player must be at the beginning of a season compared to the end of the season. It's probably the same as with anything, an academic school year, a weekly poker game, sex (hmmmmm. . . . unsure about this one) -- you're much more hyped and enthusiastic going into it than when you're nearing its conclusion.

Meh, I'm not sure if my overly-long and verbose posting has made any sense or swayed any of you. Oh well, let the flaming begin!

[Bosscat]

Originally Posted by Questdog

5 or 6? What's the point of that?....except to give someone a chance to blow an arm out.....

Not sure where they are located. Must be in the South where they can play early in the spring.

I think the thought was it gave him an opportunity to see new guys and give some returning players some game time while saving 50 or so games for the spring.

Coach may have been downplaying his fall schedule, but his intent was clearly to leave the vast majority of games for the spring.

[Curtis]

I suppose that this has been done to death, but I've never been one to let sleeping dogs lie.

During the game celebrating the 20th anniversary of the Mets' 1986 championship there was much reminiscing in the booth. Darling (starting pitcher) was saying how he felt sorry for the position players who had to play every day, and Hernandez (1st base) said that he and a few other position players were begging Davey Johnson (manager) for days off in August, but Johnson wanted to play them all the time. They were contrasting this with Willie Randolph (current manager) who probably rests his guys too often (my opinion, not theirs).

These guys were playing on the best team of their respective careers, but they were begging for rest days. Yes, there are also guys like Junior, Steve Garvey and the Mets current 3rd baseman who have to have a gun pulled on them to force them out of the lineup.

I think the problem is that there are two kinds of fatigue, mental and physical, and they exhibit different symptoms. When a guy is mentally fresh but physically tired, he'll want to play, but he'll not be up to his usual standard. When a guy is mentally tired, he doesn't want to go out on the field, so he'll do stupid stuff like drugs, booze or staying out all night partying (all of which the '86 Mets were famous for) to get the manager to bench him.

I like position player fatigue, though I agree that catchers should be hit by maybe three times as much of it as other positions. I agree that it should be inning-based rather than game-based, and that pinch hitting should count as a rest day, with DHing counting as maybe half a rest.

I also think that there should be an editable fatigue rating in the player profile, so some guys become Steve Garvey and others become Keith Hernandez. This rating would represent a player's willingness to play through pain or tiredness (or hangovers). A guy with a day-to-day who rolls under his fatigue rating on a D250 may not sit out, based on the manager's settings. The same setting could let some catchers catch 150 games while others are only good for 120.

By the way, in the modern (post-expansion) era with 162 games, a 'standard' season is 180 days in length. Since the three day All Star break figures into that, there are sixteen scheduled breaks, dividing the season into seventeen parts of unequal length. By advanced mathematics, that would seem to average 9 1/2 games per segment. Of course, the segments are shorter than that in April and longer in July and August.

Oh, and Lou Gehrig kept his streak alive by using the completely legal, but totally classless expedients of playing a half inning in the field and not coming to bat or batting in the top of the first and being pulled without going into the field on several (more than half a dozen) occasions. Maybe Gehrig had to be dying to get him out of the lineup, but he didn't always play while he was in it.

[LeiterFanatic]

Originally Posted by Curtis Cook

When a guy is mentally tired, he doesn't want to go out on the field, so he'll do stupid stuff like drugs, booze or staying out all night partying (all of which the '86 Mets were famous for) to get the manager to bench him.

I have read a lot about the '86 Mets but this is the most unique spin on their vomit-drenched reputation.

[LeiterFanatic]

Originally Posted by Curtis Cook

When a guy is mentally tired, he doesn't want to go out on the field, so he'll do stupid stuff like drugs, booze or staying out all night partying (all of which the '86 Mets were famous for) to get the manager to bench him.

I have read a lot about the '86 Mets but this is the most unique spin on their vomit-drenched reputation.

[Curtis]

Now, see? This is what Marlin fans have to look forward to in another decade or so. You've already got the alternating between first and last place part down pat, so next you have to concentrate on building team legends. THEN you'll really be Big League!