MVP Considerations

angry_malkie · 09-05-2002, 05:05 PM

This may have been said before, but i haven't seen or heard a lot of people sayt it anywhere so...

Why do stats enter into consideration for the MVP award? it's supposed to be awarderded to the most VALUABLE player on a team, not the best, hence the name (or at least i would assume so..).

I know hitting .350 with 125 walks, 50 homers, 120 RBI and 5 GDP would make you not only outstandingly good but also very valuable, as would having an ERA of 1.50, 400Ks, 10 BBs, 350 IP and an OBA of .100. I know a hell of a lot of the time the best and most valuable player on a team is the same guy.

But, from what i can tell, there's no attention payed to a players ability to make a team run better as a unit. No-one ever says "that guy stopped 312 arguments in the dugout, averaging X per game." surely something like that would make your team-mates play better, thus you'd be pretty valuable? or someone who just plain fills a slot on a club that would otherwise be sorely lackingly in that area, but well stocked in the places that are dependant on that player? like a fast high OBP guy on a team that has good batters to bat 2-8, a bench of folk who could start, but needs a lead-off guy? a reliable, rubber-armed middle releiver on a team that has a good rotation and a solid closer, but an otherwise weak bullpen and no starters that can regularly go more than 6 innings?

Maybe i'm missing something, but i can't see how having the best stats automatically makes you the most valuable... I wouldn't consider Jason Giambi that valuable if i already had someone like Todd Helton who yeah, probably isn't as good, but would be able to fill the same place on the club well enough for the team as a whole to do more or less as well without Jason at first.

I spread writing this post between a few other things so it might not make a lot of sense, but you should be able to tell roughly what i mean... And don't take player/stat examples as rigid, i'm just trying to put a point across using the best metaphors and hypothetical situations as i can come up with in a short time.

PLEASE tell me i'm not the only person who thinks like this?

twins15 · 09-05-2002, 05:08 PM

Not everyone knows what goes on in the clubhouse, etc. so how else would thay really do it?

angry_malkie · 09-05-2002, 05:16 PM

Well maybe the clubhouse example was flawed, but it's easy enough to tell that a team doesn't need, say, A-Rod as much as I-Rod when they have Garciaparra as a back-up SS and AA-level backup catcher, regardless of the compared stats of the *-Rods (assuming of course that none of the 4 players are having ridiculously sub-standard years).

I know that's a very exaggerated example, but again i'm just trying to put a point across..

fantom1979 · 09-05-2002, 05:36 PM

Its still comes down to production. It doesnt matter how many fights a SF Giant player stops between Kent and Bonds, Bonds is still driving in the runs that wins the games. Team leaders are very important, and i really do see your point, but a team cannot win without the numbers that players put up. Those numbers are Hits, Runs, HR, RBI, AVG. Everyone of those stats reflect runs or the potiental to get runs which directly reflects the teams ability to win.

angry_malkie · 09-05-2002, 06:31 PM

Yeah, I know the production is important, but if the same job could be done by another player ont the team (not as well, granted, but not badly either), what makes them so valuable? Bonds is an example of being the best and the most valuable, whis as i said is often the case, but they aren't synonymous.

[The following exampls assume a line-up consisting of average players, and the three named stars]

If 3 of your players are Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb, it seems blindingly obvious to me that Cobb is the most valuable. The other two would all be doing more or less the same thing to produce runs, without a huge gap in ability, whereas Ty would be doing something completely different. Similarly if you had Ty Cobb, Rickey Henderson and Vladimir Guerrero, Vlad would be worth more to the team.

I'm probably explaining this really badly and making myself look like a moron in the process, but i know what i mean and it's sound logic

Kelric · 09-05-2002, 07:27 PM

My American League vote if the Angels make the playoffs would be to David Eckstein. Otherwise, Torii Hunter.
National League, Barry Bonds. Even if the Giants don't make the playoffs, Barry Bonds. Their entire offense revolves around him. Kent would hardly put up the numbers he had now if Barry wasn't there.

Carplos · 09-05-2002, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelric
My American League vote if the Angels make the playoffs would be to David Eckstein.

And maybe when the Giants make the playoffs, we can give it to Benito Santiago, at least he was an "All Star"...

rferry · 09-05-2002, 10:23 PM

does anyone think Cobb would play with Vlad or Bonds or Sosa as teammates?

Kelric · 09-05-2002, 11:46 PM

Cobb would probably rather be on a team by himself. Supposedly he was a tremendous racist.

And what's wrong with naming David Eckstein the MVP? The guy has totally helped transform the perception of that team to a gritty ballclub that will try it's hardest to win. Without him they aren't nearly as good as they have been the last two years.

Dwolfson20 · 09-06-2002, 12:45 AM

I hope you're joking.

Kelric · 09-06-2002, 12:56 AM

Name another player that has had such a big impact on his team in the last two years.

Jason Giambi - No, the Yankees go to the Series without him last year, they could easily do it again this year without him.

Alfonso Soriano - Possibly.

Nomar Garciaparra - No.

Miguel Tejada - Maybe, but their pitching staff leads that team, so no.

Then I kind of run out because thinking at 1am is hard.

Crapshoot · 09-06-2002, 01:36 AM

You must be joking..
I love it when people buy into this "veteran experience" and "good clubhouse prescence" bull****.... "knows how to win"...
Eckstein is a decent player... even statistically speaking...
but he isnt even the 10th best player on his team....

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-06-2002, 01:47 AM

My take on the MVP is how well his team would play (or how poorly) without him.

This is whay I discount A-rod as an MVP candidate. His team would still be in last place without him!

Giambi left the A's and they are actually better off (just marginallY) without him.

My picks for MVP in the AL is:
(1) Tejada from the A's
(2) Soriano from the Yankees
(3) Garret Anderson from the Angels

I don't believe that pitchers should win the MVP unless they have an unbelievably great year (26 or more wins) and there are no strong contenders from the everyday players.

In the NL I would have to agree with Bonds as the choice. The Giants would be in last place without him and Jef Kent would be hitting about >250-20-75!

Dwolfson20 · 09-06-2002, 02:11 AM

It's similar to the people who argue that Jeter is better than A-Rod because he's "a winner." Please. If the two switched teams, the Yankees would probably be winning 110 games every single year and just dominating the playoffs. Not that they aren't already, but they would be so much better. Even YankeePride knows this.

CMH · 09-06-2002, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
It's similar to the people who argue that Jeter is better than A-Rod because he's "a winner." Please. If the two switched teams, the Yankees would probably be winning 110 games every single year and just dominating the playoffs. Not that they aren't already, but they would be so much better. Even YankeePride knows this.

i wholeheartedly (a lot of people are sayin that in this board) agree.

As important as Jeter is to the New York Yankees, I would rather have Alex Rodriguez manning the 6 hole.

Bernie could bat second easily. ARod could bat third or fourth. Giambi flips a coin on batting in front or behind (no jokes please) ARod.

Carplos · 09-06-2002, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
Eckstein is a decent player... even statistically speaking...
but he isnt even the 10th best player on his team....

Let's compare two players here, one is David Eckstein, guess who the other is..

AVG
.300
.322

OBP
.373
.352

SLG
.405
.457

OPS
.778
.809

And for those too lazy to check or guess, the bottom guy would be Adam Kennedy, Kennedy isn't exactly leaps and bounds above Eckstein, and some people would argue Eckstein is better because of the higher OBP, either way, when's the last time you heard anybody talk about him like people go on about Eckstein?

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-06-2002, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
It's similar to the people who argue that Jeter is better than A-Rod because he's "a winner." Please. If the two switched teams, the Yankees would probably be winning 110 games every single year and just dominating the playoffs. Not that they aren't already, but they would be so much better. Even YankeePride knows this.

I have to disagree here. A-rod does put up better stats than Jeter this is true. I think A-rod is a beter hitter than Jeter, no doubt about that. Is A-rod a team player, yes but I don't think to the same extent that Jeter is. I think A-rod puts his numbers before his teams victories, not a doubt in my mind about that. Remember I watched A-rod for 5 years here in Seattle. Sure he will spout all of this sugar coated talk about how he is about the team and about winning and that he will donate his salary to help baseball..blah, blah, blah. The fans that have watched him and gotten to know him, realize that this is just a "stage" persona he likes to wear for the press and the public. He has been and will be (unless he matures ), about his stats and his money. There is nothing wrong with that except when he lies to the fans about his real motives.

Yes this is a fan who was somewhat resentful about him leaving the Mariners for the Rangers. I was not upset that he left for the money, I was disappointed that he lied about why he left. He clearly stated that he was going to the Rangers to be on a winning team!! Remember this was in between 2000-01 seasons. The Rangers had finished in last in 2000. They have finished last in 2001 and will again this year. Fans in Seattle started calling him Pay-rod, because of his outrageous lie!

Ok now lets put that aside and look at comparing Jeter with A-rod. The Yankees need Jeter, they do not need A-rod. Jeter ignites their offense along with Soriano. Taking Jeter out and putting A-rod in would give them more homers but less productivity from the top, so less men on base and less scoring chances. I honestly believe that the Yanks would not win anymore games if you were to trade Jeter for A-rod, in actuality I believe that they would lose more games with A-rod!

It will be very interesting following A-rod's career with the Rangers. I will bet you that it will be much like Hank Aaron's career with the Atlanta Braves, allot of stats but no rings! Payrod should have stayed with the M's, though they might not have gotten Ichiro if that was the case and then they would never have won 116 last year...take that to the bank.

Kelric · 09-06-2002, 01:41 PM

I admit it, I have a soft spot for Eckstein if you hadn't guessed.

Followed him in the Red Sox minors for a while before they inexplicably cut the guy...bah! Bah! Triple bah!

ehrie · 09-06-2002, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Why do stats enter into consideration for the MVP award? it's supposed to be awarderded to the most VALUABLE player on a team, not the best, hence the name (or at least i would assume so..).

Emphasis added by me. This is the the thing that has totally perplexed me for a while now. It's M.V.P. not M.V.P.O.A.W.T(On a Winning Team). Every year it's the LEAGUE'S most valueable player, not a person who has value on their team. Atleast that is how I interpret it. The people who knock A-Rod because he's not a winner baffle me. What else do you want this guy to do?!?! He can't play all 9 positions for crying out loud. He produces far away above everybody in the AL this year and all everybody can do is blame him for the Rangers not winning. Does no one see the stupidity in that line of logic? This "he only cares about his stats" line is a bunch of bull too. What do you want him to do? Not produce so the whole team looks bad? I'm a Yankees fan, a big one, and any time I hear someone say they'd rather have Derek Jeter over A-Rod I want to throw up. Jeter isn't even in A-Rod's class when it comes to production and ability. Jeter just happens to be lucky enough to play on a better team and in New York, where when you win you are godly and untouchable. And that's all I have to say except A-Rod, in a logical world, would win the AL MVP running away and anybody who votes for anybody else, but Barry Bonds should have their vote taken away this year.

LivnLegend · 09-06-2002, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carplos
Kennedy isn't exactly leaps and bounds above Eckstein, and some people would argue Eckstein is better because of the higher OBP, either way, when's the last time you heard anybody talk about him like people go on about Eckstein?

Two reasons:

1) There are few people that play MLB all out like Eckstein. People love to cheer for the guy that plays above his perceived talent level and has a seemingly dirty uniform before the game even starts.

2) People love an underdog story. The fact that the Red Sox waived the guy and basically told him he wasn't a major league player, is another reason for fans to root for him.

09-05-2002, 05:05 PM	#1
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	MVP Considerations This may have been said before, but i haven't seen or heard a lot of people sayt it anywhere so... Why do stats enter into consideration for the MVP award? it's supposed to be awarderded to the most VALUABLE player on a team, not the best, hence the name (or at least i would assume so..). I know hitting .350 with 125 walks, 50 homers, 120 RBI and 5 GDP would make you not only outstandingly good but also very valuable, as would having an ERA of 1.50, 400Ks, 10 BBs, 350 IP and an OBA of .100. I know a hell of a lot of the time the best and most valuable player on a team is the same guy. But, from what i can tell, there's no attention payed to a players ability to make a team run better as a unit. No-one ever says "that guy stopped 312 arguments in the dugout, averaging X per game." surely something like that would make your team-mates play better, thus you'd be pretty valuable? or someone who just plain fills a slot on a club that would otherwise be sorely lackingly in that area, but well stocked in the places that are dependant on that player? like a fast high OBP guy on a team that has good batters to bat 2-8, a bench of folk who could start, but needs a lead-off guy? a reliable, rubber-armed middle releiver on a team that has a good rotation and a solid closer, but an otherwise weak bullpen and no starters that can regularly go more than 6 innings? Maybe i'm missing something, but i can't see how having the best stats automatically makes you the most valuable... I wouldn't consider Jason Giambi that valuable if i already had someone like Todd Helton who yeah, probably isn't as good, but would be able to fill the same place on the club well enough for the team as a whole to do more or less as well without Jason at first. I spread writing this post between a few other things so it might not make a lot of sense, but you should be able to tell roughly what i mean... And don't take player/stat examples as rigid, i'm just trying to put a point across using the best metaphors and hypothetical situations as i can come up with in a short time. PLEASE tell me i'm not the only person who thinks like this?

09-05-2002, 05:08 PM	#2
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Not everyone knows what goes on in the clubhouse, etc. so how else would thay really do it? __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-05-2002, 05:36 PM	#4
fantom1979 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 3,498	Its still comes down to production. It doesnt matter how many fights a SF Giant player stops between Kent and Bonds, Bonds is still driving in the runs that wins the games. Team leaders are very important, and i really do see your point, but a team cannot win without the numbers that players put up. Those numbers are Hits, Runs, HR, RBI, AVG. Everyone of those stats reflect runs or the potiental to get runs which directly reflects the teams ability to win. __________________

09-05-2002, 10:23 PM	#8
rferry All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: DC Posts: 549	does anyone think Cobb would play with Vlad or Bonds or Sosa as teammates? __________________ please excuse my grammar, i read baseball weekly in my high school english classes. Last edited by rferry; 09-05-2002 at 10:35 PM.

09-05-2002, 11:46 PM	#9
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	Cobb would probably rather be on a team by himself. Supposedly he was a tremendous racist. And what's wrong with naming David Eckstein the MVP? The guy has totally helped transform the perception of that team to a gritty ballclub that will try it's hardest to win. Without him they aren't nearly as good as they have been the last two years. Last edited by Kelric; 09-06-2002 at 12:54 AM.

09-05-2002, 05:16 PM	#3
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	Well maybe the clubhouse example was flawed, but it's easy enough to tell that a team doesn't need, say, A-Rod as much as I-Rod when they have Garciaparra as a back-up SS and AA-level backup catcher, regardless of the compared stats of the *-Rods (assuming of course that none of the 4 players are having ridiculously sub-standard years). I know that's a very exaggerated example, but again i'm just trying to put a point across..

09-05-2002, 06:31 PM	#5
angry_malkie Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 25	Yeah, I know the production is important, but if the same job could be done by another player ont the team (not as well, granted, but not badly either), what makes them so valuable? Bonds is an example of being the best and the most valuable, whis as i said is often the case, but they aren't synonymous. [The following exampls assume a line-up consisting of average players, and the three named stars] If 3 of your players are Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb, it seems blindingly obvious to me that Cobb is the most valuable. The other two would all be doing more or less the same thing to produce runs, without a huge gap in ability, whereas Ty would be doing something completely different. Similarly if you had Ty Cobb, Rickey Henderson and Vladimir Guerrero, Vlad would be worth more to the team. I'm probably explaining this really badly and making myself look like a moron in the process, but i know what i mean and it's sound logic

09-05-2002, 07:27 PM	#6
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	My American League vote if the Angels make the playoffs would be to David Eckstein. Otherwise, Torii Hunter. National League, Barry Bonds. Even if the Giants don't make the playoffs, Barry Bonds. Their entire offense revolves around him. Kent would hardly put up the numbers he had now if Barry wasn't there.

09-06-2002, 12:45 AM	#10
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	I hope you're joking. __________________

09-06-2002, 12:56 AM	#11
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	Name another player that has had such a big impact on his team in the last two years. Jason Giambi - No, the Yankees go to the Series without him last year, they could easily do it again this year without him. Alfonso Soriano - Possibly. Nomar Garciaparra - No. Miguel Tejada - Maybe, but their pitching staff leads that team, so no. Then I kind of run out because thinking at 1am is hard.

09-06-2002, 01:36 AM	#12
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	You must be joking.. I love it when people buy into this "veteran experience" and "good clubhouse prescence" bull****.... "knows how to win"... Eckstein is a decent player... even statistically speaking... but he isnt even the 10th best player on his team....

09-06-2002, 01:47 AM	#13
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	My take on the MVP is how well his team would play (or how poorly) without him. This is whay I discount A-rod as an MVP candidate. His team would still be in last place without him! Giambi left the A's and they are actually better off (just marginallY) without him. My picks for MVP in the AL is: (1) Tejada from the A's (2) Soriano from the Yankees (3) Garret Anderson from the Angels I don't believe that pitchers should win the MVP unless they have an unbelievably great year (26 or more wins) and there are no strong contenders from the everyday players. In the NL I would have to agree with Bonds as the choice. The Giants would be in last place without him and Jef Kent would be hitting about >250-20-75! __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-06-2002, 02:11 AM	#14
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	It's similar to the people who argue that Jeter is better than A-Rod because he's "a winner." Please. If the two switched teams, the Yankees would probably be winning 110 games every single year and just dominating the playoffs. Not that they aren't already, but they would be so much better. Even YankeePride knows this. __________________

09-06-2002, 01:41 PM	#18
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	I admit it, I have a soft spot for Eckstein if you hadn't guessed. Followed him in the Red Sox minors for a while before they inexplicably cut the guy...bah! Bah! Triple bah!