Bobby Cox gets 1800th win

[twins15]

I was just trying to be funny. As you can tell, I am not very funny.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by Red Blow
Range factor, for example, is sometimes nothing more than being in the right place at the right time.

Bill James does not use range factor to determine the defensive value of a player.

Jason

[Cooleyvol]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei



Do you realize what you just wrote? You just wrote that facts are irrelevant to your thoughts and opinions. If you aren't kidding with that statement, you should be.

thoughts? You added that.

I meant that nothing you or James says will change my opinion. That's why its an opinion.

[Malleus Dei]

Short of sitting some of you down in a classroom and teaching you the difference between facts, analysis, supported opinions, informed opinions, and uninformed opinions, there is little to be done or said here. You can make a case against Cox as the best current manager - it would be weak and easily refuted - but no one has bothered to make one. All that we are getting are things like "I disagree, and no facts will ever convince me of anything" with no supporting argument or data, or "I like the Mariners manager" with no supporting argument or data. As they used to say, "Where's the beef?" What's the point of posting such things if you can't make an argument in support of it? You might as well post "I like milkshakes" in Off Topic.

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by Cooleyvol


thoughts? You added that.

I meant that nothing you or James says will change my opinion. That's why its an opinion.

Mark, it seems to me (and please correct me if Im wrong) that you're letting Malleus' attitude (which is definitely aggravating at times)detract from the facts in the case. If you have an opinion and the facts show it to be wrong, why wouldn't you change your opinion ? I don't really follow.

[spleen1015]

Hey Mark, did you know if you start a fictional league in 1914 and you don't use MD's names files, you're wrong? Imagine that. I guess I'm wrong too when I say that Cox is not the best manager currently.

Have you seen how my online teams perform? I am truly the best manager currently.

[Kezzek]

Um, kids, from what I'm seeing here very few of you have any better of an "attitude" than MD.

Cheap shots are cheap shots. Grow up a little bit, please. It would be nice if we could have a thread around here that doesn't contain childish slams and grudges.

----------

On-Topic: Cox is a great manager. Best of all-time? Nah. But damn fine one nonetheless. BTW, he hasn't always been a "cool headed" manager. The guy is among the leaders in getting tossed from the game!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Kezzek
Um, kids, from what I'm seeing here very few of you have any better of an "attitude" than MD.

Well, I'm not the one posting the slams and carrying old grudges around. (Neither is Aadik, whom I admit to never having thought much of in the past, but who has been so logical and perceptive in this thread that he has changed my mind about him.)

Originally posted by Kezzek
Cheap shots are cheap shots. Grow up a little bit, please. It would be nice if we could have a thread around here that doesn't contain childish slams and grudges.

That may be impossible given that the board is so populated with childish grudge-bearers. Note all the comments (and all the insults) in this thread that have nothing to do with the issue under discussion or this thread, but instead refer to things that happened elsewhere and in the past.

I don't believe that there is any real opposition here, which is why this thread has yet to see an actual opposing argument. All the opposition here appears to be simply grudge-based.

And that, Kezzek, is pathetic.

[spleen1015]

Here's some numbers for you.

Joe Torre is the best manager in the game today. Do I need to explain why? I don't know. 4 World Series Championships in the last 6 years? Oh wait. The post season doesn't matter does it.

1996 - 2002
Joe Torre has 690 wins under his belt to go along with his 4 rings.

Bobby Cox has 686 wins under his belt to go with his 0 rings. We can count the one in 1995 if you want.

Is Bobby Cox a good manager? Yes, the guy can win in the regular season.

[Malleus Dei]

Sorry. Torre started managing a year before Cox did and has (1) many fewer wins, (2) a lower winning percentage, (3) half as many divisional titles, and (4) does not consistently exceed expected wins as Cox does (see James). Torre is indeed one of the better managers in the game today, but not the best.

[spleen1015]

Yes, Torre did start in '77 and Cox in '78, but Cox has managed more games.

Give Torre a few more years and he'll have a better winning percentage.

FWIW, Torre managed the Braves better than Cox did in the early '80s.

I don't think either of them exceed expectations. I think they both meet them year after year. Those same goof balls who said the Braves won't do as well, had the Rams running away with the Super Bowl. Can't give those guys much credit.

[JAttractive]

Why even try to "prove" someone is the best? I don't care how many statistics/opinions you have you can never prove a statement like that. You could possibly crown someone the most "successful" according to some specific definition but best is such a subjective term.

It doesn't matter if Bill James and every other baseball "expert" in the world agrees Cox is the "best", it still does not make it fact. The only fact, if this were true then, would be that "every baseball expert alive today agrees that Cox is the best". That is NOT the same though as saying he IS the best though.

This would be the same as saying oranges are the best fruit. Do you see how absurd such a statement is?

I am not saying it is not fun to debate the abilities of a manager (though this thread does not seem like one of those) but anyone here who supports the notion that Cox is the "best" is fooling themselves if they think they have "proof". That would be simply impossible. So you see those who disagree don't need statistics or anything of that nature because no matter how much you throw at them you can never prove it, therefore they are still correct in saying he is not the best. This is something along the lines of being innocent until proven guilty. Unless you can prove your case their is no need for the otherside to counter it.

I don't want to sound like I am taking sides but Cooleyvol really doesn't need to offer any facts/arguements.

[Malleus Dei]

You are taking sides, and he did need to.

[JAttractive]

Hmm I don't think I am taking sides I am simply arguing the fact that such statements (about who is best) can never be proven. It doesn't matter which side is trying to prove it or what information they have.

Are you going to tell me you can prove who the best player is? Or what the best city in the world to live in is? Or who the most beautiful person is? These are all similar statements to what you are saying and I think even you would agree you could never prove any reply.

Since none of these things can ever be proven he is "innocent" in his statement. Since you can not prove him "guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt" why does he need to present a case?

If I said hockey is the best sport and gave a whole whack of arguements and statistics could I still ever prove such a statement? No.

So simply by disagreeing with me would you then not be correct?

The answer is yes and that is why Cooleyvol does not need to backup his statement, sorry.

[toanstrom]

First I guess i need to apologize for trying to stay on topic but this statement is just silly,

Originally posted by spleen1015
Torre managed the Braves better than Cox did in the early '80s.

Cox took over the Braves at a period when they had no talent at all, Torre when Dale Murphy was still the best player in the league, Bob Horner when he was worth having around a solid pitching from guys like Doyle Alexander so to compare their performances in the 80's is ridiculous. That would be close, all though not quite as bad as saying that "Torre didnt win with the Cardinals while Cox was winning pennants." The Braves teams that Torre and Cox were mananging were that different.

[JAttractive]

The reason I relate this to the court system is because it reminds me of a mock trial I was once part of in school. I forget the exact details now but I was the defense lawyer. After hearing tons and tons of information and arguements from the prosecution it was my turn to step up and present my case. Realizing they had said nothing that "proved" my client was guilty I simply said as much and sat down.

The mock jury decided to find my client guilty and that is where my teacher stepped up. He asked why they found him guilty and they said it was because I hadn't "proven" my case, that the other team had a better arguement. That is when he decided to override their decision and sided with me because of course it is "innocent until proven guilty" and not the other way around.

So you may have a very strong arguement Malleus, hell I probably agree with you, but you still haven't proven anything so Cooleyvol is still correct ("innocent"). He doesn't have to EVER say anything either because no matter how much you present you can never prove something like that. You may very well be correct but the simple fact is we will never know...

Well maybe if their is a god we can ask him one day I suppose.

[Old Man]

First of all, I am not looking for an argument. I looked up word opinion and it states the following:

1) A belief, conclusion, or judgement not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. 2) An evaluation based on special knowledge. 3) Prevailing feeling or sentiment.

Now if you wanted a debate on Cox this may be another story. Then arguments with facts and the like can be said.

Beating the rest of those sad teams in the NL East just may not be the greatest thing in the world. But this is also just another opinion.

Do hope opinions are ok in this forum, as well as debates.

[toanstrom]

Originally posted by Old Man
Beating the rest of those sad teams in the NL East just may not be the greatest thing in the world. But this is also just another opinion.

Once again, not quite sure which teams these would be? maybe the 91 Dodgers with Strawberry and Ramon Martinez who gave the Braves a fantastic race? The 92 Reds who were loaded with talent and managed by Lou Pinella? The 93 Giants who were so sad that they only won 103 games? The 97 Marlins who could only scrape by to win the World Series? Or the recent Mets who had just as much, if not more talent than the Braves and also made the Series? Yup, the Braves have had no competition all right.

People are always looking to discredit Cox but truth be told he always gets the job done, and always wins against the top competition.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
You are taking sides, and he did need to.

Mal,

There is no requirement to provide FACTS to back up an opinion.
I don't know why I have to back up why I have an opinion.

You are trying to statistically back up James' opinion and it can't be done.

Its a freaking opinion, not fact.

You can spout all you want, but I posted my OPINION. What's it worth? NOTHING, but its MY opinion.

If I had said Torre has won more WS in the past 10 years than any other manager, thats NOT an opinion and is backed up by stats.

There's a difference in a fact and an opinion.

Secondly, I don't HAVE to justify any opinion I have to you, or anyone else. Why? Because its only an opinion. Don't flatter yourself thinking that you deserve a factual basis for someone else's opinion.

I still say that you're stoked b/c someone didnt agree with your butt buddy, Bill James.

........but in the end, who cares? Not me.

OK, here goes:


BOBBY COX IS THE GREATEST MANAGER TODAY!!

Now will you drop it?

[Malleus Dei]

Old Man, you alias you:

Look up the difference between supported opinions, informed opinions, and uninformed opinions. The time you spend doing it will be well worth it for you.