Suggestion: prestige ratings for leagues (so int'l talent gravitates to best lg.)

DAL 9000 · 06-08-2006, 06:30 PM

I've noticed that independent leagues, even when they offer markedly lower salaries than MLB, often have their best players sign extensions that don't even come close to what they'd make in a league with much more lucrative financials.

For instance, in my current universe, I adjusted the salary structure in the Mexican league so that even superstars made less than the major league minimum, and the average player made under $100K a year.

I thought that this would ensure a steady flow of talent from the Mexican league to the major leagues, but instead I found that major-league-quality players (some of them in their early-to-mid-20s) would sign extensions with their Mexican league team for $70,000 or $80,000 a year, when they could've made tens of millions of dollars by going to free agency. I'm not sure how you'd go about fixing this (and it /is/ a problem, and it /does/ need fixing-- players should, for the most part, be trying to maximize their earnings); I suspect that to really solve it, you'd have to re-write a lot of the extension/free-agency code.

But maybe there's a workaround. Maybe in the league setup screen, you can have an option to give each league a prestige rating, and make it so that players naturally want to play in a league with high prestige (and turn down any extension offers if there's a higher-prestige league in which their current rating would be 50 or better: "I want to test the market!").

By default every league could have its prestige set at 100 (or whatever the highest value is), so players who like the game as is could just leave it at the default value and have nothing whatsoever be affected, while players who'd like to set up a sort of hierarchy of independent/international leagues could have fun with it.

For example, if you set the prestige structure like this:

MLB 100
JPB 90
MEX 75
TAI 40
KOR 40

... an up-and-comer from a low-prestige league would opt for free agency pretty much every time, because he wants to test himself against better competition and, of course, get filthy rich. And by contrast, a washed-up major leaguer who knows he isn't good enough to hack it in the big leagues anymore might go to Japan, where he can still be a good player-- maybe even a star.

Am I making any sense here? Is this a feature anyone else wants, or is it just me?

andymac · 06-08-2006, 06:40 PM

I think the logic needs to be put under the hood instead of a "prestige" rating. The game already (according to Markus) gives each league a "quality" rating that gets compiled every day. Right now, it seems players only use that logic when they are free agents. It needs to start using that logic when negotiating extensions as well. Basically, if that player thinks he is good enough to play in a higher league he shouldn't even be considering signing extensions (especially if that higher league has a lot more money floating around).

DAL 9000 · 06-08-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I think the logic needs to be put under the hood instead of a "prestige" rating. The game already (according to Markus) gives each league a "quality" rating that gets compiled every day. Right now, it seems players only use that logic when they are free agents. It needs to start using that logic when negotiating extensions as well. Basically, if that player thinks he is good enough to play in a higher league he shouldn't even be considering signing extensions (especially if that higher league has a lot more money floating around).

That would solve the problem handily, yes. And it sounds like a lot less work than my suggestion. It even sounds-- knock on wood-- like something that could be included in the next patch.

Psst, Markus. Put it in the patch, or else I'll fail to rescue this here duckling, which is in for a surprise at the hands of some blue-suited perverts:

Questdog · 06-08-2006, 08:39 PM

I've found that if you make expected salaries for stars in inferior leagues equal that of the majors, then you will find that the independent clubs will not be able to sign most of the major league caliber players in their league.

Dogzilla · 06-08-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

I've found that if you make expected salaries for stars in inferior leagues equal that of the majors, then you will find that the independent clubs will not be able to sign most of the major league caliber players in their league.

What do mean by "inferior" league? Lower player creation modifiers, lower equivencies, lower financials/revenue, all three?

Questdog · 06-08-2006, 09:34 PM

I mean any league that is independent of the major leagues, but not intended by its creator to be the major's competitive equal. In DAL 9000's post above, his Mexican league would be considered an inferior league.
By making the salary expectations of players in his Mexican league equal that of players in the majors, the Mexican league teams (supposing their financial resources are less than the major league teams), would not be able to afford to keep most players who could be major league stars.

DAL 9000 · 06-08-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I mean any league that is independent of the major leagues, but not intended by its creator to be the major's competitive equal. In DAL 9000's post above, his Mexican league would be considered an inferior league.
By making the salary expectations of players in his Mexican league equal that of players in the majors, the Mexican league teams (supposing their financial resources are less than the major league teams), would not be able to afford to keep most players who could be major league stars.

That's an interesting idea-- and you don't even have to make it equal to ML finances; you can just structure the finances so that every team will be strapped for cash because payroll will be equal to or greater than their revenue.

I'm too lazy to start another universe to test it, though, which is why I'd rather whine 'til Markus fixes it.

Questdog · 06-08-2006, 10:27 PM

I believe that data is editable after creation...

darkcloud4579 · 06-08-2006, 10:28 PM

So you're saying essentially, that in each league, the salaries should be equal to the high major league ones, because it won't result in a player who is really good in an inferior league being able to remain there, because they won't have the money?

Hmm..Lemme test this out. I've been curious. Good stuff.

Questdog · 06-08-2006, 10:33 PM

Yes, and I'd like to add that I don't see anything that need's fixing in this area.

DAL 9000 · 06-08-2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Yes, and I'd like to add that I don't see anything that need's fixing in this area.

Eh, I do. Like andymac said, if the game has a quality rating already, it should be incorporated into extension decisions, not just free-agency decisions. I don't really see any downside to doing that.

Questdog · 06-08-2006, 10:41 PM

What should drive the players decision to remain in a league or not, is not the quality of the play, but the amount of cash he is offered.

andymac · 06-09-2006, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

What should drive the players decision to remain in a league or not, is not the quality of the play, but the amount of cash he is offered.

The quality of play should factor in as well. If you have two leagues that offer similar amounts of money...they player should want to play in the better league most of the time (all things like close to home, etc. being equal). I agree that the cash is likely no. 1 though, especially if there is a major difference. The problem is, when negotiating extensions, the player only see's the offer in the context of the league he is in instead of the entire univers. Adjusting the salaries so that leagues with less money still have superstars who expect a ton of cash is an interesting idea, but I am worried it would also skew the expectations of the players that belong in that league and not in the "better" ones as well causing some of those mediocre players to refuse extension and then sit around without a team when noone from the better leagues want them.

Questdog · 06-09-2006, 12:10 AM

I have not seen that as being an issue in the simming I've done so far.

darkcloud4579 · 06-09-2006, 01:46 AM

I went through and checked this out. So long as the "top" leagues have a salary cap or have it setup so that teams aren't making big budget dollars, this ought not be cropping up.

I don't think it works perfectly, but I screwed up my league when I set all sorts of super-high salaries for minor leagues, so..I think the first thing folks ought to do, is ensure that your minor league salaries aren't comparable to major leagues or else, those players will surely sign in those leagues.

andymac · 06-09-2006, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

I went through and checked this out. So long as the "top" leagues have a salary cap or have it setup so that teams aren't making big budget dollars, this ought not be cropping up.

I don't think it works perfectly, but I screwed up my league when I set all sorts of super-high salaries for minor leagues, so..I think the first thing folks ought to do, is ensure that your minor league salaries aren't comparable to major leagues or else, those players will surely sign in those leagues.

Define "checked this out", because I have seen numerous players sign extensions with lower league clubs when they should have gone after the big money in a higher league. If they get to free agency, they seem to act correctly and go to the higher league, but a large enough amount of them sign extensions to make me think this is a problem.

Questdog · 06-09-2006, 11:13 AM

Why is this so difficult to understand? Whatever you set the salary expectations to in a league, you're telling players and owners what the market is. They have no way of knowing there is another league out there where expectations are different. So, if you make the salary expectations the same for all leagues, you will see the players gravitate towards the leagues that can afford them.

andymac · 06-09-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Why is this so difficult to understand? Whatever you set the salary expectations to in a league, you're telling players and owners what the market is. They have no way of knowing there is another league out there where expectations are different. So, if you make the salary expectations the same for all leagues, you will see the players gravitate towards the leagues that can afford them.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

Adjusting the expected salaries so that leagues with less money still have superstars who expect a ton of cash is an interesting idea, but I am worried it would also skew the expectations of the players that belong in that league and not in the "better" ones as well causing some of those mediocre players to refuse extension and then sit around without a team when noone from the better leagues want them.

Dogzilla · 06-09-2006, 03:37 PM

The AI should look at the entire baseball universe when a player decides what he is worth, and have the player act accordingly. If a player is making $200,000 in one league and players of similar talent are making $2 million in another, he should demand a BIG raise or become a free agent. Lower financials only works is players act rationally; if they don't, it is something that should be fixed.

Questdog · 06-09-2006, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by andymac
Adjusting the expected salaries so that leagues with less money still have superstars who expect a ton of cash is an interesting idea, but I am worried it would also skew the expectations of the players that belong in that league and not in the "better" ones as well causing some of those mediocre players to refuse extension and then sit around without a team when noone from the better leagues want them.

You don't want this fixed. As it is right now, you can set financials so that you have players moving to the league approriate for their talents. Or if you'd prefer, you can have players stay put in the measley little league they're already stuck in. Andymac's fear, I believe, is not something to be afraid of. It depends on what the disparity of incomes is between the leagues. As long as the MLE's and income figures are in tune with one another, you won't see players sitting around. By that, I mean, if you make one league that is suppose to be roughly 75% the talent equal of the major league (not MLE's=.750), but only rakes in 1/10th of the income, then you will most likely have a gut of players unable to find jobs appropriate to their skill level.

06-08-2006, 06:30 PM	#1
DAL 9000 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 294	Suggestion: prestige ratings for leagues (so int'l talent gravitates to best lg.) I've noticed that independent leagues, even when they offer markedly lower salaries than MLB, often have their best players sign extensions that don't even come close to what they'd make in a league with much more lucrative financials. For instance, in my current universe, I adjusted the salary structure in the Mexican league so that even superstars made less than the major league minimum, and the average player made under $100K a year. I thought that this would ensure a steady flow of talent from the Mexican league to the major leagues, but instead I found that major-league-quality players (some of them in their early-to-mid-20s) would sign extensions with their Mexican league team for $70,000 or $80,000 a year, when they could've made tens of millions of dollars by going to free agency. I'm not sure how you'd go about fixing this (and it /is/ a problem, and it /does/ need fixing-- players should, for the most part, be trying to maximize their earnings); I suspect that to really solve it, you'd have to re-write a lot of the extension/free-agency code. But maybe there's a workaround. Maybe in the league setup screen, you can have an option to give each league a prestige rating, and make it so that players naturally want to play in a league with high prestige (and turn down any extension offers if there's a higher-prestige league in which their current rating would be 50 or better: "I want to test the market!"). By default every league could have its prestige set at 100 (or whatever the highest value is), so players who like the game as is could just leave it at the default value and have nothing whatsoever be affected, while players who'd like to set up a sort of hierarchy of independent/international leagues could have fun with it. For example, if you set the prestige structure like this: MLB 100 JPB 90 MEX 75 TAI 40 KOR 40 ... an up-and-comer from a low-prestige league would opt for free agency pretty much every time, because he wants to test himself against better competition and, of course, get filthy rich. And by contrast, a washed-up major leaguer who knows he isn't good enough to hack it in the big leagues anymore might go to Japan, where he can still be a good player-- maybe even a star. Am I making any sense here? Is this a feature anyone else wants, or is it just me? __________________ Llama farmers of Wisconsin! "Welcome, and enjoy our llamas." Last edited by DAL 9000; 06-08-2006 at 10:40 PM.

06-08-2006, 06:40 PM	#2
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	I think the logic needs to be put under the hood instead of a "prestige" rating. The game already (according to Markus) gives each league a "quality" rating that gets compiled every day. Right now, it seems players only use that logic when they are free agents. It needs to start using that logic when negotiating extensions as well. Basically, if that player thinks he is good enough to play in a higher league he shouldn't even be considering signing extensions (especially if that higher league has a lot more money floating around). __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac

06-08-2006, 09:34 PM	#6
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	I mean any league that is independent of the major leagues, but not intended by its creator to be the major's competitive equal. In DAL 9000's post above, his Mexican league would be considered an inferior league. By making the salary expectations of players in his Mexican league equal that of players in the majors, the Mexican league teams (supposing their financial resources are less than the major league teams), would not be able to afford to keep most players who could be major league stars. Last edited by Questdog; 06-08-2006 at 09:46 PM.

06-08-2006, 10:28 PM	#9
darkcloud4579 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 8,715	So you're saying essentially, that in each league, the salaries should be equal to the high major league ones, because it won't result in a player who is really good in an inferior league being able to remain there, because they won't have the money? Hmm..Lemme test this out. I've been curious. Good stuff. __________________ ------ My Mods OOTP Advanced Stats & DFS Suite Managerial Strategy Pack Competitive Balance Tax Calculator Major League Women's Baseball (OOTP24) quickstart Indian Premier League \| 300+ years of baseball quickstart \| Expatriate League quickstart \| Off-Field Injuries Update \| Women's Name File for OOTP \| ---- Dynasty classics: Centurion comes to OOTP5 \| DC Moneyball Dynasty (2004)

06-09-2006, 01:46 AM	#15
darkcloud4579 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 8,715	I went through and checked this out. So long as the "top" leagues have a salary cap or have it setup so that teams aren't making big budget dollars, this ought not be cropping up. I don't think it works perfectly, but I screwed up my league when I set all sorts of super-high salaries for minor leagues, so..I think the first thing folks ought to do, is ensure that your minor league salaries aren't comparable to major leagues or else, those players will surely sign in those leagues. __________________ ------ My Mods OOTP Advanced Stats & DFS Suite Managerial Strategy Pack Competitive Balance Tax Calculator Major League Women's Baseball (OOTP24) quickstart Indian Premier League \| 300+ years of baseball quickstart \| Expatriate League quickstart \| Off-Field Injuries Update \| Women's Name File for OOTP \| ---- Dynasty classics: Centurion comes to OOTP5 \| DC Moneyball Dynasty (2004)

06-08-2006, 08:39 PM	#4
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	I've found that if you make expected salaries for stars in inferior leagues equal that of the majors, then you will find that the independent clubs will not be able to sign most of the major league caliber players in their league.

06-08-2006, 10:27 PM	#8
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	I believe that data is editable after creation...

06-08-2006, 10:33 PM	#10
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	Yes, and I'd like to add that I don't see anything that need's fixing in this area.

06-08-2006, 10:41 PM	#12
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	What should drive the players decision to remain in a league or not, is not the quality of the play, but the amount of cash he is offered.

06-09-2006, 12:10 AM	#14
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	I have not seen that as being an issue in the simming I've done so far.

06-09-2006, 11:13 AM	#17
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	Why is this so difficult to understand? Whatever you set the salary expectations to in a league, you're telling players and owners what the market is. They have no way of knowing there is another league out there where expectations are different. So, if you make the salary expectations the same for all leagues, you will see the players gravitate towards the leagues that can afford them.

06-09-2006, 03:37 PM	#19
Dogzilla Major Leagues Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado USA Posts: 421	The AI should look at the entire baseball universe when a player decides what he is worth, and have the player act accordingly. If a player is making $200,000 in one league and players of similar talent are making $2 million in another, he should demand a BIG raise or become a free agent. Lower financials only works is players act rationally; if they don't, it is something that should be fixed.

06-09-2006, 05:30 PM	#20
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	Originally Posted by andymac Adjusting the expected salaries so that leagues with less money still have superstars who expect a ton of cash is an interesting idea, but I am worried it would also skew the expectations of the players that belong in that league and not in the "better" ones as well causing some of those mediocre players to refuse extension and then sit around without a team when noone from the better leagues want them. You don't want this fixed. As it is right now, you can set financials so that you have players moving to the league approriate for their talents. Or if you'd prefer, you can have players stay put in the measley little league they're already stuck in. Andymac's fear, I believe, is not something to be afraid of. It depends on what the disparity of incomes is between the leagues. As long as the MLE's and income figures are in tune with one another, you won't see players sitting around. By that, I mean, if you make one league that is suppose to be roughly 75% the talent equal of the major league (not MLE's=.750), but only rakes in 1/10th of the income, then you will most likely have a gut of players unable to find jobs appropriate to their skill level. Last edited by Questdog; 06-09-2006 at 06:58 PM.