MVP Considerations - Page 4

Crapshoot · 09-08-2002, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

Very logical and very well thought comments. However in the end I would still vote for Jeter of Arod in the 2002 season, hmm let me change that, I would vote for Soriano over Arod this year

your comments on the other hand, still show a lack of logic. While we're at it, lets make Luis Sojo the MVP over Arod. He knows how to win right ? Hell sign him, and we can get a great "clubhouse presence"

ehrie · 09-08-2002, 01:39 PM

Exactly, that's the biggest problem I have with the subjective opinions stated by a lot of people who dismiss statistical analysis of baseball players. Give me something besides just your opinion, please, and then we'll have somehting to work with! =D

Nero · 09-09-2002, 12:03 AM

What it comes down to in reality, and leaves it open to argument is the name of the award. If it was changed to Player of the Year, I suspect that most everyone here would vote for Alex Rodriguez, because in the AL, he's put up the BEST individual numbers, despite the fact that he's on a losing team.

The fact that the award is called the Most Valuable Player is probably a mistake. Everyone and their sister can make a case for some player who has value to their winning team.

Angels- David Eckstein
A's- Miguel Tejada
Twins- Tori Hunter
Yankees- Alfonso Soriano
Mariners- Ichiro

.......you get my point. Most awards go to the player who has statistically the best numbers. When it's all said and done though, with the MVP, you need to factor in more than just the numbers, also involved SHOULD be value to team. Often times, that should be the tie breaker, but to suggest that David Eckstein's value to the Angels is of more worth than than A-Rod's statistical superiority is ridiculous.

Does anyone truly believe that A-Rod isnt statistically the best offensive player in the AL this year ?? Problem is, he plays on a last place team. My two other strong choices, have lesser stats in most cases, but more of the intangibles, Soriano only has 9 less total bases than A-Rod, and that's strictly thanks to his speed. Tejada is lesser than both, but probably has more harder to measure value, reminds me of Barry Larkin back in '95, from a value perspective, not a stat prospective.

If I had a vote:

1. Miguel Tejada- He really shone during the winning streak, saving his best moments for when the team really needed it. It's tough to put a worth on his intangibles, but I think that he really stepped it up without Jason Giambi, and is probably the most irreplaceable ( if injured ) player on any playoff hopefull team.

2. Alex Rodriguez- It's not his fault his team has no pitching, but he's made the most of his opportunities, and done his part, he's 8 up in HR's, and 9 up in RBI's. His offense has been amazing, but he does incur a slight penalty for being on a losing team.

3. Alfonso Soriano- Falls to 3rd, because you could plausibly argue Jason Giambi, ( Yankee fans will say Jeter as well....) Soriano's offense has been crucial, as well as the fact that he exhibits speed as well as power ( kind of like A-Rod did before he realized that they pay you for HR's, not SB's ! )

Bottom line is, people who want you to consider intangibles need to also consider the fact that the award should be called the Player of the Year, not the MVP, and if you still leave it to MVP, you've gotta consider the statistically great player, even if his team doesnt do well. The weight you put on the intangibles is up to you......

Delgadodawg · 09-09-2002, 03:43 PM

Without a doubt in my opinion A-Rod is the AL MVP.
Followed by Miguel Tejada.
After that no one is even that close. (IMO)

The only way win-loss records should come into play is in a tiebreak situation.

twins15 · 09-09-2002, 04:03 PM

1. A-Rod
2. Tajada
3. Soriano
4. Hunter

CubsFan · 09-09-2002, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
My take on the MVP is how well his team would play (or how poorly) without him.

This is whay I discount A-rod as an MVP candidate. His team would still be in last place without him!

Giambi left the A's and they are actually better off (just marginallY) without him.

Do you think that the A's would have won fewer games this year than they have if Giambi were their everyday 1B?

Do you think the Rangers would have the same number of wins if Neifi Perez were their SS?

Do you think the Angels would win more games with Eckstein, or with A-Rod?

angry_malkie · 09-09-2002, 04:41 PM

I think every team should nominate one player for MVP, and only those players should be eligible.

Highlander · 09-09-2002, 04:59 PM

I still have trouble with ARod because I don't see the MVP as a player of the year award. This is going back a bit, but apparently the people who do the real voting can't decide which way to go either. Look at the awards given back in 1987 and 1988. Andre Dawson wins in 1987 with a great year on a last place team. Then, in 1988, Kirk Gibson wins with an average year on a winning team. I think someone needs to make a decision as to how the MVP award is thought of....does it go to the best player of the most valuable?? ARod is the best, but the most valuable is a player who is most indispensible to their team's success. If your team is in last place, you have very little success. Whether Texas had ARod or Mario Mendoza at SS, they would still be in last place. I think probably Miguel Tejada is at the top of the list of most valuable to their team's success, with maybe Garrett Anderson up there as well. I think the Twins and Yankees are more of a team effort, with 3 or 4 guys in that indispensible role. In the NL, Bonds, Green, and Pujols are the top candidates to me.

Something no one has mentioned (or at least not much and I missed it), is the voting of pitchers as MVPs. I am still not sure how I feel about it, but this year it seems as logical as any year I can remember. Think of where Anaheim would be without Jarrod Washburn. Even though they are probably not a playoff team, how bad would Boston be without Pedro and Derek Lowe?? In the NL, I think the case is even better for a shared MVP between Schilling and Johnson. I don't know if there are 2 players who are more indispensible to their team's success than these two guys. They are responsible for almost half of their wins. Unlike most other pitchers, they also have an effect on days they don't pitch. Since they almost always go at least 8 innings, they keep the bullpen fresher, and take pressure off the other starters. As I said, I am not sure how I feel about pitchers as MVPs, but there have not been too many that have made as strong of a case as Schilling and Johnson have this year.

twins15 · 09-09-2002, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angry_malkie
I think every team should nominate one player for MVP, and only those players should be eligible.

What would happen ig the A's traded for A-Rod, witht he angers paying most of the salary of course. Would Tejada have a chance and not ARod? Or vice versa? I just dont think that that would work.

CMH · 09-09-2002, 05:03 PM

forget it, i started a thread on it. it needs its own.

09-08-2002, 01:39 PM	#62
ehrie Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 85	Exactly, that's the biggest problem I have with the subjective opinions stated by a lot of people who dismiss statistical analysis of baseball players. Give me something besides just your opinion, please, and then we'll have somehting to work with! =D __________________ <a href="http://www.bbl.ootp-leagues.com" target="_blank">Black Sox Baseball League</a> Commish BBL Yankees

09-09-2002, 04:03 PM	#65
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	1. A-Rod 2. Tajada 3. Soriano 4. Hunter __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-09-2002, 04:59 PM	#68
Highlander All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,017	I still have trouble with ARod because I don't see the MVP as a player of the year award. This is going back a bit, but apparently the people who do the real voting can't decide which way to go either. Look at the awards given back in 1987 and 1988. Andre Dawson wins in 1987 with a great year on a last place team. Then, in 1988, Kirk Gibson wins with an average year on a winning team. I think someone needs to make a decision as to how the MVP award is thought of....does it go to the best player of the most valuable?? ARod is the best, but the most valuable is a player who is most indispensible to their team's success. If your team is in last place, you have very little success. Whether Texas had ARod or Mario Mendoza at SS, they would still be in last place. I think probably Miguel Tejada is at the top of the list of most valuable to their team's success, with maybe Garrett Anderson up there as well. I think the Twins and Yankees are more of a team effort, with 3 or 4 guys in that indispensible role. In the NL, Bonds, Green, and Pujols are the top candidates to me. Something no one has mentioned (or at least not much and I missed it), is the voting of pitchers as MVPs. I am still not sure how I feel about it, but this year it seems as logical as any year I can remember. Think of where Anaheim would be without Jarrod Washburn. Even though they are probably not a playoff team, how bad would Boston be without Pedro and Derek Lowe?? In the NL, I think the case is even better for a shared MVP between Schilling and Johnson. I don't know if there are 2 players who are more indispensible to their team's success than these two guys. They are responsible for almost half of their wins. Unlike most other pitchers, they also have an effect on days they don't pitch. Since they almost always go at least 8 innings, they keep the bullpen fresher, and take pressure off the other starters. As I said, I am not sure how I feel about pitchers as MVPs, but there have not been too many that have made as strong of a case as Schilling and Johnson have this year. __________________ "The baseball mania has run its course. It has no future as a professional endeavor." — Cincinnati Gazette editorial, 1879

09-09-2002, 12:03 AM	#63
Nero Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 206	What it comes down to in reality, and leaves it open to argument is the name of the award. If it was changed to Player of the Year, I suspect that most everyone here would vote for Alex Rodriguez, because in the AL, he's put up the BEST individual numbers, despite the fact that he's on a losing team. The fact that the award is called the Most Valuable Player is probably a mistake. Everyone and their sister can make a case for some player who has value to their winning team. Angels- David Eckstein A's- Miguel Tejada Twins- Tori Hunter Yankees- Alfonso Soriano Mariners- Ichiro .......you get my point. Most awards go to the player who has statistically the best numbers. When it's all said and done though, with the MVP, you need to factor in more than just the numbers, also involved SHOULD be value to team. Often times, that should be the tie breaker, but to suggest that David Eckstein's value to the Angels is of more worth than than A-Rod's statistical superiority is ridiculous. Does anyone truly believe that A-Rod isnt statistically the best offensive player in the AL this year ?? Problem is, he plays on a last place team. My two other strong choices, have lesser stats in most cases, but more of the intangibles, Soriano only has 9 less total bases than A-Rod, and that's strictly thanks to his speed. Tejada is lesser than both, but probably has more harder to measure value, reminds me of Barry Larkin back in '95, from a value perspective, not a stat prospective. If I had a vote: 1. Miguel Tejada- He really shone during the winning streak, saving his best moments for when the team really needed it. It's tough to put a worth on his intangibles, but I think that he really stepped it up without Jason Giambi, and is probably the most irreplaceable ( if injured ) player on any playoff hopefull team. 2. Alex Rodriguez- It's not his fault his team has no pitching, but he's made the most of his opportunities, and done his part, he's 8 up in HR's, and 9 up in RBI's. His offense has been amazing, but he does incur a slight penalty for being on a losing team. 3. Alfonso Soriano- Falls to 3rd, because you could plausibly argue Jason Giambi, ( Yankee fans will say Jeter as well....) Soriano's offense has been crucial, as well as the fact that he exhibits speed as well as power ( kind of like A-Rod did before he realized that they pay you for HR's, not SB's ! ) Bottom line is, people who want you to consider intangibles need to also consider the fact that the award should be called the Player of the Year, not the MVP, and if you still leave it to MVP, you've gotta consider the statistically great player, even if his team doesnt do well. The weight you put on the intangibles is up to you......

09-09-2002, 03:43 PM	#64
Delgadodawg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Vancouver Posts: 800	Without a doubt in my opinion A-Rod is the AL MVP. Followed by Miguel Tejada. After that no one is even that close. (IMO) The only way win-loss records should come into play is in a tiebreak situation.

09-09-2002, 04:41 PM	#67
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	I think every team should nominate one player for MVP, and only those players should be eligible.

09-09-2002, 05:03 PM	#70
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	forget it, i started a thread on it. it needs its own.