Run Charged to Wrong Pitcher ?

[jmm8356]

Maybe I'm missing something in this scenario...

Top of the 7th
New Pitcher: Matthews
Single
Error on 1B, runner to 2nd
New Pitcher: Westerman
Attempted sacrifice bunt, out at third on fielder's choice (runners on 1st and 2nd)
New Pitcher: Hodgkins
Walk (Bases loaded)
Pop out to 3B
Double, three runs score
Wild pitch, runner to 3rd
Ground out to 2B

Inning over... Three runs, two hits, one error.

Now, the line scores:

Matthews.... 0.0 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 5 K
Westerman... 0.1 IP, 0 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 K
Hodgkins.... 2.2 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 1 K

Shouldn't Matthews be charged with two runs and Westerman with zero? Westerman's runner got on base because of a fielder's choice, and:

Originally Posted by MLB Rule 10.18

(g) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not be charged with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time he entered the game, nor for runs scored by any runner who reaches base on a fielder's choice which puts out a runner left on base by the preceding pitcher.
NOTE: It is the intent of this rule to charge each pitcher with the number of runners he put on base, rather than with the individual runners. When a pitcher puts runners on base, and is relieved, he shall be charged with all runs subsequently scored up to and including the number of runners he left on base when he left the game, unless such runners are put out without action by the batter, i.e., caught stealing, picked off base, or called out for interference when a batter runner does not reach first base on the play.

Luckily, they're unearned runs, so it's not going to completely wreck my postseason stats, but am I missing something or is this being scored incorrectly?

[benchwarmer]

I think Westermen should have been charged with another run if i read that right.

[gmo]

Well, if Westerman faced only a single batter, I cannot imagine how he could possibly be charged with more than a single run.

It seems like Westerman should get charged with zero runs while Matthews gets 2 and Hodgkins gets 1. So I'd guess it is a bug, or maybe just something implemented imperfectly when it comes to MLB rules.

However, I'll just toss out another possibility. Maybe the fact another pitcher came into the scenario affects the interpretation. Feel free to throw out an MLB rule to prove me wrong if applicable.

I know that in the following situation the second pitcher gets charged with an earned, rather than unearned, run: pitcher starts inning retiring first two batters, then allows an unearned run on a 4-base error (don't ask me how), and a second pitcher comes in and allows a HR to his first batter before setting down the next to end the inning. At least I think I know that. The principle is that just because the inning should have been over for the first pitcher, you don't use that as an excuse for the second pitcher to keep his run from being unearned. At least I think that is how it goes. Not to hijack the thread, but can someone clarify this point I am trying to make?

[Anachronism]

New Pitcher: Matthews
Single
Matthews 1B

Error on 1B, runner to 2nd
Matthews 1B and 2B

New Pitcher: Westerman
Attempted sacrifice bunt, out at third on fielder's choice (runners on 1st and 2nd)
Matthews 2B Westerman 1B

New Pitcher: Hodgkins
Walk (Bases loaded)
Matthews 3B Westerman 2B Hodgkins 1B

Pop out to 3B
Double, three runs score
Wild pitch, runner to 3rd
Ground out to 2B


As you can see, using normal convention, I've placed who owned the runner beside the man on the base. By the time the double is hit, each pitcher owns a runner - hence, 1 unearned run each. But reading that rule you are right... in which case Westerman should not be charged a run, but Mathews should be charged with two unearned runs... this is a bug that needs to be addressed.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Matthews should get two, Hodgkins one, Westerman zero. The run is charged to the wrong pitcher. That means that every time there's a fielder's choice, this is potentially done wrong within the game. Great.

[Anachronism]

Do'h... got the wrong guy here... I meant Eckstein, but he's already noticed in the post above!!!

[jmm8356]

Originally Posted by gmo

...but can someone clarify this point I am trying to make?

Well, I dunno if it clarifies anything , but here's the official word:

Originally Posted by MLB Rule 10.18

(i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs. NOTE: It is the intent of this rule to charge relief pitchers with earned runs for which they are solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. EXAMPLES: (1) With two out, P1 walks A. B reaches base on an error. P2 relieves P1. C hits home run, scoring three runs. Charge two unearned runs to P1, one earned run to P2. (2) With two out, P1 walks A and B and is relieved by P2. C reaches base on an error. D hits home run, scoring four runs. Charge two unearned runs to P1, two unearned runs to P2. (3) With none out, P1 walks A. B reaches base on an error. P2 relieves P1. C hits home run, scoring three runs. D and E strike out. F reaches base on an error. G hits home run, scoring two runs. Charge two runs, one earned, to P1. Charge three runs, one earned, to P2.

[jmm8356]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Matthews should get two, Hodgkins one, Westerman zero. The run is charged to the wrong pitcher. That means that every time there's a fielder's choice, this is potentially done wrong within the game. Great.

dola...

If it happened with every fielder's choice, I think I would have noticed it before now, so I'm inclined to think it's just on "sac bunt fielder's choice" plays.

[gmo]

Originally Posted by MLB Rule 10.18

(i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs. NOTE: It is the intent of this rule to charge relief pitchers with earned runs for which they are solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team.

That does seem to support what I was trying to say but not doing so well. But I doubt there is any reason to support my idea that a third pitcher should somehow make the one run be charged to the 2nd pitcher. Hopefully the discrepency does indeed only arise on sac bunt FCs rather than all.

Maybe I'm again yanking this thread off-track, but something else occurred to me in reading about Eck getting buried in those error scoring issues in his 1800s "sloppy-ball" era league, seeing some of MLB rule 10.18 posted here, and thinking of how walk-off HRs used to be not that if the batter need not score to win the game. Are there cases where rules in the game should be changed for different historical periods? I doubt that could excuse-away two-base throwing errors not being charged as ABs or relievers getting charged incorrectly with runs, but since I'm not much on baseball history I don't really know.

I guess a lot has changed from the early days, like SB used to include taking extra bases on hits. Is there a lot of stuff like that? What about more recent (at least 20th century) changes? I don't need an essay, I'm just curious and figure that sort of thing has actually been requested for the game before. Very brief answers or links would be fine as I really don't feel like getting truly up to speed on the issue right now.

[jmm8356]

Well, gmo, you already hit the big one with stolen bases = extra bases. I know that the definitions for sacrifice hits and flies changed a lot in the early days of baseball, but the one rule change I remember specifically is that back in Babe Ruth's day, balls hit out of the park were foul if they landed foul, regardless if they were fair when they left play. As I recall, Baseball Weekly did a story on it a while back and figured that the Babe lost 20-30 taters to that rule... yet I don't expect OOTP to eliminate the "hooking, hooking" plays when it's 1935 or earlier.

[sporr]

Originally Posted by jmm8356

I know that the definitions for sacrifice hits and flies changed a lot in the early days of baseball...

Yeah the scoring for this has changed a number of times. In some years, players were awarded a SF anytime a runner advanced regardless of base, and other years they didn't. It would be a neat addition if OOTP could score this depending on the era, but it would probably be better to nail down all of these little scoring errors first.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by sporr

It would be a neat addition if OOTP could score this depending on the era, but it would probably be better to nail down all of these little scoring errors first.

Agreed, and agreed.