More Mets talk

lgkeeper · 01-11-2005, 12:26 PM

Because I know you just can't get enough of it

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/r...CMP=ILC-INHEAD

ESPN.com is reporting that the Rangers believe that the Mets will sign Delgado. They also say that Cameron may be traded (I thought he was going to play RF???).

So, let's review.

Let's say the Mets keep Cameron and sign Delgado. As I said in an earlier post, here is what a hypothetical lineup would be:

1. Reyes SS
2. Wright 3B
3. Beltran CF
4. Piazza C
5. Delgado 1B
6. Floyd LF
7. Cameron RF
8. Matsui 2B

and their rotation:

1. Martinez
2. Benson
3. Glavine
4. Trachsel
5. Zambrano

And some of you say they still won't contend? Which NL team (other than StL) has a lineup and a rotation that can compare to that?

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 12:29 PM

I think the Phillies, the Braves, and the Mets are not very far from each other on paper right now. With Delgado, the scale will be tipped, and the Mets should be considered the favorite.

Operation Shutdown · 01-11-2005, 12:51 PM

A good lineup yes, but their pitching rotation is a little suspect. Glavine is getting older, who knows about Martinez, and as a Pirates fan I can say that if you are counting on Benson as your #2 starter, your rotation has a lot of problems. This guy has yet to prove himself for a complete season, and somehow he managed a raise. I want this guy's agent working for me.

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operation Shutdown

A good lineup yes, but their pitching rotation is a little suspect. Glavine is getting older, who knows about Martinez, and as a Pirates fan I can say that if you are counting on Benson as your #2 starter, your rotation has a lot of problems. This guy has yet to prove himself for a complete season, and somehow he managed a raise. I want this guy's agent working for me.

I think the situation here is not that the Mets are great, but the other teams aren't better.

Jason Moyer · 01-11-2005, 12:54 PM

I see no evidence that the Mets have improved enough to beat the Braves this season.

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I see no evidence that the Mets have improved enough to beat the Braves this season.

Pedro Martinez+Carlos Beltran+Carlos Delgado should be enough to overcome the 20 win difference in pyth. standings, while the Braves doesn't exactly improve.

Jason Moyer · 01-11-2005, 01:17 PM

I don't see how the 3 players they've added give them 60 win shares over the players they've replaced.

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 01:37 PM

No? How about these numbers:

Hidalgo .228/.296/.463
Philips .218/.298/.326

And Pedro is basically pushing the rotation down and replacing the 5th starter.

Beltran over Hidalgo can net them 7-8 wins, while Phillips was a negative and Delgado another 7-8 wins. Pedro can make up the rest.

Rasmuth · 01-11-2005, 01:45 PM

Couldn't the Met's play Victor Diaz in RF if they unload Cameron? He hit awfully well in his callup last season.

ctorg · 01-11-2005, 01:46 PM

The Mets are definitely better. If they get Delgado, they will improve further and have a legitimate shot at the division. But, even though I'm not one given to beliefs like this, there's just something about the Braves that makes them win every year. I don't know if the Mets are able to compete with them yet.

Plus, the Mets still haven't addressed the issue of their very bad bullpen.

Melo · 01-11-2005, 02:43 PM

Just about everyone has bullpen problems though. If the Mets get Delgado, they have to move ahead of the Braves on paper. That IS on paper. They looked dead last year and then got on a big time roll so I will never count them out.

lgkeeper · 01-11-2005, 03:07 PM

The Mets could trade Cameron for some bullpen help and have Diaz play RF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operation Shutdown
A good lineup yes, but their pitching rotation is a little suspect. Glavine is getting older, who knows about Martinez, and as a Pirates fan I can say that if you are counting on Benson as your #2 starter, your rotation has a lot of problems. This guy has yet to prove himself for a complete season, and somehow he managed a raise. I want this guy's agent working for me.

Peter Gammons, who's opinion I believe whole-heartedly, said the Mets now have the 3rd best rotation behind the Braves and Cubs. That's not exactly "suspect" in my opinion.

Jason Moyer · 01-11-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melo

Just about everyone has bullpen problems though. If the Mets get Delgado, they have to move ahead of the Braves on paper. That IS on paper. They looked dead last year and then got on a big time roll so I will never count them out.

If the Mets somehow manage to pick up 20 wins and the Braves stay exactly the same, the Mets would still finish 5 games behind the Braves.

Slackker · 01-11-2005, 03:19 PM

Well, first and foremost.. Piazza does not belong in front of Delgado. Both of them are aging pieces of crap that, as a Mets fan, I don't want to see on the field.

Ctorg hit on it, though. If the Mets played 6 inning games they'd be the favorite in the NL East. However, barring some sort of Godly weather interventions, that's not going to happen.

The Mets bullpen is arguably the worst in the National League, and easily the worst in the NL East. As for the lineup..

1. Reyes - Injury prone thus far in his career.
2. Matsui - One season in the majors.. lots of nagging injuries, bad defense, average offense.
3. Beltran - Overpaid, overhyped. Good, but not great.
4. Delgado - Also showing signs of age
5. Piazza - Declining quickly, and as we know.. very weak throwing catcher.
6. Cameron - Strikes out more than Bill Gates in high school.
7. Wright - No plate patience, thus #7 in the lineup. Maybe sixth. Unproven.
8. Floyd - Injury prone, and on the decline.

1. Pedro Martinez - Shoulder problems are a worry. 6-7 inning pitcher.
2. Tom Glavine - Aging, and can't beat the Braves.
3. Benson - Average starter. Barely. Hopefully Peterson can work a miracle.
4. Trachsel - Good for a #4, in my view. Only consistent Met lately.
5. Zambrano - Elbow problems, very sketchy control.

Bullpen:
Braden Looper - Hahha..
Mike DeJean - Do I even need to laugh at this one?
Jae Seo - Not the worst long reliever, comfortable with him.
Tyler Yates - Another long reliever? C'mon.
Aaron Heilman - Another.. long.. reliever? Actually no, not too long. He can't get anyone out.
Felix Heredia - Streaky pitcher. No confidence here whatsoever.
Matt Ginter - Another long reliever? Jeez.

Oh yeah, great team. Good job Omar.

Slackker · 01-11-2005, 03:20 PM

Added note.. trading Floyd would be much better than trading Cameron. Let Diaz play left, or right, or whichever Cameron doesn't want to play. Diaz would fit nicely in the #8 hole, and wouldn't complain because he's never proven he deserves anything more. Floyd, on the other hand, would likely cause a problem.

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

If the Mets somehow manage to pick up 20 wins and the Braves stay exactly the same, the Mets would still finish 5 games behind the Braves.

But if we believe pyth. records are better indicators, then they will be ahead.

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slackker

Well, first and foremost.. Piazza does not belong in front of Delgado. Both of them are aging pieces of crap that, as a Mets fan, I don't want to see on the field.

Ctorg hit on it, though. If the Mets played 6 inning games they'd be the favorite in the NL East. However, barring some sort of Godly weather interventions, that's not going to happen.

The Mets bullpen is arguably the worst in the National League, and easily the worst in the NL East. As for the lineup..

1. Reyes - Injury prone thus far in his career.
2. Matsui - One season in the majors.. lots of nagging injuries, bad defense, average offense.
3. Beltran - Overpaid, overhyped. Good, but not great.
4. Delgado - Also showing signs of age
5. Piazza - Declining quickly, and as we know.. very weak throwing catcher.
6. Cameron - Strikes out more than Bill Gates in high school.
7. Wright - No plate patience, thus #7 in the lineup. Maybe sixth. Unproven.
8. Floyd - Injury prone, and on the decline.

1. Pedro Martinez - Shoulder problems are a worry. 6-7 inning pitcher.
2. Tom Glavine - Aging, and can't beat the Braves.
3. Benson - Average starter. Barely. Hopefully Peterson can work a miracle.
4. Trachsel - Good for a #4, in my view. Only consistent Met lately.
5. Zambrano - Elbow problems, very sketchy control.

Bullpen:
Braden Looper - Hahha..
Mike DeJean - Do I even need to laugh at this one?
Jae Seo - Not the worst long reliever, comfortable with him.
Tyler Yates - Another long reliever? C'mon.
Aaron Heilman - Another.. long.. reliever? Actually no, not too long. He can't get anyone out.
Felix Heredia - Streaky pitcher. No confidence here whatsoever.
Matt Ginter - Another long reliever? Jeez.

Oh yeah, great team. Good job Omar.

Now please use the same list and point out their strengths instead of only pointing out the weakness.

No player is perfect, and this is not a good way to evaluate a team.

Skipaway · 01-11-2005, 03:31 PM

Bottom line, the Mets signed the best position player free agent out there, and the best pitcher free agent out there. You can't have a better offseason than they did. The team is still far from perfect or dominant, but the division doesn't have a run away winner right now.

rudel.dietrich · 01-11-2005, 03:36 PM

X factor is all of this is that we are still talking about the Mets

Slackker · 01-11-2005, 03:39 PM

First.. weaknesses are an excellent way to evaluate a team. The Yankees looked at their team and said "Hmm, we need a left handed ace. Lets get one.". Was that a horrible way to look at it? I guess so. The Cards basically said "Hey, our pitching sucks.. I wonder what's out there in the trade market." I guess that was stupid, too.

1. Reyes - Fast..
2. Matsui - Speaks fluent Japanese...
3. Beltran - Smart enough to take the biggest paycheck. Speedy, above average range.
4. Delgado - He has a lovely smile, and good power.
5. Piazza - Apparently isn't gay, not that there's anything wrong with that.
6. Cameron - Great fielder. (Hey, an actual plus!)
7. Wright - Had a good rookie year, has power.
8. Floyd - Excellent spectator. Really, that's all he's done the past couple years.

1. Pedro Martinez - Afro-Sheen day at Shea has a nice ring to it.
2. Tom Glavine - Has pitched pretty well, actually.. aside from against Atlanta. Just hasn't gotten run support.
3. Benson - His wife is hot.
4. Trachsel - Good for a #4, in my view. Only consistent Met lately. (Hey, this one didn't change)
5. Zambrano - Well, at least he's Victor Zambrano, and not Carlos (who is clearly better) -- last thing we'd need is three guys to call Carlos.

Bullpen:
Braden Looper - His name isn't Armando Benitez
Mike DeJean - I'm sorry, but I can't even think of something amusingly positive about Mike DeJean.
Jae Seo - I said I'm comfortable with him, damnit. That's a plus!
Tyler Yates - He.. uh.. still has potential, I guess.
Aaron Heilman - His name rolls off my tongue. Try it a few times. Let it flow. Aaaaron Heeiiilmaaan.
Felix Heredia - He might not make the majors roster. Definitely a plus.
Matt Ginter - Pitched reasonably well last season as a starter, only to be pulled way too early by Art Howe several times.

Is that better? I hope so.

01-11-2005, 12:26 PM	#1
lgkeeper All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: My front porch lookin' in Posts: 1,137	More Mets talk Because I know you just can't get enough of it http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/r...CMP=ILC-INHEAD ESPN.com is reporting that the Rangers believe that the Mets will sign Delgado. They also say that Cameron may be traded (I thought he was going to play RF???). So, let's review. Let's say the Mets keep Cameron and sign Delgado. As I said in an earlier post, here is what a hypothetical lineup would be: 1. Reyes SS 2. Wright 3B 3. Beltran CF 4. Piazza C 5. Delgado 1B 6. Floyd LF 7. Cameron RF 8. Matsui 2B and their rotation: 1. Martinez 2. Benson 3. Glavine 4. Trachsel 5. Zambrano And some of you say they still won't contend? Which NL team (other than StL) has a lineup and a rotation that can compare to that?

01-11-2005, 12:51 PM	#3
Operation Shutdown All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 912	A good lineup yes, but their pitching rotation is a little suspect. Glavine is getting older, who knows about Martinez, and as a Pirates fan I can say that if you are counting on Benson as your #2 starter, your rotation has a lot of problems. This guy has yet to prove himself for a complete season, and somehow he managed a raise. I want this guy's agent working for me. __________________ "And Shepherds we shall be, For thee, my Lord, for thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, Our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands. So we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti."

01-11-2005, 12:54 PM	#5
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	I see no evidence that the Mets have improved enough to beat the Braves this season. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

01-11-2005, 01:45 PM	#9
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	Couldn't the Met's play Victor Diaz in RF if they unload Cameron? He hit awfully well in his callup last season. __________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=250426

01-11-2005, 01:46 PM	#10
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	The Mets are definitely better. If they get Delgado, they will improve further and have a legitimate shot at the division. But, even though I'm not one given to beliefs like this, there's just something about the Braves that makes them win every year. I don't know if the Mets are able to compete with them yet. Plus, the Mets still haven't addressed the issue of their very bad bullpen. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

01-11-2005, 12:29 PM	#2
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	I think the Phillies, the Braves, and the Mets are not very far from each other on paper right now. With Delgado, the scale will be tipped, and the Mets should be considered the favorite. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

01-11-2005, 01:17 PM	#7
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	I don't see how the 3 players they've added give them 60 win shares over the players they've replaced. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

01-11-2005, 01:37 PM	#8
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	No? How about these numbers: Hidalgo .228/.296/.463 Philips .218/.298/.326 And Pedro is basically pushing the rotation down and replacing the 5th starter. Beltran over Hidalgo can net them 7-8 wins, while Phillips was a negative and Delgado another 7-8 wins. Pedro can make up the rest. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

01-11-2005, 02:43 PM	#11
Melo All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Where the baned reside Posts: 1,428	Just about everyone has bullpen problems though. If the Mets get Delgado, they have to move ahead of the Braves on paper. That IS on paper. They looked dead last year and then got on a big time roll so I will never count them out.

01-11-2005, 03:19 PM	#14
Slackker All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Connecticut Posts: 777	Well, first and foremost.. Piazza does not belong in front of Delgado. Both of them are aging pieces of crap that, as a Mets fan, I don't want to see on the field. Ctorg hit on it, though. If the Mets played 6 inning games they'd be the favorite in the NL East. However, barring some sort of Godly weather interventions, that's not going to happen. The Mets bullpen is arguably the worst in the National League, and easily the worst in the NL East. As for the lineup.. 1. Reyes - Injury prone thus far in his career. 2. Matsui - One season in the majors.. lots of nagging injuries, bad defense, average offense. 3. Beltran - Overpaid, overhyped. Good, but not great. 4. Delgado - Also showing signs of age 5. Piazza - Declining quickly, and as we know.. very weak throwing catcher. 6. Cameron - Strikes out more than Bill Gates in high school. 7. Wright - No plate patience, thus #7 in the lineup. Maybe sixth. Unproven. 8. Floyd - Injury prone, and on the decline. 1. Pedro Martinez - Shoulder problems are a worry. 6-7 inning pitcher. 2. Tom Glavine - Aging, and can't beat the Braves. 3. Benson - Average starter. Barely. Hopefully Peterson can work a miracle. 4. Trachsel - Good for a #4, in my view. Only consistent Met lately. 5. Zambrano - Elbow problems, very sketchy control. Bullpen: Braden Looper - Hahha.. Mike DeJean - Do I even need to laugh at this one? Jae Seo - Not the worst long reliever, comfortable with him. Tyler Yates - Another long reliever? C'mon. Aaron Heilman - Another.. long.. reliever? Actually no, not too long. He can't get anyone out. Felix Heredia - Streaky pitcher. No confidence here whatsoever. Matt Ginter - Another long reliever? Jeez. Oh yeah, great team. Good job Omar.

01-11-2005, 03:20 PM	#15
Slackker All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Connecticut Posts: 777	Added note.. trading Floyd would be much better than trading Cameron. Let Diaz play left, or right, or whichever Cameron doesn't want to play. Diaz would fit nicely in the #8 hole, and wouldn't complain because he's never proven he deserves anything more. Floyd, on the other hand, would likely cause a problem.

01-11-2005, 03:31 PM	#18
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Bottom line, the Mets signed the best position player free agent out there, and the best pitcher free agent out there. You can't have a better offseason than they did. The team is still far from perfect or dominant, but the division doesn't have a run away winner right now. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

01-11-2005, 03:36 PM	#19
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	X factor is all of this is that we are still talking about the Mets

01-11-2005, 03:39 PM	#20
Slackker All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Connecticut Posts: 777	First.. weaknesses are an excellent way to evaluate a team. The Yankees looked at their team and said "Hmm, we need a left handed ace. Lets get one.". Was that a horrible way to look at it? I guess so. The Cards basically said "Hey, our pitching sucks.. I wonder what's out there in the trade market." I guess that was stupid, too. 1. Reyes - Fast.. 2. Matsui - Speaks fluent Japanese... 3. Beltran - Smart enough to take the biggest paycheck. Speedy, above average range. 4. Delgado - He has a lovely smile, and good power. 5. Piazza - Apparently isn't gay, not that there's anything wrong with that. 6. Cameron - Great fielder. (Hey, an actual plus!) 7. Wright - Had a good rookie year, has power. 8. Floyd - Excellent spectator. Really, that's all he's done the past couple years. 1. Pedro Martinez - Afro-Sheen day at Shea has a nice ring to it. 2. Tom Glavine - Has pitched pretty well, actually.. aside from against Atlanta. Just hasn't gotten run support. 3. Benson - His wife is hot. 4. Trachsel - Good for a #4, in my view. Only consistent Met lately. (Hey, this one didn't change) 5. Zambrano - Well, at least he's Victor Zambrano, and not Carlos (who is clearly better) -- last thing we'd need is three guys to call Carlos. Bullpen: Braden Looper - His name isn't Armando Benitez Mike DeJean - I'm sorry, but I can't even think of something amusingly positive about Mike DeJean. Jae Seo - I said I'm comfortable with him, damnit. That's a plus! Tyler Yates - He.. uh.. still has potential, I guess. Aaron Heilman - His name rolls off my tongue. Try it a few times. Let it flow. Aaaaron Heeiiilmaaan. Felix Heredia - He might not make the majors roster. Definitely a plus. Matt Ginter - Pitched reasonably well last season as a starter, only to be pulled way too early by Art Howe several times. Is that better? I hope so.