WHY THE HECK????????

fluharty · 06-03-2002, 05:46 AM

Did the AI leave this guy in?????????

This was a playoff game!!!

<hr><pre>

Batting: Nashville, top of 1st.
Pitching: Harrison Rath

SS Albert Orduna:
Grounds out to the pitcher.

2B Jack Mann:
DOUBLES down the right field line.

C William Flowers:
SINGLES to left
Mann to third.
Mann tries to score...
He scores without a throw.

RF Samuel Paniagua:
Base on balls.
Flowers to second.

LF Richard Winget:
Base on balls.
Flowers to third.
Paniagua to second.

3B Christopher Barone:
Base on balls.
Flowers scores.
Paniagua to third.
Winget to second.

1B Edwin Pickett:
Base on balls.
Paniagua scores.
Winget to third.
Barone to second.

CF David Eckel:
Lines out to the second baseman.

P Richard Eberhart:
Base on balls.
Winget scores.
Barone to third.
Pickett to second.

SS Albert Orduna:
SINGLES to the gap in left-center.
Barone scores.
Pickett to third.
Eberhart to second.

2B Jack Mann:
Reaches on INFIELD-HIT.
Pickett scores.
Eberhart to third.
Orduna to second.

C William Flowers:
Base on balls.
Eberhart scores.
Orduna to third.
Mann to second.

RF Samuel Paniagua:
New pitcher: George Young.
DOUBLES to the gap in right-center.
Orduna scores.
Mann scores.
Flowers scores.

LF Richard Winget:
SINGLES to shallow left-center.
Paniagua to third.
Paniagua scores.

3B Christopher Barone:
Grounds out to the second baseman.

Inning over... 11 runs, 6 hits, no errors.
Score: Nashville 11, Wheeling 0

</pre>

Steve Kuffrey · 06-03-2002, 05:53 AM

Hard to tell w/o knowing the rest of the staff situation.

John C · 06-03-2002, 05:55 AM

It looks like the reign of terror didn't end with the first pitcher. They hit the second pitcher in the inning too. That happens, and I wouldn't discredit the AI for that.

Peace
John

fluharty · 06-03-2002, 06:09 AM

Agreed, Steve. Rath was my #1 at the time. This was game 3 (of 4, I was swept in 4 games). But gadzooks! He walked 3 runs in before he was pulled! The bullpen may have been tired, I guess. But even so, I'd have pulled him after he walking in that 2nd run, at least. Oh well. As you said, it depends on the context.

edit- 6 walks in 2/3 of an inning. 6!! GAA!

[ 06-03-2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: fluharty ]

Malleus Dei · 06-03-2002, 10:20 AM

Guys have had outings like that in real life and been left in before.

Malleus Dei · 06-03-2002, 10:30 AM

Every once in while, the AI manager does something really stupid, sometimes in a pennant race or maybe in a playoff.

Every once in while, a real MLB manager does something really stupid, sometimes in a pennant race (see 1964 Phillies) or maybe in a playoff (see 1986 Red Sox, World Series, Game 6, etc.)

Every once in while, the AI GM does something really stupid, usually along the lines of a dumb trade.

Every once in while, a real life GM does something really stupid, usually along the lines of a dumb trade (see November 29, 1971 - Astros trade Joe Morgan and others to Cincinnati for Lee May and Tommy Helms, etc.).

So, when the AI does something really stupid, I just smile and call it the John MacNamara factor.

Just think of it as extra added realism. It the AI manager/GM did the right thing all the time then you wouldn't be simulating real baseball very well, now would you?

Subby · 06-03-2002, 10:35 AM

Maybe God hates you.

Have you ever killed a jehova's witness in a knife fight?

fluharty · 06-03-2002, 11:35 AM

ok, Mal, you've convinced me. I am a programmer after all- ITS NOT A BUG IT'S A FEATURE!!!

bob didier · 06-03-2002, 11:41 AM

MD,

what did Mauch do that was so stupid in the 1964 pennant race?

going to a 3-man rotation, considering what he
had, you can argue against that

callison getting the flu...thomas breaking his
ankle against milwaukee sliding into second...
blaming him for Ruiz stealing home...

just curious...

Malleus Dei · 06-03-2002, 12:15 PM

With twelve games left in the 1964 season the Phillies led the St. Louis Cardinals by six and and half games. The Phils were selling World Series tickets.

The Phils got nervous and started to choke. Gene Mauch, the manager, got even more nervous and then went clear past choking: instead of continuing to do what had worked all season, Mauch chose to grasp at straws and went to a TWO-man rotation of Jim Bunning and Chris Short. Predictably, they both collapsed under the overload, and the Phillies collapsed behind them, losing 10 straight and sending the Cardinals to the World Series.

This is known in baseball history and legend as The Phillie Phold aka The Great Collapse aka El Foldo, and the joke was made that after the season the Phils should move to the Philippines, where they could be properly known from then on as the Manila Folders.

It was a classic case of really bad management.

bob didier · 06-03-2002, 05:40 PM

the team did choke no doubt and i guess since
mauch was in charge, he can take a large part
of the blame but there is more to it than saying mauch was stupid...besides the '64 SI i'm reading says it was a 3 man rotation, which is what i remember...you left out bennett...mahaffy was
pitched out as was most of the philly staff...

just the first time i've ever read "stupid" and
mauch in the same sentence...

Malleus Dei · 06-03-2002, 07:46 PM

Well, I have seen and heard Mauch called many bad things. My father had an extremely low opinion of the man.

Mauch was under .500 career as a manager, and never won so much as a pennant in twenty years of managing - despite being, yes, 6 and 1/2 up with 12 games left to go once. And what kind of career record is a sub-.500 one with no pennants? Like everyone else in baseball, Mauch has his own partisans, but IMO he was pathetic.

Malleus Dei · 06-04-2002, 03:37 AM

Mauch never learned, either.

"For example, [in 1964] Mauch rushed pitchers Jim Bunning and Chris Short on two days' rest, wearing them down as they reached the stretch drive.

It happened again in 1982, when he guided the Angels to the AL Championship Series against Milwaukee. He rushed Tommy John on three days' rest after the Angels built a 2-1 series lead in a best-of-five series. The Angels lost the next two games and the series."

from: <a href="http://www.journaliststoolbox.com/clips10.html" target="_blank">http://www.journaliststoolbox.com/clips10.html</a>

cjlawl · 06-04-2002, 06:46 PM

Malleus Dei , Thank you for bringing up my fav. team sorry past

and this year does not look much better. I am just a suffering phil fan.

andy m · 06-05-2002, 01:28 AM

i hear Gene Mauch is a big fan of your work too Malleus. on the 'ex MLB managers message forums' he has been posting numerous messages about you. i know this as i am a moderator over there.

of course... unless Gene Mauch is dead, in which case, it's someone posing as him.

bob didier · 06-05-2002, 04:06 AM

why put that "IMO he was pathetic".i didn't think you were giving the opinion of somebody
else, like say an "intelligent" person.

Malleus Dei · 06-05-2002, 04:21 AM

Well, he can say what he wants, but at least I wasn't managing a team that had a two to one lead in a best of five series and proceeded to throw it away, and I doubt if any other man alive was 6 and 1/2 games up with 12 games to play for the pennant and then threw it all away quite like Mauch did. And I surely would not have repeated the worst baseball mistake of my life eighteen years later.

Mauch was .483 in his career with no pennants. Trying to paint Mauch as a "good manager" doesn't work very well, as comparisons with managers perceived as "good managers" don't flatter Mauch at all. Bobby Cox - a current good manager - as of last season was .559 with 4 pennants and a World Series. Walter Alston, a Mauch contemporary, was .558 with 3 pennants and 4 World Series. The much-fired Billy Martin, famous for taking over struggling teams, was .553 with a pennant and two World Series. And to really make Mauch look bad, a truly good manager, Earl Weaver, was a full 100 percentage points better in his career than Mauch was - .583 lifetime. Not to mention that Earl won 3 pennants and a World Series.

wireman · 06-05-2002, 04:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> why put that "IMO he was pathetic". <hr /></blockquote>Good point. I always thought it was common knowledge that Mauch was pathetic

-- Louie

bkurtz · 06-05-2002, 04:48 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Malleus Dei:
..., but at least I wasn't managing a team that had a two to one lead in a best of five series and proceeded to throw it away<hr /></blockquote>you wasn't managing any team anyway. i'm sure offers abounded, but you were too busy at the time explorating planet mars to even think about the earth (which you created, obviously).

Malleus Dei · 06-05-2002, 05:40 AM

You guys really enjoying the personal insults? Coming from the sources that they are they are really meaningless and they aren't even having any effect besides making me even more contemptuous of a couple of you than I already was.

Me, I am posting useful baseball information. All that you are doing is posting some very childish noise.

Got a baseball point? Make it. Want to play personal insult? Guess what, they made this wonderful thing out there just for the likes of you called USENET.

06-03-2002, 05:53 AM	#2
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	Hard to tell w/o knowing the rest of the staff situation. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

06-03-2002, 05:55 AM	#3
John C Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albion, RI Posts: 2,260 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	It looks like the reign of terror didn't end with the first pitcher. They hit the second pitcher in the inning too. That happens, and I wouldn't discredit the AI for that. Peace John __________________ Facebook \| My Videos

06-03-2002, 06:09 AM	#4
fluharty All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 1,023	Agreed, Steve. Rath was my #1 at the time. This was game 3 (of 4, I was swept in 4 games). But gadzooks! He walked 3 runs in before he was pulled! The bullpen may have been tired, I guess. But even so, I'd have pulled him after he walking in that 2nd run, at least. Oh well. As you said, it depends on the context. edit- 6 walks in 2/3 of an inning. 6!! GAA! <small>[ 06-03-2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: fluharty ]</small>

06-04-2002, 06:46 PM	#14
cjlawl Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cape Coral , Fla Posts: 97	Malleus Dei , Thank you for bringing up my fav. team sorry past and this year does not look much better. I am just a suffering phil fan. __________________ WBL-Caracas Diablos

06-05-2002, 01:28 AM	#15
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	i hear Gene Mauch is a big fan of your work too Malleus. on the 'ex MLB managers message forums' he has been posting numerous messages about you. i know this as i am a moderator over there. of course... unless Gene Mauch is dead, in which case, it's someone posing as him. __________________

06-03-2002, 05:46 AM	#1
fluharty All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 1,023	WHY THE HECK???????? Did the AI leave this guy in????????? This was a playoff game!!! <hr><pre> Batting: Nashville, top of 1st. Pitching: Harrison Rath SS Albert Orduna: Grounds out to the pitcher. 2B Jack Mann: DOUBLES down the right field line. C William Flowers: SINGLES to left Mann to third. Mann tries to score... He scores without a throw. RF Samuel Paniagua: Base on balls. Flowers to second. LF Richard Winget: Base on balls. Flowers to third. Paniagua to second. 3B Christopher Barone: Base on balls. Flowers scores. Paniagua to third. Winget to second. 1B Edwin Pickett: Base on balls. Paniagua scores. Winget to third. Barone to second. CF David Eckel: Lines out to the second baseman. P Richard Eberhart: Base on balls. Winget scores. Barone to third. Pickett to second. SS Albert Orduna: SINGLES to the gap in left-center. Barone scores. Pickett to third. Eberhart to second. 2B Jack Mann: Reaches on INFIELD-HIT. Pickett scores. Eberhart to third. Orduna to second. C William Flowers: Base on balls. Eberhart scores. Orduna to third. Mann to second. RF Samuel Paniagua: New pitcher: George Young. DOUBLES to the gap in right-center. Orduna scores. Mann scores. Flowers scores. LF Richard Winget: SINGLES to shallow left-center. Paniagua to third. Paniagua scores. 3B Christopher Barone: Grounds out to the second baseman. Inning over... 11 runs, 6 hits, no errors. Score: Nashville 11, Wheeling 0 </pre>

06-03-2002, 10:35 AM	#7
Subby Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 375	Maybe God hates you. Have you ever killed a jehova's witness in a knife fight?

06-03-2002, 11:35 AM	#8
fluharty All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 1,023	ok, Mal, you've convinced me. I am a programmer after all- ITS NOT A BUG IT'S A FEATURE!!!

06-03-2002, 11:41 AM	#9
bob didier Bat Boy Join Date: May 2002 Location: waxahachie Posts: 11	MD, what did Mauch do that was so stupid in the 1964 pennant race? going to a 3-man rotation, considering what he had, you can argue against that callison getting the flu...thomas breaking his ankle against milwaukee sliding into second... blaming him for Ruiz stealing home... just curious...

06-03-2002, 05:40 PM	#11
bob didier Bat Boy Join Date: May 2002 Location: waxahachie Posts: 11	the team did choke no doubt and i guess since mauch was in charge, he can take a large part of the blame but there is more to it than saying mauch was stupid...besides the '64 SI i'm reading says it was a 3 man rotation, which is what i remember...you left out bennett...mahaffy was pitched out as was most of the philly staff... just the first time i've ever read "stupid" and mauch in the same sentence...

06-05-2002, 04:06 AM	#16
bob didier Bat Boy Join Date: May 2002 Location: waxahachie Posts: 11	why put that "IMO he was pathetic".i didn't think you were giving the opinion of somebody else, like say an "intelligent" person.

06-05-2002, 04:32 AM	#18
wireman All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Harrisonburg VA Posts: 765	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> why put that "IMO he was pathetic". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point. I always thought it was common knowledge that Mauch was pathetic -- Louie __________________ "Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."

06-05-2002, 04:48 AM	#19
bkurtz Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 161	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Malleus Dei: <strong>..., but at least I wasn't managing a team that had a two to one lead in a best of five series and proceeded to throw it away</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you wasn't managing any team anyway. i'm sure offers abounded, but you were too busy at the time explorating planet mars to even think about the earth (which you created, obviously).