Logos: Getting Started 101

endgame · 03-02-2005, 12:54 PM

I may just be kidding myself, but I'm thinking I'd like to have a hand in learning to create the logos for the new fictional league I've been working on. I think I can grasp the basics once I get a handle on some fundamentals. I know, that probably means reading the manual.

In any event, I've recently acquired Adobe's Photoshop Elements 2.0 and hope it will serve adequately to accomplish my aims. I even bought a couple of tutorial books (one's even for Dummies!) to assist my efforts.

If anyone would be willing to give me a few initial pointers or guidelines on how the process unfolds, I'd be grateful. One of the main obstacles I've encountered as I've just scratched the surface of this endeavor is actually finding materials and images to secure for use or alteration. I've Googled clipart and logos, and there are a few images that may ultimately be suitable, but they're really not of the variety I see most of you implementing here. Not that I'm trying to emulate any of your wonderful styles, if anything I'd like to discover my own, but most existing images I locate through web searches seem to land on both ends of the continuum: either bland/simple and business-like presentations or rough-hewn clipart creations.

So....baby steps. Going to spend some time working with the software and try to become familiar with its layers - so to speak - and after what I'm guessing is a few weeks make the jump into creation itself. What with the historically excellent support this forum has offered its constituents, I'll remain hopeful of some degree of success and satisfaction. If I can produce half of the quality so many of you demonstrate, I'll be content with the effort I'll endure.

Appreciate your ongoing contributions and thanks in advance for any and all comments and advice.

Edit: ... and I am surgically searching and reviewing the Logo forum for earlier advice and suggestions passed down from the existing Masters like Cuss, LGO, Treches ah so many. AND I may make another trip to the book/software store today! Historically, I've been more the language artist while my wife is the collector of both fonts and pics in her many creative visual pursuits. Maybe I need to raid her disk storage space. hehe

littlechris1977 · 03-02-2005, 01:55 PM

Some good places to look for logos that can be manipulated for your own use is http://www.logoserver.com and http://www.logoshak.com. There are a ton of logos that you can use and change or even get ideas from.

Bobble · 03-02-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm not familiar with the software you're using but if it's got layers, use them liberally. I put basically everything that can be on seperate layers. Then I frequently make duplicates of a particular layer when I'm about to make a significant change.

Example: You might have your background color on one layer. Say you're doing a raised border around the edge of the logo -- that's on another layer. You've got a picture of an emu -- that's a layer. You've got your team name - that's a layer. If you're going to try to make your team name circle around the emu, duplicate the layer and try it with the copy. That way, even if you get several steps into it so you don't know how many "undo"s to do, you can still get back to the original.

Cardinal Rule · 03-02-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobble

I'm not familiar with the software you're using but if it's got layers, use them liberally. I put basically everything that can be on seperate layers. Then I frequently make duplicates of a particular layer when I'm about to make a significant change.

Example: You might have your background color on one layer. Say you're doing a raised border around the edge of the logo -- that's on another layer. You've got a picture of an emu -- that's a layer. You've got your team name - that's a layer. If you're going to try to make your team name circle around the emu, duplicate the layer and try it with the copy. That way, even if you get several steps into it so you don't know how many "undo"s to do, you can still get back to the original.

Excellent excellent advice that I had to learn the hard way!

Another thing that's been a challenge for me is to get colors that mesh well together. There are some websites out there that can give you help on selecting good contrasting and complementing colors if you have a color that you want to start with. Google search 'online color selection tool' and I think you'll find some options.

Cuss · 03-02-2005, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

Excellent excellent advice that I had to learn the hard way!

Another thing that's been a challenge for me is to get colors that mesh well together. There are some websites out there that can give you help on selecting good contrasting and complementing colors if you have a color that you want to start with. Google search 'online color selection tool' and I think you'll find some options.

http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html

gmo · 03-02-2005, 06:02 PM

Besides what has been said so far, be patient and know you are going to have some failures in your efforts, but simply enjoy the process - that has worked for me.

endgame · 03-02-2005, 10:37 PM

Thanks for all of the initial input. Will be spending what time I can afford getting very familiar with the formats of the software. The spontaneous trip out this afternoon resulted in my picking up PSP9. I know, I already have Elements 2.0 but after reading a bit more about capabilities it "seems" like the vector drawing capability of PSP9 may offer up a yet another avenue of creative opportunity. Hell, I don't know enough yet to know if that means anything of real value or not -- or whether I just plain enjoy wasting money

, but between the two programs I'm certain there must be some gaps I will be able to fill I might not have otherwise. Besides, it had a rebate. hehe

Anyway, going to put the nose to the manuals for awhile and hope I have the raw grey matter materials to soak it up. Really do appreciate the quality of the artists in this forum (as well as the logistic artists in Mods proper) for the generous time afforded the rest of us by sharing your talents. That includes you too Eugene, while not yet - but soon probably - a designer, your keen critical eye is a necessary element that always seeks to improve what appears to be beyond improvement.

Thanks guys. Going into the catacombs now for what will probably be a long, long stay -- along with the more-than-occasional "can you help me with....?" Promise I'll try to minimize those occurences. And yes, gmo -- a little joy would be a welcome, if unexpected, find along the way.

Until then...

endgame · 03-02-2005, 10:46 PM

+1

Call me superstitious. Or proactive.

Eugene Church · 03-03-2005, 10:32 AM

I can't wait to "tear your creations apart".

Jaffe151 · 03-03-2005, 12:55 PM

Actually, you should get Photoshop in replace of PSP9

Ktulu · 03-03-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Actually, you should get Photoshop in replace of PSP9

For starting out I would say that Paint Shop Pro is much easier to use/learn.

endgame · 03-03-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktulu

For starting out I would say that Paint Shop Pro is much easier to use/learn.

I did begin some early experimentation with Elements 2.0, but it was awfully slow going - not only my learning curve, but the program itself isn't extremely responsive while processing some changes. The other factor I alluded to that caught my eye was (I can't remember exactly who - maybe LGO?) indicated that Elements wasn't as friendly wrapping text around a circle - which I'd like to ultimately be able to do easily.

I'm figuring a great deal of experimentation with both and if it comes to the point where I'm educated enough to actually determine what a logo needs to drive it to that 'acceptable' level then one or the other program should offer the option I'd be looking for at that point in time. But again, I'm probably being way too optimistic at such an early stage of my own development.

Headed back to the search function.

Thanks again.

Le Grande Orange · 03-03-2005, 02:21 PM

For logos, I'd recommend a vector-based drawing program more than a pixel-based photo-editing program.

This is not to say that the effects a photo-editing program like Photoshop can do are not useful and interesting, because certainly they are, it's just that I think a vector-based drawing program like Adobe Illustrator or CorelDRAW is more flexible and better suited to the task of creating logos. They also have the advantage of being resolution independent, meaning you can scale your finished logo to any size you want without losing any quality. In a photo-editing program, you're limited to whatever resolution you start with, unless you want to take an image quality hit in making it larger.

The other thing I recommend is to print lots of real-world examples of logos you personally find interesting, either in the overall design or in some specific elements of the design. I printed out some 30 pages of actual team logos, with around 6-8 per page, and I find going through those to look for ideas and concepts very helpful.

endgame · 03-03-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

For logos, I'd recommend a vector-based drawing program more than a pixel-based photo-editing program.

A great help as always LGO. I don't mean to drive this thread toward software comparisons, but when I examined PSP9 to evaluate whether I wanted to add it to my Adobe offering, the fact that it contained a section on vector-based drawing is what caught my eye. I don't find any reference to that in the Adobe manual, but then again I'm still just getting started. Appreciate all your input.

Cuss · 03-03-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

A great help as always LGO. I don't mean to drive this thread toward software comparisons, but when I examined PSP9 to evaluate whether I wanted to add it to my Adobe offering, the fact that it contained a section on vector-based drawing is what caught my eye. I don't find any reference to that in the Adobe manual, but then again I'm still just getting started. Appreciate all your input.

Photoshop has some very nice vector tools as well. Fireworks, freehand, flash all have very good drawing tools too along with what LGO mentioned in Corel. Personally I think many programs will do the work as long as the user is comfortable and efficient with the tools he or she is using and has a clear plan before starting.

endgame · 03-06-2005, 02:50 AM

About three days into the introductions; effectively 4-5 hours of actual study time and I'm astounded at the sheer complexity of the graphics world. My admiration for you creators has already increased a hundred fold. Granted, I'm an individual who tends to make things more complicated than they probably have to be, but still this arena begs to open the pandora's box of the imagination and that alone unleashes a plethora of possibilities. I admitted my nOOb orientation to this process, but even I couldn't have imagined I'd sit for an hour mixing wet paint on a palette experimenting with colors and brushstrokes - and even had a little fun with it. Forget the fact that, given what I've seen, I'm probably months away from any quality work -- this was a sudden reaquaintance with the notion that the nature of results are directly related to the nature of the ambition and effort invested toward achieving them.

Don't mean to derail this into a Logo-blog, but just wanted to acknowledge - now that I've taken even the smallest steps into the trenches - my enhanced appreciation for the tremendous talents that exist here in the forum. Salutes to all of you. I'm thinking now, realistically, I should be able to create my retirement logo by the time I get the feel for these concepts.

Wow.

Le Grande Orange · 03-06-2005, 03:29 AM

Certainly, there are a lot of possibilites available in the software. But don't lose sight of the fact that a logo need not be particularly fancy.

Think of the logos used by the Chicago Cubs, San Francisco Giants, Minnesota Twins, or Oakland Athletics. None of these are complicated; in fact, they're all fairly simple and straightforward in their designs, and yet these are all real-world team logos.

Indeed, sometimes a simple, clean design is better than something with lots of flourishes or effects.

So don't let yourself get too overwhelmed by the possibilities. Start with the basic set of tools and get comfortable being able to make nice designs that are reasonably uncomplicated. You can always add more effects and design complexity later on as you acquire more knowledge and experience.

endgame · 03-06-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So don't let yourself get too overwhelmed by the possibilities. Start with the basic set of tools and get comfortable being able to make nice designs that are reasonably uncomplicated. You can always add more effects and design complexity later on as you acquire more knowledge and experience.

Thanks for the response. You're right. It's all about basics. Quick question if I might, what size working canvas might work best with the basic logo layouts before resizing to 150x150? Or will that vary with the image?

Le Grande Orange · 03-06-2005, 03:15 PM

There's no set answer there, I think it'll depend on what you find comfortable. I would suggest though to make it even multiples of the final 150x150 size, so that you're reducing by even amounts.

In other words, if it's 300x300 you work with, that means OOTP's final size is 50% of your working size. If you work at 600x600, then OOTP's size is 25% of your working size. Reducing by these multiples is better than 33% or 67% or something like that.

Twice OOTP's size, or 300x300 is probably fine for simpler logo designs; for more complex designs the 600x600 canvas is likely better.

endgame · 03-06-2005, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Twice OOTP's size, or 300x300 is probably fine for simpler logo designs; for more complex designs the 600x600 canvas is likely better.

Thanks Le Grande. Makes sense and I am staying to the simpler paths for now.
Appreciate your quick response. Back to the books for me.

03-02-2005, 12:54 PM	#1
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	Logos: Getting Started 101 I may just be kidding myself, but I'm thinking I'd like to have a hand in learning to create the logos for the new fictional league I've been working on. I think I can grasp the basics once I get a handle on some fundamentals. I know, that probably means reading the manual. In any event, I've recently acquired Adobe's Photoshop Elements 2.0 and hope it will serve adequately to accomplish my aims. I even bought a couple of tutorial books (one's even for Dummies!) to assist my efforts. If anyone would be willing to give me a few initial pointers or guidelines on how the process unfolds, I'd be grateful. One of the main obstacles I've encountered as I've just scratched the surface of this endeavor is actually finding materials and images to secure for use or alteration. I've Googled clipart and logos, and there are a few images that may ultimately be suitable, but they're really not of the variety I see most of you implementing here. Not that I'm trying to emulate any of your wonderful styles, if anything I'd like to discover my own, but most existing images I locate through web searches seem to land on both ends of the continuum: either bland/simple and business-like presentations or rough-hewn clipart creations. So....baby steps. Going to spend some time working with the software and try to become familiar with its layers - so to speak - and after what I'm guessing is a few weeks make the jump into creation itself. What with the historically excellent support this forum has offered its constituents, I'll remain hopeful of some degree of success and satisfaction. If I can produce half of the quality so many of you demonstrate, I'll be content with the effort I'll endure. Appreciate your ongoing contributions and thanks in advance for any and all comments and advice. Edit: ... and I am surgically searching and reviewing the Logo forum for earlier advice and suggestions passed down from the existing Masters like Cuss, LGO, Treches ah so many. AND I may make another trip to the book/software store today! Historically, I've been more the language artist while my wife is the collector of both fonts and pics in her many creative visual pursuits. Maybe I need to raid her disk storage space. hehe __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________ Last edited by endgame; 03-02-2005 at 01:51 PM. Reason: So you know I'm not looking for shortcuts.

03-02-2005, 01:55 PM	#2
littlechris1977 Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 447	Some good places to look for logos that can be manipulated for your own use is http://www.logoserver.com and http://www.logoshak.com. There are a ton of logos that you can use and change or even get ideas from. __________________ I can do all things... Philippians 4:13

03-02-2005, 04:25 PM	#3
Bobble Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: High and outside Posts: 4,033	I'm not familiar with the software you're using but if it's got layers, use them liberally. I put basically everything that can be on seperate layers. Then I frequently make duplicates of a particular layer when I'm about to make a significant change. Example: You might have your background color on one layer. Say you're doing a raised border around the edge of the logo -- that's on another layer. You've got a picture of an emu -- that's a layer. You've got your team name - that's a layer. If you're going to try to make your team name circle around the emu, duplicate the layer and try it with the copy. That way, even if you get several steps into it so you don't know how many "undo"s to do, you can still get back to the original. __________________

03-02-2005, 10:37 PM	#7
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	Thanks for all of the initial input. Will be spending what time I can afford getting very familiar with the formats of the software. The spontaneous trip out this afternoon resulted in my picking up PSP9. I know, I already have Elements 2.0 but after reading a bit more about capabilities it "seems" like the vector drawing capability of PSP9 may offer up a yet another avenue of creative opportunity. Hell, I don't know enough yet to know if that means anything of real value or not -- or whether I just plain enjoy wasting money , but between the two programs I'm certain there must be some gaps I will be able to fill I might not have otherwise. Besides, it had a rebate. hehe Anyway, going to put the nose to the manuals for awhile and hope I have the raw grey matter materials to soak it up. Really do appreciate the quality of the artists in this forum (as well as the logistic artists in Mods proper) for the generous time afforded the rest of us by sharing your talents. That includes you too Eugene, while not yet - but soon probably - a designer, your keen critical eye is a necessary element that always seeks to improve what appears to be beyond improvement. Thanks guys. Going into the catacombs now for what will probably be a long, long stay -- along with the more-than-occasional "can you help me with....?" Promise I'll try to minimize those occurences. And yes, gmo -- a little joy would be a welcome, if unexpected, find along the way. Until then... __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________ Last edited by endgame; 03-02-2005 at 10:38 PM.

03-02-2005, 10:46 PM	#8
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	+1 Call me superstitious. Or proactive. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

03-02-2005, 06:02 PM	#6
gmo Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 3,420	Besides what has been said so far, be patient and know you are going to have some failures in your efforts, but simply enjoy the process - that has worked for me.

03-03-2005, 10:32 AM	#9
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,205	I can't wait to "tear your creations apart".

03-03-2005, 12:55 PM	#10
Jaffe151 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: San Marcos, Tx Posts: 123	Actually, you should get Photoshop in replace of PSP9

03-03-2005, 02:21 PM	#13
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	For logos, I'd recommend a vector-based drawing program more than a pixel-based photo-editing program. This is not to say that the effects a photo-editing program like Photoshop can do are not useful and interesting, because certainly they are, it's just that I think a vector-based drawing program like Adobe Illustrator or CorelDRAW is more flexible and better suited to the task of creating logos. They also have the advantage of being resolution independent, meaning you can scale your finished logo to any size you want without losing any quality. In a photo-editing program, you're limited to whatever resolution you start with, unless you want to take an image quality hit in making it larger. The other thing I recommend is to print lots of real-world examples of logos you personally find interesting, either in the overall design or in some specific elements of the design. I printed out some 30 pages of actual team logos, with around 6-8 per page, and I find going through those to look for ideas and concepts very helpful.

03-06-2005, 02:50 AM	#16
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	About three days into the introductions; effectively 4-5 hours of actual study time and I'm astounded at the sheer complexity of the graphics world. My admiration for you creators has already increased a hundred fold. Granted, I'm an individual who tends to make things more complicated than they probably have to be, but still this arena begs to open the pandora's box of the imagination and that alone unleashes a plethora of possibilities. I admitted my nOOb orientation to this process, but even I couldn't have imagined I'd sit for an hour mixing wet paint on a palette experimenting with colors and brushstrokes - and even had a little fun with it. Forget the fact that, given what I've seen, I'm probably months away from any quality work -- this was a sudden reaquaintance with the notion that the nature of results are directly related to the nature of the ambition and effort invested toward achieving them. Don't mean to derail this into a Logo-blog, but just wanted to acknowledge - now that I've taken even the smallest steps into the trenches - my enhanced appreciation for the tremendous talents that exist here in the forum. Salutes to all of you. I'm thinking now, realistically, I should be able to create my retirement logo by the time I get the feel for these concepts. Wow. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

03-06-2005, 03:29 AM	#17
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	Certainly, there are a lot of possibilites available in the software. But don't lose sight of the fact that a logo need not be particularly fancy. Think of the logos used by the Chicago Cubs, San Francisco Giants, Minnesota Twins, or Oakland Athletics. None of these are complicated; in fact, they're all fairly simple and straightforward in their designs, and yet these are all real-world team logos. Indeed, sometimes a simple, clean design is better than something with lots of flourishes or effects. So don't let yourself get too overwhelmed by the possibilities. Start with the basic set of tools and get comfortable being able to make nice designs that are reasonably uncomplicated. You can always add more effects and design complexity later on as you acquire more knowledge and experience.

03-06-2005, 03:15 PM	#19
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	There's no set answer there, I think it'll depend on what you find comfortable. I would suggest though to make it even multiples of the final 150x150 size, so that you're reducing by even amounts. In other words, if it's 300x300 you work with, that means OOTP's final size is 50% of your working size. If you work at 600x600, then OOTP's size is 25% of your working size. Reducing by these multiples is better than 33% or 67% or something like that. Twice OOTP's size, or 300x300 is probably fine for simpler logo designs; for more complex designs the 600x600 canvas is likely better.