The DH Controversy

[deejqu1k]

So last year a forum confirmed that batters in the DH spot have their ratings reduced 10-15% (based on an experiment someone did over many seasons).

Can we get a confirmation here? If so, why do you hate Frank Thomas?

In all seriousness, if this is something to consider it does kind of change strategies.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by deejqu1k

So last year a forum confirmed that batters in the DH spot have their ratings reduced 10-15% (based on an experiment someone did over many seasons).

Can we get a confirmation here? If so, why do you hate Frank Thomas?

In all seriousness, if this is something to consider it does kind of change strategies.

I would also expect that players who played a lot of DH like Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez also get a bump to their ratings that takes this into account...

[Matt Arnold]

The DH penalty is more like 3% (give or take). Whether that is enough to impact your strategy, that's your call.

[deejqu1k]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The DH penalty is more like 3% (give or take). Whether that is enough to impact your strategy, that's your call.

Whats the logic Matt? If the game is supposed to mirror real life, wouldnt it all be 1 to 1?

[CBeisbol]

The DH-Penalty is an actual thing
https://mglbaseball.com/2013/12/09/p...ies-revisited/

We found a similar situation with designated hitters. However, their penalty was around half that of a pinch hitter, or 17 points (5%) of wOBA. Similar to the pinch hitter, the most likely explanation for this is that the DH is not as physically (and perhaps mentally) prepared for each PA as a player who is constantly engaged in the game. As well, the DH may be slightly injured or tired, especially if he is normally a position player. It makes sense that the DH penalty would be less than the PH penalty, as the DH is more involved in a game than a PH. Pinch hitting is often considered “the hardest job in baseball.” The numbers suggest that that is true. Interestingly, we found a small “DH skill” such that different players seem to have more or less of a true DH penalty.

I assume that's why OOTP appears to have included it.

Hopefully, they have also made some adjustment for players who spent a significant portion of their careers at DH. If not, those players are being double penalized.

[getalife1798]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The DH penalty is more like 3% (give or take). Whether that is enough to impact your strategy, that's your call.

Never saw this or heard of this...

Does this affect both seasons and tournaments? I would assume so.

[noragar]

I don't know what kind of strategy you could use to get around this. Put the Pitcher in the lineup instead of using a DH? Put a worse hitter at DH so he's not penalized as much? I'd still rather have a .300 hitter who loses 3% down to .291 than a .200 hitter who would 'only' drop to .194.

I guess if you have two players with identical defense and you're going to DH one of them, the put the worse hitter at DH. I wouldn't think it would come up enough to worry about though to maybe try to squeeze out one extra hit per season.

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by deejqu1k

So last year a forum confirmed that batters in the DH spot have their ratings reduced 10-15% (based on an experiment someone did over many seasons).

Can we get a confirmation here? If so, why do you hate Frank Thomas?

In all seriousness, if this is something to consider it does kind of change strategies.

Gotta be Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers & maybe a couple more teams if you wanna build a beast team....Talent not spread out well across player cards



How about this for changing strategies?

I can imagine getting a game together like this is so much work that most of us couldn'nt even imagine the work it takes. With that said & so much effort put into penalizing a DH & PH when DH are now being voted into HOF as DH's that there is so little effort to get position players to play so many other bedsides their seem like a huge priority. I mean I have a team with just White Sox players, but I just can't get over the fact that Jose Abreu can be trained at 2nd & 3rd base (LMAO) & Andrew Vaughn at 2nd, 3rd base, LF, RF. It's so disheartening when you play teams where Ozzie Smith is over 100 on every infield position along with other HOF players trained all over the place too when in fact Ozzie Smith NEVER played any other position in his career beside Shortstop. & and the other position can be trained at greater abilities than original.There are hundreds if not thousands of other intances such as players who have actually played other positions CAN'T be trained in any other position besides what card is listed as. I know this is not what this post was about but it's very relatetable

[kq76]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Hopefully, they have also made some adjustment for players who spent a significant portion of their careers at DH. If not, those players are being double penalized.

Exactly what I was thinking. Edgar Martinez and David Ortiz got their stats and ratings largely based off of playing DH so they shouldn't take this hit.

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

I have a team with just White Sox players, but I just can't get over the fact that Jose Abreu can be trained at 2nd & 3rd base (LMAO) & Andrew Vaughn at 2nd, 3rd base, LF, RF. It's so disheartening when you play teams where Ozzie Smith is over 100 on every infield position along with other HOF players trained all over the place too when in fact Ozzie Smith NEVER played any other position in his career beside Shortstop. & and the other position can be trained at greater abilities than original.There are hundreds if not thousands of other intances such as players who have actually played other positions CAN'T be trained in any other position besides what card is listed as.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of it either. If it's someone like Jose Oquendo who actually did play every position, then fine, but to see players who never played these other positions be playing them in PT irritates me. I'd rather training be disabled entirely in PT and if necessary we just add some defensive position to the players who need it.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The DH penalty is more like 3% (give or take). Whether that is enough to impact your strategy, that's your call.

Just a suggestion but shouldn't players be able to train up as a DH then the same way they can train up at different defensive positions? And with a high enough DH rating negate part or all of that penalty?

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Just a suggestion but shouldn't players be able to train up as a DH then the same way they can train up at different defensive positions? And with a high enough DH rating negate part or all of that penalty?

You don't "train-up" to be a DH. The reason your a DH in the first place is because you can't do anything else but hit.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

You don't "train-up" to be a DH. The reason your a DH in the first place is because you can't do anything else but hit.

If there's nothing to it, then why have a penalty in the first place?

You have to get used to a different game pace and used to coming in to hit after sitting on the bench for most of the game. You're kind of like a pinch hitter that gets used a few times, it takes a different approach to be successful that way. Learning how to maximize your hitting in that role would be what you're training up in.

[Lemandria]

I see no controversy. Enjoy your free not-a-pitcher lineup spot, 97% of a hitter is still far better than 10%.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Lemandria

I see no controversy. Enjoy your free not-a-pitcher lineup spot, 97% of a hitter is still far better than 10%.

There could be an option in Settings to choose to be in non-DH leagues, and I think it would appeal to a decent number of people.

This discussion isn't about having the DH or not having it, at all. It's about why a hitter should get penalized for DH'ing, especially if they do it for a long time and get used to being a DH.

[Syd Thrift]

Because studies have shown that in real life hitters suffer a small penalty when they DH. OOTP is made to try to mirror real life. It’s not that hard to grasp.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Because studies have shown that in real life hitters suffer a small penalty when they DH. OOTP is made to try to mirror real life. It’s not that hard to grasp.

Link please.

Do they ever overcome it with time at the DH slot?

And there are some players who due to age or injury wouldn't be playing baseball if not for the DH. Their production there is 100% better than it could be anywhere else.

[halfbutt]

I can see this making sense in the case of a regular position player getting put in the lineup as a DH. In the case of guys like Edgar and Big Papi, it seems kind of silly. Both of those guys mastered the art of preparation. Did Edgar's stats get a .03% reduction when he entered the HOF?

I like the train at the position solution. Players trained as DH should not be penalized for something that they excel at.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Link please.

Literally scroll up 4 posts.

[ThinkingDog]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Because studies have shown that in real life hitters suffer a small penalty when they DH. OOTP is made to try to mirror real life. It’s not that hard to grasp.

I grasp & accept the DH hit just fine...but the "mirror real" argument loses water for me when you see a lot of players being allowed via training to play out of 'real life' positions. Arguably, one can also add all-SP bullpens and nerf parks as areas where "real life' gets distorted.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by ThinkingDog

I grasp & accept the DH hit just fine...but the "mirror real" argument loses water for me when you see a lot of players being allowed via training to play out of 'real life' positions. Arguably, one can also add all-SP bullpens and nerf parks as areas where "real life' gets distorted.

Starters move into and out of relief pretty regularly IRL and the game has a mechanic for how they do so, and if you think a starter will generally be just as effective in relief, I’m afraid you’re mistaken. OOTP also models how players who play more demanding positions IRL can move down the defensive spectrum to less demanding ones without much of a drop-off. If anything the only place where PT is being “unrealistic” is that the only way you can train those guys up is by playing them in games (whereas in OOTP you can do so by playing them therein spring training or by sending them down to the minors).

PT is based on OOTP. If you don’t understand how the first one works, play the second.