Pitchers Hitting

jwstern · 03-02-2002, 06:22 AM

In "I love the game but..." category. This was listed below under "bug" by someone, but wanted to put it with a more descriptive title.

3 times in about 6 games played the computer manager has had the pitcher hit while trailing with players on the bench. The first couple of times they were trailing by 5, so I could live with it, though it was clearly not realistic. The last time, the Giants had Rob Nen lead off the bottom of the 9th trailing 6-5, with a full bench. To me, this makes a great game somewhat unplayable....As I recall this was an early bug in OOTP3 as well.

Steve Kuffrey · 03-02-2002, 06:28 AM

This IS an issue that we have tweaked and tweaked some more. It is a tough thing to balance and we will keep working on it.

mtw · 03-02-2002, 06:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1:
This IS an issue that we have tweaked and tweaked some more. It is a tough thing to balance and we will keep working on it.<hr></blockquote>

With all due respect, and understanding that I am not a programmer, I'm not sure what there is to "balance." In any era, unless the pitcher hitting is as good as a hitter on the bench (Mike Hampton, Don Robinson, Warren Spahn and the like), the computer should -always- pinch hit for the pitcher when losing in the 9th inning. Also, it should never sacrifice or attempt to steal a base (unless OOTP4 is programmed for defensive indifference) in the 9th inning unless it is moving the tying run or winning run into scoring position.

Steve Kuffrey · 03-02-2002, 06:50 AM

Balance for the "extrmemely" rare times when they would or have to bat. Believe me this issue has been discussed many, many times.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: OOTP1 ]

Markus Heinsohn · 03-02-2002, 07:02 AM

You are right, there was a bug that caused the pitchers hitting at times when he shouldn't. It will be fixed in the patch which will be released tomorrow!

VEASE · 03-02-2002, 07:06 AM

I am guessing here that what OOTP1 means by 'tweaking'is the programming of immediate versus long-term effects. What I mean is that if you have Rob Nen in the game he probably pitched in the top of the ninth and I'm assuming he didn't give up any runs. Now, the AI has to make a choice, which for us is a no-brainer, keep Nen in to pitch a possible tenth inning, or bring in a hitter. The reason this is a no-brainer for us is that by keeping Nen in you substantially reduce the chance of getting into the Tenth inning, and if you manage to tie with a pinch hitter, you bring in another guy to pitch.

The AI however 'sees' that Nen is the best guy to pitch any hypothetical Tenth inning and therefore thinks that leaving him in is the best play, assuming that you can get a run. The formula being tweaked must look partly like this:

Increased Chance of getting a run in 9th With Pinch Hitter minus decreased chance of winning game in extra innings by bringing in a lesser pitcher.

There is probably a lot more than this going on, but you can see how something that is obvious to humans (you don't score NOW, you lose)becomes problematical when it can't be isolated from the AI's overall strategy for making changes.

Th

VEASE · 03-02-2002, 07:08 AM

Or of course, like the guy who wrote the code said, it's a bug

Mike D · 03-02-2002, 07:16 AM

by definition, you can't "sacrafice bunt" unless there is someone on base, and if you sacrafice them, they move into scoring position.

VEASE · 03-02-2002, 07:24 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Mike D:
by definition, you can't "sacrafice bunt" unless there is someone on base, and if you sacrafice them, they move into scoring position.<hr></blockquote>

Absolutely, but MTW was talking about ONLY doing it when you're tied or down by one in the ninth, not when you trail by more.

Tresclub · 03-02-2002, 08:02 AM

Keep in mind that there are situations that you just might want your pitcher to hit in the 9th inning. You're down 1 run or tied in the 9th.
[*]The leadoff batter gets a double, and is on 2nd with nobody out, and the pitcher coming up. Now the pitcher is your ace closer, and got through the 8th 3 up and 3 down. Your ace closer is also an excellant bunter. [*]All this considered, I would have my pitcher bunt. By doing this, I get the runner to 3rd where I have two chances to score him on balls hit to the outfield; I don't waste a pinch-hitter, and, I keep my ace closer in the game.

There are a few other situations that are basically the same as the above where you want to accomplish the same results: sacrifice the runner, don't waste a ph and keep pitcher in the game.

Just some thoughts driving in from Cleveland this morning...

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tresclub ]

03-02-2002, 06:22 AM	#1
jwstern Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 25	Pitchers Hitting In "I love the game but..." category. This was listed below under "bug" by someone, but wanted to put it with a more descriptive title. 3 times in about 6 games played the computer manager has had the pitcher hit while trailing with players on the bench. The first couple of times they were trailing by 5, so I could live with it, though it was clearly not realistic. The last time, the Giants had Rob Nen lead off the bottom of the 9th trailing 6-5, with a full bench. To me, this makes a great game somewhat unplayable....As I recall this was an early bug in OOTP3 as well.

03-02-2002, 06:28 AM	#2
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	This IS an issue that we have tweaked and tweaked some more. It is a tough thing to balance and we will keep working on it. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

03-02-2002, 06:46 AM	#3
mtw All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 653	[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1: <strong>This IS an issue that we have tweaked and tweaked some more. It is a tough thing to balance and we will keep working on it.</strong><hr></blockquote> With all due respect, and understanding that I am not a programmer, I'm not sure what there is to "balance." In any era, unless the pitcher hitting is as good as a hitter on the bench (Mike Hampton, Don Robinson, Warren Spahn and the like), the computer should -always- pinch hit for the pitcher when losing in the 9th inning. Also, it should never sacrifice or attempt to steal a base (unless OOTP4 is programmed for defensive indifference) in the 9th inning unless it is moving the tying run or winning run into scoring position. __________________ Over-Zealous Apologist

03-02-2002, 06:50 AM	#4
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	Balance for the "extrmemely" rare times when they would or have to bat. Believe me this issue has been discussed many, many times. [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: OOTP1 ]</p> __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

03-02-2002, 07:02 AM	#5
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	You are right, there was a bug that caused the pitchers hitting at times when he shouldn't. It will be fixed in the patch which will be released tomorrow! __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

03-02-2002, 07:06 AM	#6
VEASE Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Stocksfield, UK Posts: 55	I am guessing here that what OOTP1 means by 'tweaking'is the programming of immediate versus long-term effects. What I mean is that if you have Rob Nen in the game he probably pitched in the top of the ninth and I'm assuming he didn't give up any runs. Now, the AI has to make a choice, which for us is a no-brainer, keep Nen in to pitch a possible tenth inning, or bring in a hitter. The reason this is a no-brainer for us is that by keeping Nen in you substantially reduce the chance of getting into the Tenth inning, and if you manage to tie with a pinch hitter, you bring in another guy to pitch. The AI however 'sees' that Nen is the best guy to pitch any hypothetical Tenth inning and therefore thinks that leaving him in is the best play, assuming that you can get a run. The formula being tweaked must look partly like this: Increased Chance of getting a run in 9th With Pinch Hitter minus decreased chance of winning game in extra innings by bringing in a lesser pitcher. There is probably a lot more than this going on, but you can see how something that is obvious to humans (you don't score NOW, you lose)becomes problematical when it can't be isolated from the AI's overall strategy for making changes. Th

03-02-2002, 07:08 AM	#7
VEASE Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Stocksfield, UK Posts: 55	Or of course, like the guy who wrote the code said, it's a bug

03-02-2002, 07:16 AM	#8
Mike D Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a van, down by the river Posts: 2,805	by definition, you can't "sacrafice bunt" unless there is someone on base, and if you sacrafice them, they move into scoring position. __________________ Sometimes the best laid plans will never get you laid the way you plan.

03-02-2002, 07:24 AM	#9
VEASE Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Stocksfield, UK Posts: 55	[quote]Originally posted by Mike D: <strong>by definition, you can't "sacrafice bunt" unless there is someone on base, and if you sacrafice them, they move into scoring position.</strong><hr></blockquote> Absolutely, but MTW was talking about ONLY doing it when you're tied or down by one in the ninth, not when you trail by more.

03-02-2002, 08:02 AM	#10
Tresclub All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: La Mesa, CA USA Posts: 1,908	Keep in mind that there are situations that you just might want your pitcher to hit in the 9th inning. You're down 1 run or tied in the 9th. []The leadoff batter gets a double, and is on 2nd with nobody out, and the pitcher coming up. Now the pitcher is your ace closer, and got through the 8th 3 up and 3 down. Your ace closer is also an excellant bunter. []All this considered, I would have my pitcher bunt. By doing this, I get the runner to 3rd where I have two chances to score him on balls hit to the outfield; I don't waste a pinch-hitter, and, I keep my ace closer in the game. There are a few other situations that are basically the same as the above where you want to accomplish the same results: sacrifice the runner, don't waste a ph and keep pitcher in the game. Just some thoughts driving in from Cleveland this morning... [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tresclub ]</p>