Data update only for 26

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I recently learned Gary Grigsby is making ballpark art. Maybe he knows enough about baseball to make the game work. He knows more about game design than everyone who has ever worked at OOTP combined.

Grigsby is amazing at exhaustively detailed wargames* but his GUI design skills leave much to be desired. No one will ever accuse War in the Pacific of having a great interface, for example. For the longest time his games kept left-aligning columns of numbers, a very basic design mistake.

*With one curious oversight; see below.


While Grigsby is well-known for high detail in wargames, both of his more recent efforts, War in the West and War in the East 2, suffer from an odd lack of detail in one area. The two games are fantastically detailed in terms of infantry weapons, mortars, artillery, tanks, flak guns, aircraft, unit structures, orders of battle, etc., but in terms of air-dropped ordnance, e.g. bombs and rockets, the games are decidedly undetailed. (Indeed, one class of bomb is missing entirely: fragmentation bombs. This is despite the fact that fragmentation bombs were one of the most used weapons against enemy troops and formations during the war.) The latter game is particularly egregious in that it uses genericized bombs -- if the game had used genericized tanks Grigsby would have been rightly pilloried for it.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time pouring over period ordnance manuals in an effort to bring bombs up to the same level of detail as the other weapons in the games, even to the point of correcting for the different types of explosive fills. When I finally get this done I'm going to post it over at the Matrix Games forums in the hopes it gets incorporated into the games, or at least used in any future WWII game.


Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled thread discussion . . .

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Brad K

That's a wonderful post Syd.

Summary: OOTP is so far ahead of the competition that I can tell you to buy another game without any fear you will. Due to it's superiority, no changes in OOTP are necessary for it to remain number one.

What you've presented here is an argument in favor of data only updates until the competition starts to close the gap.

No, it’s an argument to play Strat or Diamond Mind if you want to do single season sims. There’s no argument for the dev team to do “data only updates” because quite frankly there is nothing new the dev team does with the data except update algorithms. I feel like there other, missing reasons why you’re posting here and not going out and buying Strat…

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

No, it’s an argument to play Strat or Diamond Mind if you want to do single season sims. There’s no argument for the dev team to do “data only updates” because quite frankly there is nothing new the dev team does with the data except update algorithms. I feel like there other, missing reasons why you’re posting here and not going out and buying Strat…

I don't play single seasons. Where did you get that idea? Or are you just pulling it out of the air for argumentative purposes?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Grigsby is amazing at exhaustively detailed wargames* but his GUI design skills leave much to be desired. No one will ever accuse War in the Pacific of having a great interface, for example. For the longest time his games kept left-aligning columns of numbers, a very basic design mistake.

*With one curious oversight; see below.


While Grigsby is well-known for high detail in wargames, both of his more recent efforts, War in the West and War in the East 2, suffer from an odd lack of detail in one area. The two games are fantastically detailed in terms of infantry weapons, mortars, artillery, tanks, flak guns, aircraft, unit structures, orders of battle, etc., but in terms of air-dropped ordnance, e.g. bombs and rockets, the games are decidedly undetailed. (Indeed, one class of bomb is missing entirely: fragmentation bombs. This is despite the fact that fragmentation bombs were one of the most used weapons against enemy troops and formations during the war.) The latter game is particularly egregious in that it uses genericized bombs -- if the game had used genericized tanks Grigsby would have been rightly pilloried for it.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time pouring over period ordnance manuals in an effort to bring bombs up to the same level of detail as the other weapons in the games, even to the point of correcting for the different types of explosive fills. When I finally get this done I'm going to post it over at the Matrix Games forums in the hopes it gets incorporated into the games, or at least used in any future WWII game.


Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled thread discussion . . .

You're not addressed any of the points I've raised. Well, you know, when the facts are against you, change the subject.... or call the poster a troll.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I don't play single seasons. Where did you get that idea? Or are you just pulling it out of the air for argumentative purposes?

All of your arguments are for things that are useful only for single season play: this notion that LTMs shouldn’t be a thing, for example, or that statistical outliers for single season play shouldn’t be smoothed down. Again, you’ve repeatedly refused to state the whys here and as such I suspect missing reasons.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Brad K

You're not addressed any of the points I've raised.

I refuted your claim that Grigsby is a great game designer. He's not -- within certain areas. (Within other areas, of course, he's outstanding.)

The rest was in case there were any Grigsby wargame fans here. They might be interested to know that despite their overall detail the games do have some data shortcomings.

Originally Posted by Brad K

Well, you know, when the facts are against you, change the subject.... or call the poster a troll.

Not my style. If I find a poster annoying I'll either (1) stop replying to them, or (2) put them on Ignore if I don't want to even see their posts.

YMMV.

[Brad K]

LOL at the idea people who play single seasons with real players don't matter. The things some people let slip.

Anyway, don't yins think I've forgotten about you. I'll be gone for a few days or a few weeks or whatever due to Hurricane Milton.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Brad K

LOL at the idea people who play single seasons with real players don't matter. The things some people let slip.

Anyway, don't yins think I've forgotten about you. I'll be gone for a few days or a few weeks or whatever due to Hurricane Milton.

You could spend that time coming up with some kind of answer to the question I posed: what on earth do you think a “data only update” would accomplish?

Also, try not to play straw men. I never said that single season replayers “don’t matter”. They absolutely do matter. There are a couple of really great games out there for those kinds of players. Action PC Baseball is a third game. OOTP is not trying to fill that particular niche and no amount of obfuscation and demagoguery on your part is going to change that.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Brad K

If you didn't consider it an insult you wouldn't have used it to address my post. It's not inappropriate to the mods, at least when directed to me, however my in kind response was deleted and I got a strike.

As I stated before, you had no viable response and so tossed out what you thought was an insult. And then you got protected from an in kind response. LOL.

Why is it an insult?

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
man crush
noun informal
an intense and typically non-sexual liking or admiration felt by one man for another.
"the actor confesses to having a man crush on Clooney"
a man who is the object of another's intense liking or admiration.
"he was one of my man crushes"

I have a man crush on Matt Stafford and how he plays quarterback and throws a football. If I were to start three sentences pertaining to Stafford playing football with
"Matt Stafford does x"
"Matt Stafford does y"
"Matt Stafford does z"
and you were to say about me, "looks like you have a man crush on Matt Stafford" I would say "you're right".

I made the most viable response of anyone in this thread. There is not going to be a data update only for v26. Short, sweet, and to the point.

And the second most viable post in this thread, IMHO, is also mine. IE Grigsby has the same 12% negative grade as OOTP 25. Of course you ignored that and didn't explain how that could be, when "He knows more about game design than everyone who has ever worked at OOTP combined."

[Brad K]

.

[Brad K]

Throw out a little meat and the eagles show up.

Anyway, the proper response to hurricane coming was "hope everything turns out OK for you", not some more trolling.

[Scoman]

Somebody needs to close this thread and put it out of its misery.