Very Disappointed with OOTP12

[Leatherfut]

Hi All,
I kind of skimmed the thread because when the flames start my eyes kind of glass over, so forgive me if I've missed something vital.
Responding to the OP, I think it's good to critique the game and put your opinion out there. I agree that it doesn't feel like a new version but more like a patch (though I'm still in the middle of my season so I haven't encountered all the new features). But I'm okay with that. Dishing out $30 a year for all this entertainment is a great value.
I'm a little confused. It sounds like you're giving up on ootp totally. Wasn't ootp11 good for you? Just go back to that. If there's never another version of the game, I'll still be a happy man with what is out now. I could play this game forever in it's current form.
Whatever it is, I hope you find your gaming Nirvana.

happy gaming,
Frank

[The Wolf]

Oh, joy, let's not just have a pointless and uncalled-for flamewar over this thread, let's throw in the whole history of the board and have a pointless and uncalled-for meta-flamewar of epic proportions! Let's fight over who posted what first back when!

Do you guys not get enough fiber in your diet or what?

This thread was calmed down and here two of you go. I wish there was a smilie for shaking your head in disgust.

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by Reggie

It isn't perfect, but I also don't want potential buyers to get the wrong idea that it is a game full of errors. It is an amazingly fun and realistic game to play that can use improvement in a few areas.

I want this love affair to last.

Exactly... I'm an OOTP user for long enough to know that between release day and the last patch the game get better. I sure don't understand why people who were client long before my time doesn't count that in their "unhappiness" with this year release... Even the well love OOTP 11 wasn't perfect before a couple of patches...

[D-BacksJosh]

Really I'm not sure what all of the fuss is about. OOTP is the best baseball sim you will find. Yeah, maybe they did spend more time and effort on iOOTP, maybe they will turn around and place that time and effort on patches for OOTP 12. I am confident that there will be patches to right the wrongs in the game over the next few months, time will tell. Either way, even with some of the bugs, the game is the best I've found. Remember, its just a game people, if you get that upset over the trivial things maybe it is time to get out and get a life, that is the softest way I can put it.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

Really I'm not sure what all of the fuss is about. OOTP is the best baseball sim you will find. Yeah, maybe they did spend more time and effort on iOOTP, maybe they will turn around and place that time and effort on patches for OOTP 12. I am confident that there will be patches to right the wrongs in the game over the next few months, time will tell. Either way, even with some of the bugs, the game is the best I've found.

Well put and thank you.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by D-BacksJosh

Really I'm not sure what all of the fuss is about. OOTP is the best baseball sim you will find. Yeah, maybe they did spend more time and effort on iOOTP, maybe they will turn around and place that time and effort on patches for OOTP 12. I am confident that there will be patches to right the wrongs in the game over the next few months, time will tell. Either way, even with some of the bugs, the game is the best I've found.

No Doubt. OOTP12 is the best baseball simulation out there and its not even close.

The thing is is that OOTP11 was also easily the best baseball simulation out there as well. For me, going from 11 to 12 was much more underwhelming from a feature standpoint and that bothers me when the game could be so much better.

I have extremely high hopes based on what I have heard is planned for 13.

[Skadan]

At the risk of being told to go play my PS3 by the guy who wants to keep the thread calm and rational, I'll second (or third, or fourth) the opinion of the original poster. But I take as much blame as anyone. Every year I get wrapped up in the hype and hope the changes announced are going to make OOTP a significantly better game and in the end am disappointed when they end up making OOTP a marginally better game. The solution, of course, is to only buy every third or fourth version. But every year I somehow convince myself that I really, really need the new announced features. Sometimes wanting something is more pleasurable than having it (I think Spock said that.) And I certainly can't blame a game developer for capitalizing on my own lack of self control

For the record, MLB: The Show wasn't terribly different this year either.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Let me get this straight. You think that insulting nicknames, designed to hurt, demean, and make arguments go angry and personal in what had been a civil thread up to that point are somehow a good idea here? If so, then your partisanship has totally overridden your judgment.

I think Killebrew's point was that you're doing pretty much the same thing as the poster whose comments you decried, you're just using different language to do it. When you say something like "your partisanship has totally overridden your judgment", you're just using four-syllable words to tell someone they're not capable of thinking critically. I don't see how that's any less offensive than telling someone they're an idiot.

And seriously, if someone includes some flippant throwaway line about the 'Guardians of the Game' in a post, it's just a flipping joke. It's hardly hurtful or demeaning. It brings to mind the Admiral Fitzwallace line from the West Wing: "I got some real honest-to-god battles to fight, Leo. I don't have time for the cosmetic ones."

Anyway, it's threads like this one that made me leave the General forum a couple of years ago. These discussions are just an impossibly frustrating waste of time.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, I agree that there was no one big thing to really point to as a reason to get this version. There are a bunch of little things, though. I am really, really digging the new injury diagnosis and the revamped scouting systems. And the "are you sure" button, I have to admit, is a pretty nice little feature; I've already used it once and although that's not necessarily a game-breaker, I always did hate accidentally pulling my pitcher when all I wanted to do was pinch-hit for a shortstop. Also the save game feature... I always just left my game on, but it's happened a few times over the years that my computer decided to install an update while I left it running and boom, I had to half-replay an entire day because I couldn't save when closing because I was in the middle of a game at the time.

So yeah, lots of little things. I don't know that I'd take 2 years of this but this is pretty fine with me.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by silvam14

I have extremely high hopes based on what I have heard is planned for 13.

Not to be a downer but with it being the first OOTP with a 3d on-field game I expect the forums to be filled with issues\complaints.

I could go on and on about what we will probably be hearing....

It doesn't look real.

The timing isn't right.

Why would they put this out when it doesn't even work? My machine is only 10 years old and I never update it but OOTP13 should still run.

etc. etc. etc.

Some will understand it's a first effort and, with the multitude of machine configurations and graphic cards, it will take time to get everything right. Others will scream to the high heavens that if it wasn't perfected it shouldn't have been added. Others will simply say "see I told you Markus should have never added it it only causes problems. Should have stayed text only."
And of course the obligatory "Sure my stat"X" hasn't been added but we have a nice 3d display that I'll never use."

I hope I'm wrong but I think it's going to be a bit tough around here next year.

[injury log]

And to get back on topic, I've long been a vocal supporter of OOTP, and I've donated a lot of time to feature design and beta testing the last few years. Still, my reaction to this year's game was similar to that in the original post in this thread. I do think OOTP is an incredible game, and I also think that any disappointment with OOTP12 is primarily because the exceptional quality of past versions of the game has led us to expect a lot, and perhaps too much. But I'm discovering some reasonably serious issues with the game now, and some of the new features don't quite work how I think they should, and the kind of constructive criticism in the original post is precisely what's needed to ensure that important problems with the game are addressed. I do think OOTP-12 is going to be pretty amazing after a patch or two.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, I agree that there was no one big thing to really point to as a reason to get this version. There are a bunch of little things, though. I am really, really digging the new injury diagnosis and the revamped scouting systems. And the "are you sure" button, I have to admit, is a pretty nice little feature; I've already used it once and although that's not necessarily a game-breaker, I always did hate accidentally pulling my pitcher when all I wanted to do was pinch-hit for a shortstop. Also the save game feature... I always just left my game on, but it's happened a few times over the years that my computer decided to install an update while I left it running and boom, I had to half-replay an entire day because I couldn't save when closing because I was in the middle of a game at the time.

So yeah, lots of little things. I don't know that I'd take 2 years of this but this is pretty fine with me.

Bingo. I'd throw in my personal favorite the new "auto-calculating" league total modifiers. All of these things add up to a big update IMHO.

I have to admit as I read this thread I think back to those that post every year Markus shouldn't add a thing and take a year to make sure every little bug is fixed and somehow we will all be happy paying for just that. Really?

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Bingo. I'd throw in my personal favorite the new "auto-calculating" league total modifiers. All of these things add up to a big update IMHO.

I have to admit as I read this thread I think back to those that post every year Markus shouldn't add a thing and take a year to make sure every little bug is fixed and somehow we will all be happy paying for just that. Really?

Yes, really. If I had to play OOTP11 for another year, that really wouldn't bother me. If I had to play OOTPX for an extra year, that wouldn't have bothered me. Same for 9 & 8. Now 06 would be a different story, but then 06 was a growing version with the new engine and probably where a lot of todays bugs originated from.

If Markus stated that there will be no 13, just an update that fixes 90% + of bugs that still exist, I would not have a problem with that and would gladly buy an "updated/bug fixed" version of 12 again next spring.

I'm sure there are plenty who feel the same as I do.

I'm sure there are plenty who don't.

Everyones mileage varies.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Yes, really. If I had to play OOTP11 for another year, that really wouldn't bother me. If I had to play OOTPX for an extra year, that wouldn't have bothered me. Same for 9 & 8. Now 06 would be a different story, but then 06 was a growing version with the new engine and probably where a lot of todays bugs originated from.

If Markus stated that there will be no 13, just an update that fixes 90% + of bugs that still exist, I would not have a problem with that and would gladly buy an "updated/bug fixed" version of 12 again next spring.

I'm sure there are plenty who feel the same as I do.

I'm sure there are plenty who don't.

Everyones mileage varies.

I could play 10 or 11 for the rest of my life if it were the last version, which is exactly why a "patch version" would not sell. So, unless Doc told me it was my last year to live what would be the point of buying the "fix" version with no new features? If 13(or "12 update" or 12.5, whatever you want to call it) was only a fix version the simple answer would be to play 12 for another year and then pick up 14 with all of the fixes plus new features. That's if there were a 14 at all considering the vast majority aren't going to buy a "patch version" when they can still play 12 or even 11 for that matter at "no additional charge".

I do agree there is a group that would be happy to pay for a "patch version" there will never be enough though to keep OOTP in business. Its just not going to happen.

[moore4807]

Gent's!

I'm known lately for off topic talk so I'll keep on the straight n narrow!

Game 12 is good - new features are cool - but make us all happy - you'll look like the fool! I'm sticking it out - the patches will come - if someone complains well throw out the bums!

I appreciate criticism, matter of fact you tell me whats wrong with me. I have no look here, I have no sound, yet I can incite viritrol with only four words!

" Guardians of the Gate" - leap on yer mounts for revenge, boys! This new game isn't GREAT, only good... Good Heavens there must be a fault! Off with someone's head! ok maybe a little too harsh, how about Its Iootp's fault YEAH! Kick the new kid on the block, oh wait thats so passe,

Now we have a good game here boys - give the developers some time to fix the financials, and a few other things! Go back to OOTP11 if you must, we'll hold game 12 in trust!

Now please realize this all was in fun - if we dont' hang together - be assured we'll all hang seperately!

Read along with me L - O - L, L-O-L, LOL!!!

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I could play 10 or 11 for the rest of my life if it were the last version, which is exactly why a "patch version" would not sell. So, unless Doc told me it was my last year to live what would be the point of buying the "fix" version with no new features? If 13(or "12 update" or 12.5, whatever you want to call it) was only a fix version the simple answer would be to play 12 for another year and then pick up 14 with all of the fixes plus new features. That's if there were a 14 at all considering the vast majority aren't going to buy a "patch version" when they can still play 12 or even 11 for that matter at "no additional charge".

I do agree there is a group that would be happy to pay for a "patch version" there will never be enough though to keep OOTP in business. Its just not going to happen.

The point of buying the fix is simple - you'd get a version with a ton less bugs. If you wanted to keep playing the buggy version for another year, that would be your prerogative. I beleive you'd be surprised how many would buy a new "12" if it contained only bug fixes, provided it actually fixed/squashed the vast majority of bugs.

The choice would be simple, play the first version of 12 for an extra year, with the bugs still in it, or buy the "new, bug fixed" version to play for that year.

I'm betting most people would upgrade, simply to get a much less buggy version, plus to support the company.

Like I said, plenty would, plenty wouldn't.

[Skadan]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

The point of buying the fix is simple - you'd get a version with a ton less bugs. If you wanted to keep playing the buggy version for another year, that would be your prerogative. I beleive you'd be surprised how many would buy a new "12" if it contained only bug fixes, provided it actually fixed/squashed the vast majority of bugs.

The choice would be simple, play the first version of 12 for an extra year, with the bugs still in it, or buy the "new, bug fixed" version to play for that year.

I'm betting most people would upgrade, simply to get a much less buggy version, plus to support the company.

Like I said, plenty would, plenty wouldn't.

I think what you're saying is both reasonable and probably true, but I also think it reflects a sad state of affairs in gaming. Just that someone could reasonably and accurately suggest that a company sell a broken product, then charge again for the working version... it just shows you what we've come to accept as gamers.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Skadan

I think what you're saying is both reasonable and probably true, but I also think it reflects a sad state of affairs in gaming. Just that someone could reasonably and accurately suggest that a company sell a broken product, then charge again for the working version... it just shows you what we've come to accept as gamers.

This

[LeiterFanatic]

Originally Posted by Skadan

I think what you're saying is both reasonable and probably true, but I also think it reflects a sad state of affairs in gaming. Just that someone could reasonably and accurately suggest that a company sell a broken product, then charge again for the working version... it just shows you what we've come to accept as gamers.

For proof of this, saunter over to the "Nascar the Game" forum and see the holy mess that game is. A promised patch, simply to add so elementary and essential element as yellow flags to a Nascar race, has been promised "soon" and "Almost ready" since April. The substantial fixes to that game will likely be included as DLC for a $15 fee over Xbox Live and PSN. Rumor has it though that Activision made the developers rush an unfinished game out the door.
As for OOTP, things aren't perfect but they will be one day, I trust in that based on the proven integrity of this development team. That said, I welcome alternate views and disappointments because they helpme see the program in ways that I don't use it or had not noticed.

[Skadan]

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

For proof of this, saunter over to the "Nascar the Game" forum and see the holy mess that game is. A promised patch, simply to add so elementary and essential element as yellow flags to a Nascar race, has been promised "soon" and "Almost ready" since April. The substantial fixes to that game will likely be included as DLC for a $15 fee over Xbox Live and PSN. Rumor has it though that Activision made the developers rush an unfinished game out the door.
As for OOTP, things aren't perfect but they will be one day, I trust in that based on the proven integrity of this development team. That said, I welcome alternate views and disappointments because they helpme see the program in ways that I don't use it or had not noticed.

I have a lot of respect for OOTP Developments. Over the years Markus has always under promised and over delivered. I said above that the new features each year don't improve the game as much as I always hope, but that's entirely my fault for exaggerating their impact in my own mind, not because they were over-hyped. And sure, the releases aren't bug free, but I'd say they're well above average for the industry and good even by indie developer standards (which tend to be better than the big companies IMO.) And after a few patches it's always rock solid.

Still, it's a scary thing to see people tell a developer they'll happily pay for a buggy product and then pay again when it's fixed. Nobody sets out to make crap. Nobody. But when paychecks are due and bills need to be paid and that current version isn't QUITE ready but it's at least playable... well if those comments don't at least start echoing in your ears a little bit you're a better man than I. It happens with the big companies... your Nascar example... but with the indie developers too. Stardock built an awesome reputation with their Galactic Civilizations series and quickly burned it to the ground with a turd called Elemental.

Not that I'm making ANY comparison here. OOTP 12 is good. They've all been good. But I do think a lot of the reasons for bad releases in the gaming industry in general is that gamers are willing to tolerate them, and buy again based on hope. That's just how it is.