Bobby Cox gets 1800th win

Malleus Dei · 09-20-2002, 05:35 PM

Bobby Cox became the 12th manager in MLB history to hit the 1,800 win plateau last night.

When Bill James rated managers in "The Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers," Cox rated as the best manager in the game today.

When the Braves play, you have the chance to see a future legend of baseball manage. Enjoy it.

LivnLegend · 09-20-2002, 05:58 PM

As much as I hate to admit it, he's one of the all-time best. For years I was a detractor of his but slowly I have come around to realize they don't come much better. I still root against the Braves in the playoffs every year but the fact that they are in the mix every year tells you something.

Malleus Dei · 09-20-2002, 08:10 PM

He isn't fiery, doesn't have great charisma, doesn't get in fistfights or wear silly disguises, isn't photogenic, and doesn't give good sound bytes. Despite all of that, he's the best manager in the game today.

Cooleyvol · 09-21-2002, 07:26 AM

I could put a winner on the field if given that squad.

Malleus Dei · 09-21-2002, 09:36 AM

Oh, sure, and the only thing that kept me from managing that team to eleven straight division titles and being rated by Bill James as the best manager in baseball (by virtue of getting my team to perform better than they otherwise would have been expected to) was the tiny little fact that the Braves never hired me into that easy sinecure of a manager's job. Of course Cox is a no-talent lazy bum who has been carried everywhere by his players. Sheesh, give me a break.

Cooleyvol · 09-21-2002, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Oh, sure, and the only thing that kept me from managing that team to eleven straight division titles and being rated by Bill James as the best manager in baseball (by virtue of getting my team to perform better than they otherwise would have been expected to) was the tiny little fact that the Braves never hired me into that easy sinecure of a manager's job. Of course Cox is a no-talent lazy bum who has been carried everywhere by his players. Sheesh, give me a break.

Calm down, Mally.
Did I say he was a schmuck? I don't think so.

I merely suggested that with a squad such as the ones he has possessed in Atlanta, that his job was made alot easier.

You act as if he could have guided the DRays to the pennant this year.

Sure, he's had 11 or so straight division titles, but look at the rosters of those teams. Its not like he was trying to figure out who was going to be his rotation or anything like that.

PS You need a break.

Malleus Dei · 09-21-2002, 12:26 PM

Gee, Volly, you sounded like you think you could manage the Braves to a title, when we both know better.

Whether you like him or not, and no matter how hard you try to demean him, bear in mind that Cox has 1800 wins and eleven straight division titles. Bill James selected him as the best manager in baseball for a reason: he IS the best manager in baseball.

Cooleyvol · 09-21-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Gee, Volly, you sounded like you think you could manage the Braves to a title, when we both know better.

Whether you like him or not, and no matter how hard you try to demean him, bear in mind that Cox has 1800 wins and eleven straight division titles. Bill James selected him as the best manager in baseball for a reason: he IS the best manager in baseball.

I'm not gonna argue with you b/c its pointless.

Notice that I didn't say "division winner". I said "winner".

Yes, given that squad, I think I could win 83 games in a season. You don't think you could do that.

I didnt demean him at ALL. I just pointed out the quality of squads that he had to work with.

Sorry, dude. I forgot that its impossible to disagree with you. I think he's a good manager, but the best.....I'm not so sure about.

.........but if Bill James said it, its gospel.

Malleus Dei · 09-21-2002, 01:17 PM

"...given a set of twenty-five players, there are 741,354,768,000 (741 billion, 354 million, 768 thousand) different ways to choose nine players from those 25..."

- Bill James

JAttractive · 09-21-2002, 01:40 PM

Yeah but 99 percent of those are probably illogical and anyone with any sense of baseball would not even consider them. Ie. how many combinations of those have 2 or more pitchers batting or in odd spots such as 1st -7th?

Besides I believe even you have pointed out that lineup orders probably mean very little. Now I am not suggesting manager's are not an important part of a team or that they can't make a difference in your success but certainly the strength of your team is far larger a determination of your wins/losses than the ability of a manager. Put Billy Cox on the DRays and they are still probably the worst team in baseball.

Anyway I don't disagree he is a great manager but just because Bill James says he is the best does not make it fact. He may be the most successful or something along those lines but you can't prove who is the best so it is all opinion (you would need to remove all other factors first which is impossible). For all we know the greatest manager may have been Buck Martinez or some other guy who happened to be given a weak squad that no manager could have made a winner out of.

Look at Cito Gaston. He won two World Series and had great success with the Jays even beating the above Mr. Cox. As a long time fan of Toronto though I have read numerous articles that rip him as a manager. These are all opinions however. Certainly Cito gave you results but it was with an amazing club... Does that make him great though? Personally I loved him and thought he was perfect for that squad (what was their to tinker with?) who simply needed a non-disruptive club house.

Oh well I don't mean to sound like I am ripping on Cox (I have a ton of respect for him actually), Bill James (who I think is amazing), or you Malleus (I love reading your posts and often agree with many of them). I just have to disagree when something that can't be proven is passed off as fact. He may very well be the best manager but you can't prove it is all.

darkhorse · 09-21-2002, 02:25 PM

If Bill James said it that seems to be scripture for MD. Some people get highly offended when their religious beliefs are debated. Cox is a fine manager, no one seems to be questioning that. Earl Weaver didn't have as much post season success as some great managers but I still consider him the best ever and use many of his tendencies when playing OOTP.

[WWBL]Batboy · 09-21-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol

Sure, he's had 11 or so straight division titles, ......

Not to sound like a know it all, but living in Atlanta I get to hear this stuff on a daily basis. The Braves have 11 straight division titles, but Mr. Cox has 12 straight. His last job was with Toronto where he won the divison there.

Also many people forget Bobby Cox was the GM of the Braves before he took back the job of manager. While he was the GM he was the laughing stock of MLB for drafting a SS named Chipper Jones first over all, when the entire league said Todd Van Popple (who?) was going to be a star. Bobby Cox as GM also traded to get AA pitcher John Smoltz and drafted Javy Lopez, Ryan Klesko, Steve Avery and many others who have helped out over the last few seasons. So, don't forget that a lot of the talent he has, he hand picked for himself.

All this being said, the man still drives me crazy. Flash back to '92 during game seven of the NLCS when Sid Bream scored the winning run from second base. Hey that's great the Braves won, but what the heck was Sid doing on second base? He's the slowest player in the Majors and he's the winning run in game 7, why wasn't somebody running for him? And to close this out and to bring us up to date to this season (there are many things that make you go hmmmmmm with Bobby Cox) but Mark Derosa is one of the better hitters on the team this season, yet he plays every 3rd game if he's that lucky.

The man really drives me crazy, but he is good.

Cooleyvol · 09-21-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
"...given a set of twenty-five players, there are 741,354,768,000 (741 billion, 354 million, 768 thousand) different ways to choose nine players from those 25..."

- Bill James

I think Bobby had considerably less numbers of combinations that were actually feasible. Come on Mal, you know there wouldnt be NEAR that many combos if you were the Atlanta manager.

Malleus Dei · 09-21-2002, 04:49 PM

I wasn't going to bring up the fact that Cox handpicked some of the better players, but I'm glad that someone did. Likewise Cox's success in Toronto.

Bill James has done virtually all of the analytical work to date on the rating of managers and even published a book on it. Like him or not, there is no greater expert on the subject.

If the hard facts - Cox's 1800 wins, his twelve (okay, let's count his one with the Jay's) straight division titles, and his ability to judge talent - combined with the results of a study on the subject by greatest living expert on the subject can't convince someone about how good Cox is, then IMO they are beyond reasoned discussion.

Malleus Dei · 09-21-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [WWBL]Batboy
Flash back to '92 during game seven of the NLCS when Sid Bream scored the winning run from second base. Hey that's great the Braves won, but what the heck was Sid doing on second base? He's the slowest player in the Majors and he's the winning run in game 7, why wasn't somebody running for him?

As I recall, Cox wanted Sid's bat in the lineup if the game, which was at that point tied 2-2 in the ninth, went to extra innings.

Cox makes a lot of long-range decisions that will look odd to you when you are thinking short-range. IMO the reason for his long-term success and for the Braves winning their division so consistently is that Cox is such a long-range thinker...which may also at least partially explain why he and the Braves don't do that well in the playoffs, which are the ultimate in short-range baseball.

Cooleyvol · 09-21-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
I wasn't going to bring up the fact that Cox handpicked some of the better players, but I'm glad that someone did. Likewise Cox's success in Toronto.

Bill James has done virtually all of the analytical work to date on the rating of managers and even published a book on it. Like him or not, there is no greater expert on the subject.

If the hard facts - Cox's 1800 wins, his twelve (okay, let's count his one with the Jay's) straight division titles, and his ability to judge talent - combined with the results of a study on the subject by greatest living expert on the subject can't convince someone about how good Cox is, then IMO they are beyond reasoned discussion.

.....the fact that you happen to agree with him is the ONLY reason that you're so vehement in your posts.

Cox is a good manager, I agree, but the best? I think not.

Billy Martin.........now there was a manager!

Just b/c James wrote a book on the subject doesnt make him correct in everything he says about it, does it?

If I wrote a book on how big of an a$$ you can be, would that make me correct?

[WWBL]Batboy · 09-21-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei

As I recall, Cox wanted Sid's bat in the lineup if the game, which was at that point tied 2-2 in the ninth, went to extra innings.

Cox makes a lot of long-range decisions that will look odd to you when you are thinking short-range. IMO the reason for his long-term success and for the Braves winning their division so consistently is that Cox is such a long-range thinker...which may also at least partially explain why he and the Braves don't do that well in the playoffs, which are the ultimate in short-range baseball.

Maybe you hit the nail on the head as to why every Oct. Cox makes me bang my head against the wall.

Red Blow · 09-21-2002, 06:30 PM

Bobby Cox? Earl Weaver? Cito Gaston?

Yes, fine managers. But the best?

I suppose no one here has ever heard of Joe Schultz?

Now... let's go pound some Budweiser....

JAttractive · 09-21-2002, 06:42 PM

Hehe I never said Cito was one of the best. I just really liked him and thought he was great for that team.

Malleus Dei · 09-21-2002, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
.....the fact that you happen to agree with him is the ONLY reason that you're so vehement in your posts.

You have to keep making things personal, don't you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
Cox is a good manager, I agree, but the best? I think not.

Okay, who else currently managing has the numbers or talent to match him?

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
Billy Martin.........now there was a manager!.

No argument on that. Billy, flawed human being that he was, was one hell of a manager.

Hmm..weren't you the guy arguing against personal stuff being posted on this board a while back?

09-20-2002, 05:58 PM	#2
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	As much as I hate to admit it, he's one of the all-time best. For years I was a detractor of his but slowly I have come around to realize they don't come much better. I still root against the Braves in the playoffs every year but the fact that they are in the mix every year tells you something. __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

09-21-2002, 02:25 PM	#11
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	If Bill James said it that seems to be scripture for MD. Some people get highly offended when their religious beliefs are debated. Cox is a fine manager, no one seems to be questioning that. Earl Weaver didn't have as much post season success as some great managers but I still consider him the best ever and use many of his tendencies when playing OOTP. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan." Last edited by darkhorse; 09-21-2002 at 02:32 PM.

09-21-2002, 06:30 PM	#18
Red Blow Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 404	Bobby Cox? Earl Weaver? Cito Gaston? Yes, fine managers. But the best? I suppose no one here has ever heard of Joe Schultz? Now... let's go pound some Budweiser.... __________________ http://www.nobl.net This is your father's league.

09-21-2002, 07:26 AM	#4
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	I could put a winner on the field if given that squad.

09-21-2002, 01:40 PM	#10
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	Yeah but 99 percent of those are probably illogical and anyone with any sense of baseball would not even consider them. Ie. how many combinations of those have 2 or more pitchers batting or in odd spots such as 1st -7th? Besides I believe even you have pointed out that lineup orders probably mean very little. Now I am not suggesting manager's are not an important part of a team or that they can't make a difference in your success but certainly the strength of your team is far larger a determination of your wins/losses than the ability of a manager. Put Billy Cox on the DRays and they are still probably the worst team in baseball. Anyway I don't disagree he is a great manager but just because Bill James says he is the best does not make it fact. He may be the most successful or something along those lines but you can't prove who is the best so it is all opinion (you would need to remove all other factors first which is impossible). For all we know the greatest manager may have been Buck Martinez or some other guy who happened to be given a weak squad that no manager could have made a winner out of. Look at Cito Gaston. He won two World Series and had great success with the Jays even beating the above Mr. Cox. As a long time fan of Toronto though I have read numerous articles that rip him as a manager. These are all opinions however. Certainly Cito gave you results but it was with an amazing club... Does that make him great though? Personally I loved him and thought he was perfect for that squad (what was their to tinker with?) who simply needed a non-disruptive club house. Oh well I don't mean to sound like I am ripping on Cox (I have a ton of respect for him actually), Bill James (who I think is amazing), or you Malleus (I love reading your posts and often agree with many of them). I just have to disagree when something that can't be proven is passed off as fact. He may very well be the best manager but you can't prove it is all.

09-21-2002, 06:42 PM	#19
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	Hehe I never said Cito was one of the best. I just really liked him and thought he was great for that team.