Problem with Closer save totals since 6.10 + patch

Aordolin · 10-28-2004, 02:18 PM

Something I have been noticing since the patch, While save totals for the teams are in line with what they should be with my league settings every team is seemingly using atleast 2 players as closer. League leaders have dropped from being in the 30-40 range to 20s or below, with many teams have 2 players with 20ish saves. Anyone else getting results like this?

Jazzmosis · 10-28-2004, 02:25 PM

I haven't experienced that, my saves leader last year was 38 - what I have noticed though, is that some closers (by which I mean, all closers) won't get a save if they don't pitch the complete 9th inning. IE: If I have some guy pitch the first out of the 9th, then put my closer in for the last 2 outs in a 4-3 game, my closer doesn't get credited with a save. Why?

jmm8356 · 10-28-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzmosis

I haven't experienced that, my saves leader last year was 38 - what I have noticed though, is that some closers (by which I mean, all closers) won't get a save if they don't pitch the complete 9th inning. IE: If I have some guy pitch the first out of the 9th, then put my closer in for the last 2 outs in a 4-3 game, my closer doesn't get credited with a save. Why?

Whoever pitches the final two outs of a 4-3 win should get a save, so that's pretty fishy. With a three-run lead, you need to pitch a full inning (or enter the game with a runner on base) to get the save, but not with a one-run margin. If you could post the box score and/or game log, that'd help determine whether it's a bug or not.

daveyk · 10-28-2004, 04:12 PM

Anecdotally, I agree. I haven't done analysis to be sure, but it seems like my set-up men are getting a lot more saves in 6.11. Checking box scores randomly when seeing this, I noted that the game seemed to be putting them in in the 9th Inning, when I would expect the closer.

Maybe the closer is tired?

Aordolin · 10-28-2004, 07:52 PM

its just the setup men in my league, where before the setup man would get maybe 5 saves during a season now they are getting 15-20 and often the same number as the closer. At first I thought maybe the closer had gotton injured but when I saw it was like this for every team in the league and nothing has changed except for the new patch there has to be something with that.

Karl Marx · 10-29-2004, 01:23 AM

Anybody sim a bunch of seasons yet.. anything to this?

Jody

Jabs · 10-29-2004, 07:29 AM

I have also noticed this problem. In my real player league, I downloaded the patch before the 1998 season. My closer had 40 saves in 1997, only to drop to 19 in 1998. I thought this seemed odd and thought maybe he had been tired quite a bit. I checked on the rest of my staff's save numbers and found my lefty setup to have 7, my righty setup to have 4, and my MR's had 4, 3, and 1. I kept a close eye on things in the 1999 season (same pitching staff). My season started off just the same as the '98 season until I made one change....I placed my closer in the closer role and in the second setup slot on my pitching staff screen since my setup men were getting a lot of 9th inning appearances in save situations. My closer wasn't tired at all, he would go over a week between appearances. Once I made this small change, it seemed like things were back to normal. The closer ended up with 41 saves for the season. Now in 2000, I have experimented both ways and again, if my closer isn't listed as a setup man AND a closer, the save opportunities will be spread to all relievers.

I don't know if this matters or not, but my team strategies when it comes to pitching are set as follows:

Pull SP: about 25% from the left so pretty quick (in the orange area)
Pull RP: about 50%
Favor L/L -- R/R matchup: about 80% to the right in the green area

I suppose the L/L -- R/R matchups could affect the way the AI uses RP in simulated games, but shouldn't this thinking be only for setup pitchers and then the closer would face both RH and LH hitters to close a game out?

I'd be interested to know if anyone has simmed multiple seasons and checked on this as well being my sample size is only around 3 seasons.

jtsly2000 · 10-29-2004, 12:24 PM

I agree with the sentiment that MR pitchers are getting too many saves. Since the 6.11 patch was installed my closer has one save in the last twelve games and my MR pitcher has five.

Markus I think this needs to be looked at.

Thanks,

JT

ctorg · 10-29-2004, 12:30 PM

Maybe the AI has gotten wiser and has realized that the role of closer is overrated.

markeschen · 10-29-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmm8356

Whoever pitches the final two outs of a 4-3 win should get a save, so that's pretty fishy. With a three-run lead, you need to pitch a full inning (or enter the game with a runner on base) to get the save, but not with a one-run margin. If you could post the box score and/or game log, that'd help determine whether it's a bug or not.

I agree there is some statistical error. I have run only few days under 6.11 and have not actually had any save situation in the games I've plays, BUT 4 days into the season, in a 32 team league, there are only 4 saves total. This seams far too low to me.

Brian Corleone · 10-29-2004, 02:37 PM

Try this, check your "Use Reliever" setting, under "Edit Era", to see if its at Normal or higher. While trying to get accurate CG numbers, I noticed that increasing the "Use Relievers" setting decreases CGs, but Saves increase. If that don't work, then I don't know....and yes I have 6.11 patch.

My starter endurace is at Fair and Use Reliever is at Normal.
with those settings...
CGs averages 100 for AL and about 70ish for NL
Saves are about 35ish (league leaders) for both leagues.

BTW, anyone know how to increase Shutouts drastically in modern settings? MLB averages 100+shutouts between both leagues a year, while OOTP is at 22 between both leagues.

Aordolin · 10-29-2004, 03:31 PM

Ok I simmed some more seasons and got some numbers that should prove interesting. This is what I did, I simmed the same season over agian 5 straight times with each set up. I am using 5 man rotations with relievers being used "OFTEN" and pitcher endurance at "NORMAL". I simmed 5 years with the staffs set for my 16 team league the way I normally set them in the past. Next, I set the closer in the number 1 setup man spot in addition to being the closer and putting that setup man in the 2nd setup spot. Last I installed a previous patch 6.03 (I think there was one after that and before 6.10/6.11 but I couldnt find it) and used my staffs the way I had in example 1.

Sim #1 Normal Staff setup using 6.11

154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 602 (average over 5 seasons) League saves leader had average of 27 saves.

I excluded closers who got injured over the course of the season and their relievers so as not to skew the percentages. I broke it up by CLOSER, SETUP, MR.

Closers: 285
Setup: 123
Relievers: 115
54.4%

So basically, not factoring in blown saves, the player assigned as the team closer got the save chance 54.4% of the time.

Sim #2 Closers assigned to Setup 1 role as well as closer role. Setup1 moved to 2

154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 551 (average over 5 seasons). Saves leader averaged 29 saves.

Agian injured closers and there relievers were excluded from calculations

Closers: 313
Setup #2: 92
Relievers: 81
64.4%

This was a little better but as you can see relievers are still getting way to many chances.

Sim #3 Same as Sim #1 only using patch version 6.03

154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 608 (average over 5 seasons). Saves leader averaged 38 saves.

Closers: 450
Setup #1: 38
Relievers: 70
80.6%

This is what I had been used to in the previous 16 seasons I had simmed prior to installing the 6.11 patch. The relievers still seem to ve getting a few too many chances but you can see a dramatic difference in before and after.

I was curious at what the save stats were from baseball from this last season. I am going to throw out the stats for teams that did not have an established closer for the entire season due to injury, ineffectiveness, or trades.

Smoltz 44 of 48
Foulke 32 of 36
Graves 41 of 47
Benitez 47 of 53
Gagne 45 of 51
Kolb 39 of 42
Nathan 44 of 48
Looper 29 of 31
Rivera 53 of 59
Mesa 43 of 46
Hoffman 41 of 44
Isringhausen 47 of 57
Baez 30 of 35
Cordero 49 of 52

This averages out to 90% on the dot. I only took the above players because there were the only ones who played the entire season as the number one closer. I am sure if someone wanted to break down the numbers for others before they were hurt, traded.. etc those numbers would match these.

Hope these numbers will prove useful.

Karl Marx · 10-31-2004, 10:40 PM

Nice work

rem · 10-31-2004, 10:50 PM

[QUOTE=Aordolin] every team is seemingly using atleast 2 players as closer.QUOTE]

Awesome!

SandMan · 11-01-2004, 01:38 AM

My ACE closer has had totals of around 30 for the last 5 seasons and has been the league leader in 4 of those seasons. What I do like about this is that my team still averages the same number of saves as the totals before the upgrade but I now have many players on my team with saves and in one season my ace had 23 saves and my setup man had 16 saves. I actually like this because now more of my pitchers are being used and none are getting too many or too few innings. I hated not being able to resign my 2nd setup man because he only got 18 innings and would not sign because he is not happy with his playing time.

I would guess that if I were not happy with this, I could simply put my closer in the first setup man slot and the closer role and he would get more save opportunities, but he may also get tired more quickly and injured......

HH20xx convert · 11-01-2004, 11:21 AM

An AI for the modern era that doesn't treat the closers and setup men similar to real life is a bug, not a feature. We need 6.12 to solve this and the sound/XP crash bug ASAP. Solving these two issues (and nothing else to avoid unanticipated complications) would make me happy to wait for any other proposed changes. Meantime, I'm running 6.03.

Aordolin · 11-01-2004, 01:59 PM

Addressing what sandman said, I do think some working needed to be done with innings pitched especially by setupmen. The setup guys should be your 2 best pitchers in the bullpen most of the time other than the closer and alot of the time if I dont assign them to a middle reliever role as well they will end up the season with 30-40 innings. However if your just going to have anyone in the bullpen getting saves almost equally what is the point in assigning roles to them or even having a closer. These stats are not realistic, they arent really realistic with 6.03 but they are close and acceptable atleast. I think this is a pretty major problem and needs to be addressed soon. I could see the reasoning behind sometimes wanting a closer by commitee situation but that should be an assigned position. For most teams they should have an assigned closer and that person should get the ball in around 90% of the teams save opportunities.

jbmagic · 11-01-2004, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH20xx convert

An AI for the modern era that doesn't treat the closers and setup men similar to real life is a bug, not a feature. We need 6.12 to solve this and the sound/XP crash bug ASAP. Solving these two issues (and nothing else to avoid unanticipated complications) would make me happy to wait for any other proposed changes. Meantime, I'm running 6.03.

the sound/xp is fix crash is fix

there a solution for it
read this whole page
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...t=83152&page=3

Karl Marx · 11-01-2004, 11:42 PM

quick question, does it matter how many pitchers you have in your bullpen?

Jody

Aordolin · 11-02-2004, 12:42 AM

I had some teams with 6 and some with 7 men in the pen, that was the most though. So I dont think it would have mattered.

10-29-2004, 01:23 AM	#6
Karl Marx Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 213	Anybody sim a bunch of seasons yet.. anything to this? Jody __________________ "The art of remembering and forgetting will also insure against sticking fast in some relationship of life, and make possible the realization of a complete freedom." Kierkegaard

10-29-2004, 12:24 PM	#8
jtsly2000 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 172	MR getting too many saves I agree with the sentiment that MR pitchers are getting too many saves. Since the 6.11 patch was installed my closer has one save in the last twelve games and my MR pitcher has five. Markus I think this needs to be looked at. Thanks, JT

10-29-2004, 12:30 PM	#9
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	Maybe the AI has gotten wiser and has realized that the role of closer is overrated. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

10-29-2004, 02:37 PM	#11
Brian Corleone Bat Boy Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 16	Try this, check your "Use Reliever" setting, under "Edit Era", to see if its at Normal or higher. While trying to get accurate CG numbers, I noticed that increasing the "Use Relievers" setting decreases CGs, but Saves increase. If that don't work, then I don't know....and yes I have 6.11 patch. My starter endurace is at Fair and Use Reliever is at Normal. with those settings... CGs averages 100 for AL and about 70ish for NL Saves are about 35ish (league leaders) for both leagues. BTW, anyone know how to increase Shutouts drastically in modern settings? MLB averages 100+shutouts between both leagues a year, while OOTP is at 22 between both leagues. Last edited by Brian Corleone; 10-29-2004 at 02:40 PM.

10-31-2004, 10:40 PM	#13
Karl Marx Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 213	Nice work __________________ "The art of remembering and forgetting will also insure against sticking fast in some relationship of life, and make possible the realization of a complete freedom." Kierkegaard

10-28-2004, 02:18 PM	#1
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Problem with Closer save totals since 6.10 + patch Something I have been noticing since the patch, While save totals for the teams are in line with what they should be with my league settings every team is seemingly using atleast 2 players as closer. League leaders have dropped from being in the 30-40 range to 20s or below, with many teams have 2 players with 20ish saves. Anyone else getting results like this?

10-28-2004, 02:25 PM	#2
Jazzmosis All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Location: The London you've never heard of Posts: 505	I haven't experienced that, my saves leader last year was 38 - what I have noticed though, is that some closers (by which I mean, all closers) won't get a save if they don't pitch the complete 9th inning. IE: If I have some guy pitch the first out of the 9th, then put my closer in for the last 2 outs in a 4-3 game, my closer doesn't get credited with a save. Why? __________________ Florida Marlins GM, Netsports League - 2004 NL Champs, 2008 + 2013 Champions, 2004, 2009-2015, 2017-2021, 2024-2028 NLE Division Crown Mark Jazzington's Managerial Career - worth a read Thanks to Tib for the inspiration to write it.

10-28-2004, 04:12 PM	#4
daveyk Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 24	Anecdotally, I agree. I haven't done analysis to be sure, but it seems like my set-up men are getting a lot more saves in 6.11. Checking box scores randomly when seeing this, I noted that the game seemed to be putting them in in the 9th Inning, when I would expect the closer. Maybe the closer is tired?

10-28-2004, 07:52 PM	#5
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	its just the setup men in my league, where before the setup man would get maybe 5 saves during a season now they are getting 15-20 and often the same number as the closer. At first I thought maybe the closer had gotton injured but when I saw it was like this for every team in the league and nothing has changed except for the new patch there has to be something with that.

10-29-2004, 07:29 AM	#7
Jabs Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 114	I have also noticed this problem. In my real player league, I downloaded the patch before the 1998 season. My closer had 40 saves in 1997, only to drop to 19 in 1998. I thought this seemed odd and thought maybe he had been tired quite a bit. I checked on the rest of my staff's save numbers and found my lefty setup to have 7, my righty setup to have 4, and my MR's had 4, 3, and 1. I kept a close eye on things in the 1999 season (same pitching staff). My season started off just the same as the '98 season until I made one change....I placed my closer in the closer role and in the second setup slot on my pitching staff screen since my setup men were getting a lot of 9th inning appearances in save situations. My closer wasn't tired at all, he would go over a week between appearances. Once I made this small change, it seemed like things were back to normal. The closer ended up with 41 saves for the season. Now in 2000, I have experimented both ways and again, if my closer isn't listed as a setup man AND a closer, the save opportunities will be spread to all relievers. I don't know if this matters or not, but my team strategies when it comes to pitching are set as follows: Pull SP: about 25% from the left so pretty quick (in the orange area) Pull RP: about 50% Favor L/L -- R/R matchup: about 80% to the right in the green area I suppose the L/L -- R/R matchups could affect the way the AI uses RP in simulated games, but shouldn't this thinking be only for setup pitchers and then the closer would face both RH and LH hitters to close a game out? I'd be interested to know if anyone has simmed multiple seasons and checked on this as well being my sample size is only around 3 seasons.

10-29-2004, 03:31 PM	#12
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Ok I simmed some more seasons and got some numbers that should prove interesting. This is what I did, I simmed the same season over agian 5 straight times with each set up. I am using 5 man rotations with relievers being used "OFTEN" and pitcher endurance at "NORMAL". I simmed 5 years with the staffs set for my 16 team league the way I normally set them in the past. Next, I set the closer in the number 1 setup man spot in addition to being the closer and putting that setup man in the 2nd setup spot. Last I installed a previous patch 6.03 (I think there was one after that and before 6.10/6.11 but I couldnt find it) and used my staffs the way I had in example 1. Sim #1 Normal Staff setup using 6.11 154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 602 (average over 5 seasons) League saves leader had average of 27 saves. I excluded closers who got injured over the course of the season and their relievers so as not to skew the percentages. I broke it up by CLOSER, SETUP, MR. Closers: 285 Setup: 123 Relievers: 115 54.4% So basically, not factoring in blown saves, the player assigned as the team closer got the save chance 54.4% of the time. Sim #2 Closers assigned to Setup 1 role as well as closer role. Setup1 moved to 2 154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 551 (average over 5 seasons). Saves leader averaged 29 saves. Agian injured closers and there relievers were excluded from calculations Closers: 313 Setup #2: 92 Relievers: 81 64.4% This was a little better but as you can see relievers are still getting way to many chances. Sim #3 Same as Sim #1 only using patch version 6.03 154 game (16 Teams) season total league saves 608 (average over 5 seasons). Saves leader averaged 38 saves. Closers: 450 Setup #1: 38 Relievers: 70 80.6% This is what I had been used to in the previous 16 seasons I had simmed prior to installing the 6.11 patch. The relievers still seem to ve getting a few too many chances but you can see a dramatic difference in before and after. I was curious at what the save stats were from baseball from this last season. I am going to throw out the stats for teams that did not have an established closer for the entire season due to injury, ineffectiveness, or trades. Smoltz 44 of 48 Foulke 32 of 36 Graves 41 of 47 Benitez 47 of 53 Gagne 45 of 51 Kolb 39 of 42 Nathan 44 of 48 Looper 29 of 31 Rivera 53 of 59 Mesa 43 of 46 Hoffman 41 of 44 Isringhausen 47 of 57 Baez 30 of 35 Cordero 49 of 52 This averages out to 90% on the dot. I only took the above players because there were the only ones who played the entire season as the number one closer. I am sure if someone wanted to break down the numbers for others before they were hurt, traded.. etc those numbers would match these. Hope these numbers will prove useful.

10-31-2004, 10:50 PM	#14
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	[QUOTE=Aordolin] every team is seemingly using atleast 2 players as closer.QUOTE] Awesome! __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

11-01-2004, 01:38 AM	#15
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	My ACE closer has had totals of around 30 for the last 5 seasons and has been the league leader in 4 of those seasons. What I do like about this is that my team still averages the same number of saves as the totals before the upgrade but I now have many players on my team with saves and in one season my ace had 23 saves and my setup man had 16 saves. I actually like this because now more of my pitchers are being used and none are getting too many or too few innings. I hated not being able to resign my 2nd setup man because he only got 18 innings and would not sign because he is not happy with his playing time. I would guess that if I were not happy with this, I could simply put my closer in the first setup man slot and the closer role and he would get more save opportunities, but he may also get tired more quickly and injured......

11-01-2004, 11:21 AM	#16
HH20xx convert Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 225	An AI for the modern era that doesn't treat the closers and setup men similar to real life is a bug, not a feature. We need 6.12 to solve this and the sound/XP crash bug ASAP. Solving these two issues (and nothing else to avoid unanticipated complications) would make me happy to wait for any other proposed changes. Meantime, I'm running 6.03.

11-01-2004, 01:59 PM	#17
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Addressing what sandman said, I do think some working needed to be done with innings pitched especially by setupmen. The setup guys should be your 2 best pitchers in the bullpen most of the time other than the closer and alot of the time if I dont assign them to a middle reliever role as well they will end up the season with 30-40 innings. However if your just going to have anyone in the bullpen getting saves almost equally what is the point in assigning roles to them or even having a closer. These stats are not realistic, they arent really realistic with 6.03 but they are close and acceptable atleast. I think this is a pretty major problem and needs to be addressed soon. I could see the reasoning behind sometimes wanting a closer by commitee situation but that should be an assigned position. For most teams they should have an assigned closer and that person should get the ball in around 90% of the teams save opportunities.

11-01-2004, 11:42 PM	#19
Karl Marx Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 213	quick question, does it matter how many pitchers you have in your bullpen? Jody __________________ "The art of remembering and forgetting will also insure against sticking fast in some relationship of life, and make possible the realization of a complete freedom." Kierkegaard

11-02-2004, 12:42 AM	#20
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	I had some teams with 6 and some with 7 men in the pen, that was the most though. So I dont think it would have mattered.