I just got my PC Gamer magazine, the September issue and it rates three baseball sims - Page 2

pstrickert · 07-19-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Honestly, I'm really not that concerned with what the other scores are, however outrageous that sounds. I just found Markus' reaction to his game's score to be interesting considering that 1.00 and 1.01 were complete wrecks.

What was Markus' reaction again? I don't recall exactly.

Zitofan75 · 07-20-2006, 01:28 AM

Who cares?

Who cares what a reviewer thinks? It's his opinion and he's entitled to it. But so what? Even if he supposedly "knows his stuff" that's irrelevant. What he and what all other reviewers may know (game reviewers, movie reviewers, or whatever), there's one thing ALL of them don't know and that's my opinion. They can tell me why they like or don't like it but they can't really tell me if I'll like it or not and I've seen too many reviews for all sorts of things that I don't ultimately agree with that I just can't care what he thinks; it's meaningless to how I choose to relate to the game.

Whether he likes it or hates it, it's all the same.

Still I wonder if this thread will go 14 or 20 pages of rant before being closed.

Marc Duffy · 07-20-2006, 01:34 AM

Personally, I find the score a little low but I'm not going to cry about it. It's not ideal but not the end of the world. We know 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 were not where we should have been and certainly I'd say that was a blip magnified because the game was a total rewrite.

The good news is that we've listed to all the problems and the majority are fixed for 1.0.2. This then means we have a decent platform for OOTPB2007 as well.

Cork55 · 07-20-2006, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMax58

I am assuming it was your thread that was deleted. I didn't see it or the article, but this same score & article started the "Thread to end all Threads" a few weeks back. A very tiresome thread.

I'm not sure the kind of uproar you're referring to, but if you're insinuating that people who enjoy one particular game disagreeing with a score, and dismissing it as nonesense is an uproar, then I don't imagine there is very much in this world we could ever agree on. On the other hand, you may be talking about your thread that, again I assume, was removed.

BTW...did you post the same article on the Puresim & Baseball Mogul forums? Just curious as to what you were intending to accomplish by posting it here.

I did not start any threads and only posted the actual review scores because there seemed to be some confusion about their existence. I offered up no opinions about any of the games in question.

-Cork55

cabot41 · 07-20-2006, 01:43 AM

I think the reviews are important only insofar as one is trying to decide which product to purchase. If you have all 3 than I don't see how the reviews matter much, just play the one that gives you the most enjoyment.

I myself do not have all three. I am old and so I only became aware of this wonderfull universe of text-based sports sims like a year ago. I started off on PureSim (the older one) and found the concept to be great but the execution to be buggy and annoying. After reading 5000 glowing things about the "Gold Standard" that OOTP was, I jumped to 6.5 (even though 2006 had been announced) and enjoyed many gloriously fun months on that game. I thought everything was so well done that I even pre-ordered 2006.

So now I am sitting here with 2006, and I think it is a great concept, but very buggy and annoying. Meanwhile people are saying great goodly things about PureSim2007. Grass is always greener? One step behind the curve? Massive industry level conpiracy to bilk as much cash as possible? Who knows. But I think that based on the superior strength of 6.5 alone, I think this team deserves today's patch before any real verdict can be rendered. There are things that need to be fixed and looking at the fix list, the majority of those things will be. IMO this should not have been released on May 31st as anything more than a super-beta test. But this is not the first time a product has been rushed to market by "the powers that be" espiecially when the demand is already in place. I know understand that 6.5 was the final realzation of a product that went through many iterations, whereas 2006 seems to be the first in a new line of iterations that might only reach full superiority by something like OOTP2008.

So, putting aside the frustration of "why this wasn't done for launch" issues, I'd like too would like to hear the thoughtfull comparisons of this post-patch product to PureSim and other genre options. I think from a business perspective any customer who enjoys either OOTP or PureSim is a more likely customer to purchase OOTP2007 next year ... just like back in the day anybody who bought an Atari or a Coleco was a safe bet to pick up the Nintendo Entertainment System.

Claymore · 07-20-2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

The other threads I believe were closed, simply because they turned into fanboy/critic bashing threads.

I agree that at least the first huge thread needed to be closed, (not sure about the others as they were gone before I could finish reading them) but deleting them seems a bit tacky....Is't closing them enough? I've seen a lot worse threads locked and fade into the vapor...

rwd59 · 07-20-2006, 02:01 AM

Allthebest came and went in a couple of days. His first post being about the PCGamer score that he said was not possible from the get go. Even said he had the new Mag and the score was wrong..it was 64. Probably JimG. Oh well, he's gone and I am through with it. As to the score. I don't pay any attention to any reviewers opinion. Not with movies or games. Some of the best movies I have seen were ripped by "Reviewers" and some of the worst we widely praised. I only care about my opinion in the long run as I am sure most of you do. Hope I can give the game higher marks when the demo is ready. Of course I'll keep the scores to myself

.

Marc Duffy · 07-20-2006, 02:14 AM

Allthebest had his closed as he was a troll with a familar IP address.

Le Grande Orange · 07-20-2006, 02:32 AM

Hmmm, I've thought that most knowledgeable gamers realize that the reviews in magazines generally aren't worth the paper they're printed on and that the best way to get the pulse of a certain game was to visit its message boards.

Either that, or find some trustworthy web site reviews.

cabot41 · 07-20-2006, 02:47 AM

The real funny thing is that as of today (if not already) the review becomes utterly obsolete. I've been playing computer games pretty much since they were invented and IMO, "Patches" are the single greatet thing about the internet.

One potentially positive thing from the review/funny uproar ... you wonder if SI might delay the releases of FM2007 or eventually OOTP07 to make sure that every thing is ready to go from the jump? This company seems to be working as hard as quickly as they can, it just seems like they needed more time to get everything just so for 2006. Maybe getting slammed (fairly or no) in a popular magazine might give the developers and testers that extra time to incubate their baby.

Syd Thrift · 07-20-2006, 04:10 AM

Marc mentioned this elsewhere, but it really wasn't possible to delay the game any longer. It's too bad that they didn't call the May 31 roll-out a "public beta"; Puresim appears to have gotten away with that, why not OOTP?

Marc Duffy · 07-20-2006, 05:04 AM

Ah, the benefit of hindsight ...

I'll hold my hands up and say again that the release of the game should really have been put back, but it gets to a situation where I simply had to get Markus to release as it had been delayed from where we originally wanted to be and in the end I had to make a call and put in a deadline for the guys to work to.

Rightly or wrongly, in many ways this I believe looking back has been probably a good thing in that it was a shot in the arm for everyone in terms of what was wrong and most importantly what needed to be fixed. I think with 1.0.2 we've reached a very high level and we now need to keep raising this from here on in. The bad thing of course is that in some ways it created a lot of negativity in the early days. I'm confident though in what we've done and I'm even more confident that those playing it will be impressed and be willing to recommend to others.

Lessons have been learned by everyone (perhaps me more than most) and I believe we are all coming out of this better and stronger in so many ways.

It was the very first time that Sports Interactive attempted to release a product a) on our own and b) digital download only and I certainly think this is a model we'll use in the future and perhaps more importantly we'll improve on.

dougaiton · 07-20-2006, 05:06 AM

Oh for the days of Amiga Power ... they would really have knocked the heck out of Baseball Mogul, hot dogs and all.

Not that they were ever that kind about CM, admittedly, but they liked it better than Kick Off 2.

battists · 07-20-2006, 09:11 AM

Kudos to Marc for that post. I think there's lessons to be learned for everyone here.

Remember as well that OOTPB 2007 has a huge advantage over OOTPB 2006. In days leading up to OOTPB 2006's release, the game just flat-out wasn't complete. 2007 will be building on that now-completed framework. So, if they run out of time for a new feature in Spring of 2007, the game will still work without it. That's a sweeping generalization, but I'm basically saying they did the hard part this year. Next year Markus gets to really tighten up the ship and add cool new features, without ripping up the whole framework.

I think this puts them in a much stronger position from a product stability standpoint, because they can (hopefully) begin the testing/finalizing cycle much earlier, and have greater confidence in a completion date as well.

I personally hope that OOTPB 2007 will be an Opening Day release next year, and I suspect they're in a good position to do so.

Zitofan75 · 07-20-2006, 09:31 AM

Excellent post Marc, I rarely see such candor on any game board and I appreciate that. It's that sort of openness on here that gives me confidence in the direction the game will take.

HolyCow98 · 07-20-2006, 09:40 AM

For a game I already own I could really care less what a review says. Do I play it...yes...do I find it entertaining...yes...can it be improved on...yes...do I think it will be yes....It's an ambitious (spelling?) product that has some rough and missing edges that I think they will continue to smooth out and add on in patches and future versions. You can choose to buy future versions or not. You can choose to play the version you have or not. Plenty of other things to do in life. I think if you choose to stay interested in OOTP...keep the bashing to being somewhat constructive. If someone hates something about it...by all means vent and bash away...but do it in a way that developers can see why and possibly how to approve upon.

The only people who should really care IMO...are SI and Markus...as prospective new buyers are influenced by such a low score of their product.

cabot41 · 07-20-2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zitofan75

Excellent post Marc, I rarely see such candor on any game board and I appreciate that. It's that sort of openness on here that gives me confidence in the direction the game will take.

Absolutely agree. Posts like that make me feel like ootp is more like a public/priavate partnership (you know, like MLB should be) instead of just another competitor for my entertainment dollar (like MLB is).

To use another MLB analogy, launch was kind of like a young team full of talent that plays more excitingly than their record would suggest even though its a rebuilding year from past greatness (Marlins). Today's patch will hopefully get us to the legatimate contender stage (Last year's Indians, this year's Tigers). And if Battists' logic holds, 2007 will be the championship year where it all organically comes toogether.

Thanks taking the time for that thoughtfull response Marc.

JH99 · 07-20-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabot41

And if Battists' logic holds, 2007 will be the championship year where it all organically comes toogether.

Looking forward to it. In the meantime it's good to knoew there are two other good games out there. I know there are a lot of OOTP fans on here but you can't deny that having 3 sims to choose from is a GOOD thing. We all agree that OOTP is great (or at least has the potential to be great) but the others are also some darn good efforts. Nice to have when Take2 doesn't care for statistical realism.

darkenigma510 · 07-20-2006, 10:23 AM

It's great to see such open candor. Most companies would run and hide if they had a rough launch (think MLB 06 in the previous year with the freezes).

I think this game has mind-blowing potential and am looking forward to future iterations.

deadringer · 07-20-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Ah, the benefit of hindsight ...

I'll hold my hands up and say again that the release of the game should really have been put back, but it gets to a situation where I simply had to get Markus to release as it had been delayed from where we originally wanted to be and in the end I had to make a call and put in a deadline for the guys to work to.

Rightly or wrongly, in many ways this I believe looking back has been probably a good thing in that it was a shot in the arm for everyone in terms of what was wrong and most importantly what needed to be fixed. I think with 1.0.2 we've reached a very high level and we now need to keep raising this from here on in. The bad thing of course is that in some ways it created a lot of negativity in the early days. I'm confident though in what we've done and I'm even more confident that those playing it will be impressed and be willing to recommend to others.

Lessons have been learned by everyone (perhaps me more than most) and I believe we are all coming out of this better and stronger in so many ways.

It was the very first time that Sports Interactive attempted to release a product a) on our own and b) digital download only and I certainly think this is a model we'll use in the future and perhaps more importantly we'll improve on.

My Mom used to tell me all the time that things can be forgiven if you're honest about the mistakes you make.

I think this kind of pure honesty is very important Marc and I appreciate it greatly. When this version was released I was absolutely dumbfounded at the state it was in upon release. The more I heard about the problems and the the bugs the more frustrated I got. My loyalty to OOTP was far beyond shaken.

When I bought the game and downloaded it I was under the impression that it was done. I knew it was a rewrite and that there would be bugs but I thought that for the most part it was ready. When I saw the state it was in I was terrified that if that was done I'd hate to see unfinished. Markus has a history of releasing the new versions and then doing some squashed and improvements along the way but nothing like this.

Then I finally started to realize just how unfinished this version was upon release I started to see that we had less to fear about the final condition of the game.

As you look at the game's state on the release day there's a huge difference between it being "tested and ready" and being rushed out rather than pushing the date. I think a lot of people would have been much more forgiving and less negative had they known that. You live and you learn.

07-20-2006, 01:28 AM	#22
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	Who cares? Who cares what a reviewer thinks? It's his opinion and he's entitled to it. But so what? Even if he supposedly "knows his stuff" that's irrelevant. What he and what all other reviewers may know (game reviewers, movie reviewers, or whatever), there's one thing ALL of them don't know and that's my opinion. They can tell me why they like or don't like it but they can't really tell me if I'll like it or not and I've seen too many reviews for all sorts of things that I don't ultimately agree with that I just can't care what he thinks; it's meaningless to how I choose to relate to the game. Whether he likes it or hates it, it's all the same. Still I wonder if this thread will go 14 or 20 pages of rant before being closed. Last edited by Zitofan75; 07-20-2006 at 01:29 AM.

07-20-2006, 02:47 AM	#30
cabot41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 78	The real funny thing is that as of today (if not already) the review becomes utterly obsolete. I've been playing computer games pretty much since they were invented and IMO, "Patches" are the single greatet thing about the internet. One potentially positive thing from the review/funny uproar ... you wonder if SI might delay the releases of FM2007 or eventually OOTP07 to make sure that every thing is ready to go from the jump? This company seems to be working as hard as quickly as they can, it just seems like they needed more time to get everything just so for 2006. Maybe getting slammed (fairly or no) in a popular magazine might give the developers and testers that extra time to incubate their baby. Last edited by cabot41; 07-20-2006 at 03:12 AM.

07-20-2006, 05:04 AM	#32
Marc Duffy SI Marketing Wizard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Old Street, London Posts: 4,741	Ah, the benefit of hindsight ... I'll hold my hands up and say again that the release of the game should really have been put back, but it gets to a situation where I simply had to get Markus to release as it had been delayed from where we originally wanted to be and in the end I had to make a call and put in a deadline for the guys to work to. Rightly or wrongly, in many ways this I believe looking back has been probably a good thing in that it was a shot in the arm for everyone in terms of what was wrong and most importantly what needed to be fixed. I think with 1.0.2 we've reached a very high level and we now need to keep raising this from here on in. The bad thing of course is that in some ways it created a lot of negativity in the early days. I'm confident though in what we've done and I'm even more confident that those playing it will be impressed and be willing to recommend to others. Lessons have been learned by everyone (perhaps me more than most) and I believe we are all coming out of this better and stronger in so many ways. It was the very first time that Sports Interactive attempted to release a product a) on our own and b) digital download only and I certainly think this is a model we'll use in the future and perhaps more importantly we'll improve on. Last edited by Marc Duffy; 07-20-2006 at 05:06 AM.

07-20-2006, 05:06 AM	#33
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Oh for the days of Amiga Power ... they would really have knocked the heck out of Baseball Mogul, hot dogs and all. Not that they were ever that kind about CM, admittedly, but they liked it better than Kick Off 2. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

07-20-2006, 09:40 AM	#36
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	For a game I already own I could really care less what a review says. Do I play it...yes...do I find it entertaining...yes...can it be improved on...yes...do I think it will be yes....It's an ambitious (spelling?) product that has some rough and missing edges that I think they will continue to smooth out and add on in patches and future versions. You can choose to buy future versions or not. You can choose to play the version you have or not. Plenty of other things to do in life. I think if you choose to stay interested in OOTP...keep the bashing to being somewhat constructive. If someone hates something about it...by all means vent and bash away...but do it in a way that developers can see why and possibly how to approve upon. The only people who should really care IMO...are SI and Markus...as prospective new buyers are influenced by such a low score of their product. __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

07-20-2006, 01:34 AM	#23
Marc Duffy SI Marketing Wizard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Old Street, London Posts: 4,741	Personally, I find the score a little low but I'm not going to cry about it. It's not ideal but not the end of the world. We know 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 were not where we should have been and certainly I'd say that was a blip magnified because the game was a total rewrite. The good news is that we've listed to all the problems and the majority are fixed for 1.0.2. This then means we have a decent platform for OOTPB2007 as well.

07-20-2006, 01:43 AM	#25
cabot41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 78	I think the reviews are important only insofar as one is trying to decide which product to purchase. If you have all 3 than I don't see how the reviews matter much, just play the one that gives you the most enjoyment. I myself do not have all three. I am old and so I only became aware of this wonderfull universe of text-based sports sims like a year ago. I started off on PureSim (the older one) and found the concept to be great but the execution to be buggy and annoying. After reading 5000 glowing things about the "Gold Standard" that OOTP was, I jumped to 6.5 (even though 2006 had been announced) and enjoyed many gloriously fun months on that game. I thought everything was so well done that I even pre-ordered 2006. So now I am sitting here with 2006, and I think it is a great concept, but very buggy and annoying. Meanwhile people are saying great goodly things about PureSim2007. Grass is always greener? One step behind the curve? Massive industry level conpiracy to bilk as much cash as possible? Who knows. But I think that based on the superior strength of 6.5 alone, I think this team deserves today's patch before any real verdict can be rendered. There are things that need to be fixed and looking at the fix list, the majority of those things will be. IMO this should not have been released on May 31st as anything more than a super-beta test. But this is not the first time a product has been rushed to market by "the powers that be" espiecially when the demand is already in place. I know understand that 6.5 was the final realzation of a product that went through many iterations, whereas 2006 seems to be the first in a new line of iterations that might only reach full superiority by something like OOTP2008. So, putting aside the frustration of "why this wasn't done for launch" issues, I'd like too would like to hear the thoughtfull comparisons of this post-patch product to PureSim and other genre options. I think from a business perspective any customer who enjoys either OOTP or PureSim is a more likely customer to purchase OOTP2007 next year ... just like back in the day anybody who bought an Atari or a Coleco was a safe bet to pick up the Nintendo Entertainment System.

07-20-2006, 02:01 AM	#27
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 990	Allthebest came and went in a couple of days. His first post being about the PCGamer score that he said was not possible from the get go. Even said he had the new Mag and the score was wrong..it was 64. Probably JimG. Oh well, he's gone and I am through with it. As to the score. I don't pay any attention to any reviewers opinion. Not with movies or games. Some of the best movies I have seen were ripped by "Reviewers" and some of the worst we widely praised. I only care about my opinion in the long run as I am sure most of you do. Hope I can give the game higher marks when the demo is ready. Of course I'll keep the scores to myself .

07-20-2006, 02:14 AM	#28
Marc Duffy SI Marketing Wizard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Old Street, London Posts: 4,741	Allthebest had his closed as he was a troll with a familar IP address.

07-20-2006, 02:32 AM	#29
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	Hmmm, I've thought that most knowledgeable gamers realize that the reviews in magazines generally aren't worth the paper they're printed on and that the best way to get the pulse of a certain game was to visit its message boards. Either that, or find some trustworthy web site reviews.

07-20-2006, 09:11 AM	#34
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Kudos to Marc for that post. I think there's lessons to be learned for everyone here. Remember as well that OOTPB 2007 has a huge advantage over OOTPB 2006. In days leading up to OOTPB 2006's release, the game just flat-out wasn't complete. 2007 will be building on that now-completed framework. So, if they run out of time for a new feature in Spring of 2007, the game will still work without it. That's a sweeping generalization, but I'm basically saying they did the hard part this year. Next year Markus gets to really tighten up the ship and add cool new features, without ripping up the whole framework. I think this puts them in a much stronger position from a product stability standpoint, because they can (hopefully) begin the testing/finalizing cycle much earlier, and have greater confidence in a completion date as well. I personally hope that OOTPB 2007 will be an Opening Day release next year, and I suspect they're in a good position to do so.

07-20-2006, 09:31 AM	#35
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	Excellent post Marc, I rarely see such candor on any game board and I appreciate that. It's that sort of openness on here that gives me confidence in the direction the game will take.

07-20-2006, 10:23 AM	#39
darkenigma510 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Wild West Posts: 1,353	It's great to see such open candor. Most companies would run and hide if they had a rough launch (think MLB 06 in the previous year with the freezes). I think this game has mind-blowing potential and am looking forward to future iterations.