New York and Arizona could strike deal without a 3rd team.

[benchwarmer]

This says the yankees are offering Vazquez and any prospect(s) to Arizona for the Big Unit. Looks like 'Zona's price tag is lowering a little for Unit?

[abailey3313]

It's only a matter of time, my friend.

[Arlie Rahn]

ESPN is reporting that one of two deals may be done:

Johnson for Vazquez, Brad Halsey, Abel Gomez, Melky Cabrera and about $12 million in cash.

OR

Johnson for Vazquez, Dioner Navarro, Eric Duncan and about $5 million in cash.

Can't say I'm overly thrilled with either deal given what LA had originally given. Still, it all depends on what Arizona does from that point on. If they do the first deal and get Vazquez plus $12 million, their salary level will be at $47 million (or $35 million if you count the cash). If they then go out and sign Burnitz or trade for a guy like Green, I think they make out better (and cheaper) with Vazquez, Burnitz/Green, Halsey, prospects and $12 million than if they got Penny, Green and Brazoban. In order for this deal to be a good one for Arizona, though, they would need one of the following to occur:

A. Vazquez legitimately wants to try and stay in Arizona
B. They have a deal with a third team to deal Vazquez for another nice starter and/or hitter.

[draven085]

I, for one, will never understand why there are so many teams willing to acquiesce to the Yankees' desires when it does little to improve their ballclub.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by draven085

I, for one, will never understand why there are so many teams willing to acquiesce to the Yankees' desires when it does little to improve their ballclub.

Did you just happen to forget Curt Schilling? The D-Backs asked the Yankees for Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano then dealt him to the Red Sox for crap. Sorry, but what did you say again?

As for the 2nd deal, it sounded from the NY Post article that the D-Backs might want to spin at least Navarro off to the Dodgers for Green.

[Arlie Rahn]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

Did you just happen to forget Curt Schilling? The D-Backs asked the Yankees for Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano then dealt him to the Red Sox for crap. Sorry, but what did you say again?

As for the 2nd deal, it sounded from the NY Post article that the D-Backs might want to spin at least Navarro off to the Dodgers for Green.

I can't see how this deal is a bad one for Arizona. If it goes as you just described, Arizona would go from getting Penny, Green and Brazoban to getting Vazquez, Green, Eric Duncan and $5 million. All for a 41-year old guy making $16 million with daily knee injections a year removed from a season where he went 6-8 with a 4.26 ERA. How does that deal not benefit Arizona?

[Jonzard]

Wake me when its done

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Arlie Rahn

I can't see how this deal is a bad one for Arizona. If it goes as you just described, Arizona would go from getting Penny, Green and Brazoban to getting Vazquez, Green, Eric Duncan and $5 million. All for a 41-year old guy making $16 million with daily knee injections a year removed from a season where he went 6-8 with a 4.26 ERA. How does that deal not benefit Arizona?

I hear ya. I'd MUCH rather them do the first one I figured they'd do something, but I can live with something that doesn't require Navarro and/or Duncan to be shipped out. Those are really the only marketable names they have in the minors.

Ah well. I kinda had my hopes up to see if Javy could break out of his funk next year. I should have known better then to think the Yankees would back down from this.

[draven085]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

Did you just happen to forget Curt Schilling? The D-Backs asked the Yankees for Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano then dealt him to the Red Sox for crap. Sorry, but what did you say again?

The Yankees had also screwed over the D-Backs by signing David Wells after he'd verbally agreed to a deal with Arizona. The Snakes were obviously paying them back a bit with their request for Schilling. Apparently you forgot about that.

Regardless, there always seems to be some team willing to bend a little bit to give the Yankees what they want. It makes no sense to me since I'm not in the habit of doing favors for people I'm competing with.

[Jonzard]

Originally Posted by draven085

there always seems to be some team willing to bend a little bit to give the Yankees what they want

Perhaps there is a little under the table "revenue sharing" if you get my drift

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by draven085

The Yankees had also screwed over the D-Backs by signing David Wells after he'd verbally agreed to a deal with Arizona. The Snakes were obviously paying them back a bit with their request for Schilling. Apparently you forgot about that.

The Yanks didnt screw them over, Wells did. As for teams bending over backwards, LA sure seemed to have a backbone.

Just trying to point out here that the Yankees don't always get the red carpet treatment. Plus, Johnson has already said he only wants to go to the Yankees so it's not like the D-Backs have much choice here. They either take what the Yanks can give, or they don't take anything at all. This isn't a normal trading situation. You didn't see OAK giving the Yanks preferential treatment when they dealt Hudson (although I still wonder what the heck the Yanks could have offered in that scenario). Before this deal, the last one that comes to mind is the trade for Aaron Boone and I hardly think that one was lopsided (1 AB not withstanding).

The Sox (well the Red version anyway) have had their fair share of "good" deals in the past too. I still remember Georgie being livid because the Expos took the Sox offer over the Yankees (I dont have a clue who they offered).

So please let me know exactly what you are referring too when you say other teams are willing to give in to the Yanks when it does little to help their ballclub.

[Sinclair]

Originally Posted by draven085

Regardless, there always seems to be some team willing to bend a little bit to give the Yankees what they want. It makes no sense to me since I'm not in the habit of doing favors for people I'm competing with.

Deal good for ARI. Bad for NYY. NYY bend to get what they want, here. Name last time someone bend for NYY. Weaver? Loaiza for Contreras? I don't recall.

[Anachronism]

I think this would be a great deal... the Yanks would receive a failing pitcher who might start more games on the DL than on the mound, and could very well be a 4.50 ERA guy when on the mound. In return, they only have to give up a young, healthy good arm, who admittedly had a bad second half, but who has a lot of potential and a much better "upside" than Johnson has.

Any trade that weakens one of the monsters atop the AL East is a good trade IMHO...

Of course... I do have my Blue Jays coloured glasses on here

[draven085]

A) I was talking about the Yankees, not the Red Sox. Not surprisingly the Red Sox automatically get dragged into the discussion somehow.

B) IIRC the Diamondbacks were pretty pissed off about the whole Wells thing.

C) My point about the Yankees getting what they want is that despite having approximately zero prospects with any value in their farm system they are still able to make trades because of buying power. I suppose you can make an argument that the money helps teams in some cases but more often than not the Yankees seem to get much better value out of the players they trade for. This can be seen in the Aaron Boone trade, the Slappy deal, and this Johnson deal if it goes through.

D) Anyone who thinks that the NYY acquiring Johnson is anything but an excellent move is kidding themselves. ERA+s of better than 170 in five of the past six years? Yeah, I'd take that on my team's staff any day of the week. The Yankees don't play for the future, especially with the team of geezers they have now, and Johnson is a huge upgrade over Javy Vazquez.

[Anachronism]

Originally Posted by draven085

D) Anyone who thinks that the NYY acquiring Johnson is anything but an excellent move is kidding themselves. ERA+s of better than 170 in five of the past six years? Yeah, I'd take that on my team's staff any day of the week. The Yankees don't play for the future, especially with the team of geezers they have now, and Johnson is a huge upgrade over Javy Vazquez.

We'll have to wait I see I guess... which Johnson will appear? 2003? or 2004?

[Slackker]

Originally Posted by draven085

Regardless, there always seems to be some team willing to bend a little bit to give the Yankees what they want. It makes no sense to me since I'm not in the habit of doing favors for people I'm competing with.

Doesn't just about any deal come under this heading? Obviously if a GM accepts a deal he thinks he's in an advantageous position. Steve Philips, Jim Duquette.. wait.. that's the wrong list. Anyway.. the DBacks are trying to come cleanly out of a situation where they realize they're not going to win anything this season, despite some things I've read. No one is that optimistic, I don't care what they say. In this case, the Yankees are easily more interested than any other team. If I was them, I would like the deal if it was JUST Vazquez and the cash. RJ isn't getting and younger. What's he got left? One good year, one above average year, and one "damn I should have retired" year? This will improve the DBacks financially, as well as the nearly barren minor leagues, and it'll make their major league club younger.

I know a lot of people can't stand the Yankees. I'm one of them. This deal, however, is not the right place to spew that particular venom. Perhaps, instead, you should complain about the Yankees throwing their money around - sending out a truckload of cash, AND taking on a very large salary. Or is that argument too tired already?

[CommishJoe]

Aaron Boone?? Other then 1AB, I don't see where the Yanks ripped off the Reds on that one.

As I said earlier, the D-Backs hands are tied. RJ probably would have ended up somewhere else if it wasn't for his no-trade clause, and the demand to be traded to the Yankees. White Sox, Dodgers, Angels and Cardinals are all teams I heard who were interested, but RJ shot them all down. This is not a typical trading scenario.

And, I'm sorry, but I can't seem to figure out who "slappy" is.

[Arlie Rahn]

Originally Posted by Slackker

If I was them, I would like the deal if it was JUST Vazquez and the cash. RJ isn't getting and younger. What's he got left? One good year, one above average year, and one "damn I should have retired" year? This will improve the DBacks financially, as well as the nearly barren minor leagues, and it'll make their major league club younger.

While I agree with your sentiment on the trade, I do take issue with some of the specifics. Going into the offseason, Arizona had only three players (RJ, Luis Gonzalez and Brandon Webb) making over 600K on their roster. They are an extremely young team, even with the additions of Ortiz, Glaus, Counsell and Clayton. Also, as of March 2004, Arizona had the 13th ranked minor league system in the league:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...trankings.html

This is before Arizona made numerous deals for prospects at the end of the season and their draft. So, Arizona has a very healthy minor league system with some good prospects. If you add in guys like Duncan and Navarro, they will get close to the top 10.

[Arlie Rahn]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

Aaron Boone?? Other then 1AB, I don't see where the Yanks ripped off the Reds on that one.

As I said earlier, the D-Backs hands are tied. RJ probably would have ended up somewhere else if it wasn't for his no-trade clause, and the demand to be traded to the Yankees. White Sox, Dodgers, Angels and Cardinals are all teams I heard who were interested, but RJ shot them all down. This is not a typical trading scenario.

And, I'm sorry, but I can't seem to figure out who "slappy" is.

Agreed. But I don't know how serious the Cardinals were given they would have a hard time absorbing RJ's monster contract. When it comes down to it, I think the main deal discussed of RJ for Vazquez, Navarro, Duncan and $7 million (NY Post) helps both teams, providing everyone stays healthy. Johnson is one of maybe a handful of guys in the league that can actually make New York 4-5 games better in the season and better in the postseason. On Arizona, maybe he makes the DBacks 7-8 games better than an average starter. So, it make more sense to bring in a guy like Vazquez (3-4 games worse than RJ), but also get two good prospects and cash they can turn into more players (Green, another pitcher). That way, instead of having only a 7-8 game increase by an aging Johnson, they can bring in 3-4 guys like Vazquez, Green, ... that maybe increase the team by 15-20 wins and be around for future seasons.

[Joshv02]

Ducan & Naverro = as overrated as a broadway play.

Duncan may be useful, and may be even a decent (i.e., lg avg) player-- I can't see Naverro turning into much.

I'm interested in the AZ system. Other than Conor Jackson & Scott Hairston, who is there? Also, is Hairston a 2B (I've read his defense is horrible, and the DBacks used him in the OF)? If not, can his bat carry him? (I always viewed him as Victor Diaz lite.)