What is the incentive to be loyal?

thatsnotpr · 04-10-2002, 03:43 PM

For example, I picked up a pitcher named Maurive Layton in my inaugural season.

This kid was no great shakes, but turned into a 4 time All-Star, won the Oustanding Pitcher award once (21-5), and has kept it going decently through his 36th birthday.

However, I have a few awesome pitchers in the minors who are starting to stagnate.

Now, Layton has been in the bigs with my team for 10 years now, and in real life, I think the team would keep him (I just signed him to an extension @ 4mil for 2 years) as I'm guessing he would be a fan favorite.

I would like to see this accurately depicted in the game...a sense of team loyalty...

For example, what's to stop you from blowing out your priced players every year for players who are only a tad worse and way cheaper? In real life, I would think that potential FA's would give your organization a VERY long look, as who would want to bring their family into an unstable situation?

J P Falcon · 04-10-2002, 03:49 PM

I doubt a team in real life would keep him. If he wants too much money and you want to maintain a budget, then you can chuck loyalty out the window. Best to trade him for something decent, if you can get it.

thatsnotpr · 04-10-2002, 04:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by J P Falcon:
I doubt a team in real life would keep him. If he wants too much money and you want to maintain a budget, then you can chuck loyalty out the window. Best to trade him for something decent, if you can get it.<hr /></blockquote>Think so?

My team is only middle of the road in terms of payroll, and I have a fan rating of 100 (over 4 mil in attendance/yearly)...and I make far and away the best $$$ a year...so i dont have a problem paying him...

I just wish htat fans and ohter players would be pissed with a revolving door atmosphere. Stability is actually important to a lot of players (no trade clauses), etc.

J P Falcon · 04-10-2002, 05:02 PM

No trade clauses are not because the player cares about team stability. It is for personal reasons. Either they want to settle down with their family or they want to prevent being traded to a team that they don't want to go to. Except for the rare exception, Gwynn, Brett, and a handful of others, there is no team loyalty in major league baseball. This is not a knock. It's just the way it is.

[ 04-10-2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: J P Falcon ]

Shorty · 04-10-2002, 05:53 PM

I disagree.

I have nothing more to say.

Geiiga · 04-10-2002, 06:57 PM

So in a world with no team loyalty, Mike Sweeney would say 'Screw the Royals, I'm going to New York, where they'll pay me what an all-star first baseman should make.'

Only that didn't happen. Sweeney's in Kansas City, working for less than market value, because he likes Kansas City. Johnny Damon would be here as well, except that the team doesn't seem to have a lot of loyalty for its players.

ISiddiqui · 04-10-2002, 07:04 PM

Well, just look at the Yankees. There were actually some fans really upset at the treatment Tino Martinez got when Giambi was signed, etc.

Of course, most of the fans didn't really care, and it won't hurt the Yanks in the long term in respect to FAs.

Killebrew · 04-10-2002, 07:19 PM

Not sure about loyalty beyond what is already in the game, but I'd love to see some kind of "fan fave" (and maybe the opposite too for the John Rockers of baseball) added to the game. FOF does this very nicely - releasing or trading a fan favorite will have a negative impact on fan support and gate $$$ (as it should). In some cases these fan faves are greedy too, and it makes the question of resigning them that much tougher, especially when their skills diminish. There is currently nothing like this in OOTP.

FastLane · 04-10-2002, 07:43 PM

I agree with Killebrew here and have longed for this kind of feature in OOTP. It would also be kind of neat to be able to change a setting for team/player loyalty for each of the CPU controlled teams. To reflect how some teams turn over their rosters or hold on to the home grown talent.

In addition, I would like to see a rating on General Managers not only to evaluate talent, but how much trading they do. Do you hire "Stand" Pat Gillick or Randy "Trader Jack" Smith as your GM?

Tarkus · 04-10-2002, 08:17 PM

If I remember correctly Front Office Football has fan favorites and if you trade or cut them the fans get pissed off and your attendance drops. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Tarkus

thatsnotpr · 04-10-2002, 10:13 PM

For example. Mike Piazza Dodger jerseys still sell out, and attendance and fan support was never the same since they traded him.

Him and Karros were best friends, and now Karros is quiet and bitter.

I would love to see this correspond with team chemistry (player persona ratings)

Granny Hamner · 04-11-2002, 04:52 AM

Again, Championship Manager has a good example of what's being discussed here. In fact, at the end of the season, the game tells which player was the Fans' Favorite. Dumping a popular player might also rub the other players the wrong way. ChampMan measures players "morale" with the club in a complex and interesting way. For example, if you pick up a foreign player, it helps to have another player on the team that speaks his language to maintain his morale. You can also fine players for misdeeds such as poor training habits and stupid plays. Adding features like these to OOTP4 would be terrific.

J P Falcon · 04-11-2002, 05:07 AM

I like the idea of how fan loyalty towards a certain player can affect your attendance if you do not resign him. I think that would have showed itself in San Francisco had Bonds signed on with some other team (which by the way he gladly would have done if another team showed any interest in his original contract demands). The original thought though was player loyalty towards a team and how that can be incorporated. With the advent of free agency, and power agents, like Boros, I think it has no bearing. Loyalty goes as far as your next paycheck. Just look a Clemens, Giambi, Rolens, the three Mariners defectors, I can go on and on.

henry296 · 04-11-2002, 05:21 AM

Loyalty runs both ways. I think OOTP does a good job of measuring if I player will be loyal to his team. However, there is no impact of roster turnover or team loyalty to the player. There should be some impact of not treating players like dirt. That is tons of trades, or not resigning a guy who has been with the team from the start. Some people have outlined some great possible impacts and I hope Markus takes them to heart. These are real people with feelings not just numbers.

Todd

CMH · 04-11-2002, 12:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ISiddiqui:
Well, just look at the Yankees. There were actually some fans really upset at the treatment Tino Martinez got when Giambi was signed, etc.

Of course, most of the fans didn't really care, and it won't hurt the Yanks in the long term in respect to FAs.<hr /></blockquote>From what i remember Tino Martinez was not treated badly by the Yankees. In fact, Joe Torre called Tino on a small number of occassions to ask him if it was alright to go after Giambi. Ofcourse Tino would say yes b/c hes a class act guy but it wasnt as if the Yanks kicked him off the boat and didnt tell him what they were doing. Tino was fully aware of the situation and understood it was a business.

Now I think maybe the real topic should be on Robbie Alomar and Shapiro. There's an example of dishonesty from a GM who promised a player that he wouldnt be moved.

Scott Vibert · 04-11-2002, 12:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by YankeePride:

Now I think maybe the real topic should be on Robbie Alomar and Shapiro. There's an example of dishonesty from a GM who promised a player that he wouldnt be moved.<hr /></blockquote>However if Alomar had been loyal and not changed teams ever time a contract was up, he'd have 10-5 rights and could have refused the trade... so in the end he pays for his paycheck to paycheck loyalty.. and I have no problem with this.

CMH · 04-11-2002, 01:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ScottVib:
However if Alomar had been loyal and not changed teams ever time a contract was up, he'd have 10-5 rights and could have refused the trade... so in the end he pays for his paycheck to paycheck loyalty.. and I have no problem with this.<hr /></blockquote>very good point ScottVib. And while that is true, I just gave the example to show people that while many would believe the Yankees upper management practice a no support for their players attitude, there are other teams that in fact practice that regularly.

Maybe I get a bit defensive with the Yankees. and i apologize. i have to work on that (however, can you blame me since I am actually one of the good Yankee fans who has to deal with way too much from fans of other teams...especially when i know i dont deserve it)

Scott Vibert · 04-11-2002, 01:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by YankeePride:
[QBMaybe I get a bit defensive with the Yankees. and i apologize. i have to work on that (however, can you blame me since I am actually one of the good Yankee fans who has to deal with way too much from fans of other teams...especially when i know i dont deserve it)[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>No need to apologize, I also have no qualms with the way the Yankees treat players. They treat them well enough to attract the big ones and that goes for something, the Red Sox were forced to grossly overpay for Ramirez and Mussina went to New York despite a superior (more $$) offer from Boston.

I tend to side with ownership, who if not for their own stupidity (kind of funny how many of the wealthiest individuals seem to have so little common sense) might actually have beaten the players association by now and have a 50/50 partnership running baseball with the players, or be actually running it themselves, rather than the players running it. I just find it hard to sympathize with multi-millionaires complaining about their pay for playing a game as their job. Heck I'd do that just for enough money to keep me fed, clothed, and with a roof over my head (ok and enough left over for OOTP), it doesn't even need to be anything spectacular, a weeks worth of jeans and t-shirts, 3 meals a day (and a snack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) and a one bedroom apartment and I'll play for any team in the league.

CMH · 04-11-2002, 02:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ScottVib:
[QBI just find it hard to sympathize with multi-millionaires complaining about their pay for playing a game as their job. Heck I'd do that just for enough money to keep me fed, clothed, and with a roof over my head (ok and enough left over for OOTP), it doesn't even need to be anything spectacular, a weeks worth of jeans and t-shirts, 3 meals a day (and a snack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) and a one bedroom apartment and I'll play for any team in the league.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I feel the exact same way. I would play the game for the minimum and have no problems at all. In fact I always said to myself, if i ever played in the Majors and made 5-10 or even 20 million dollars a year, I would:
One: give most of that back to the organization (someway where it wont be against baseball rules) so that this way we could sign more players. I mean if you take 5 million a year instead of 20, then the team can sign three other guys at 5 million a year..right? and you have a better chance at winning. Since i thought the game was about playing and winning a title and not about salaries.
TWO: Give most of it back to my home town, community, elementary school, high school, and college, in addition to building my own foundation and giving to programs for research into cancer, AIDS, and etc. diseases.
THREE: I only need like how much money? i mean really. There are some doctors, lawyers, etc. that live good lives in good homes and neighborhoods with 100,000 - 500,000 dollars a year. They do more for this world than a baseball player would.

*It kinda upset me when MLB told Wendell he couldnt play for free. I mean, come on, if the guy wants to then wats the harm? Are league averages gonna drop? oooh, thats a shame...lets cry that league averages will drop. In my opinion the MLBPA is way over their heads about certain things.

Jon Finnecy · 04-11-2002, 02:38 PM

Well, remember though, the MLBPA, like most (all?) unions, likely racks in a percentage of the total salary of its members. So, it has a vested interest to keep salaries as high as possible.

Just one of the many evils unions have brought to the free market economy.

04-10-2002, 03:43 PM	#1
thatsnotpr Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 47	What is the incentive to be loyal? For example, I picked up a pitcher named Maurive Layton in my inaugural season. This kid was no great shakes, but turned into a 4 time All-Star, won the Oustanding Pitcher award once (21-5), and has kept it going decently through his 36th birthday. However, I have a few awesome pitchers in the minors who are starting to stagnate. Now, Layton has been in the bigs with my team for 10 years now, and in real life, I think the team would keep him (I just signed him to an extension @ 4mil for 2 years) as I'm guessing he would be a fan favorite. I would like to see this accurately depicted in the game...a sense of team loyalty... For example, what's to stop you from blowing out your priced players every year for players who are only a tad worse and way cheaper? In real life, I would think that potential FA's would give your organization a VERY long look, as who would want to bring their family into an unstable situation?

04-10-2002, 04:31 PM	#3
thatsnotpr Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 47	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J P Falcon: <strong>I doubt a team in real life would keep him. If he wants too much money and you want to maintain a budget, then you can chuck loyalty out the window. Best to trade him for something decent, if you can get it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think so? My team is only middle of the road in terms of payroll, and I have a fan rating of 100 (over 4 mil in attendance/yearly)...and I make far and away the best $$$ a year...so i dont have a problem paying him... I just wish htat fans and ohter players would be pissed with a revolving door atmosphere. Stability is actually important to a lot of players (no trade clauses), etc.

04-10-2002, 05:02 PM	#4
J P Falcon Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 406	No trade clauses are not because the player cares about team stability. It is for personal reasons. Either they want to settle down with their family or they want to prevent being traded to a team that they don't want to go to. Except for the rare exception, Gwynn, Brett, and a handful of others, there is no team loyalty in major league baseball. This is not a knock. It's just the way it is. <small>[ 04-10-2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: J P Falcon ]</small>

04-10-2002, 05:53 PM	#5
Shorty All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 992	I disagree. I have nothing more to say. __________________ Here we go Redlegs here we go!

04-10-2002, 06:57 PM	#6
Geiiga Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 195	So in a world with no team loyalty, Mike Sweeney would say 'Screw the Royals, I'm going to New York, where they'll pay me what an all-star first baseman should make.' Only that didn't happen. Sweeney's in Kansas City, working for less than market value, because he likes Kansas City. Johnny Damon would be here as well, except that the team doesn't seem to have a lot of loyalty for its players. __________________

04-10-2002, 03:49 PM	#2
J P Falcon Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 406	I doubt a team in real life would keep him. If he wants too much money and you want to maintain a budget, then you can chuck loyalty out the window. Best to trade him for something decent, if you can get it.

04-10-2002, 07:04 PM	#7
ISiddiqui Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA Posts: 30	Well, just look at the Yankees. There were actually some fans really upset at the treatment Tino Martinez got when Giambi was signed, etc. Of course, most of the fans didn't really care, and it won't hurt the Yanks in the long term in respect to FAs.

04-10-2002, 07:19 PM	#8
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	Not sure about loyalty beyond what is already in the game, but I'd love to see some kind of "fan fave" (and maybe the opposite too for the John Rockers of baseball) added to the game. FOF does this very nicely - releasing or trading a fan favorite will have a negative impact on fan support and gate $$$ (as it should). In some cases these fan faves are greedy too, and it makes the question of resigning them that much tougher, especially when their skills diminish. There is currently nothing like this in OOTP. __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

04-10-2002, 07:43 PM	#9
FastLane Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 481	I agree with Killebrew here and have longed for this kind of feature in OOTP. It would also be kind of neat to be able to change a setting for team/player loyalty for each of the CPU controlled teams. To reflect how some teams turn over their rosters or hold on to the home grown talent. In addition, I would like to see a rating on General Managers not only to evaluate talent, but how much trading they do. Do you hire "Stand" Pat Gillick or Randy "Trader Jack" Smith as your GM? __________________ You know it's summertime at Candlestick when the fog rolls in, the wind kicks up, and you see the center fielder slicing open a caribou to survive the ninth inning. ~Bob Sarlette Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax. ~Mike Royko

04-10-2002, 08:17 PM	#10
Tarkus Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 93	If I remember correctly Front Office Football has fan favorites and if you trade or cut them the fans get pissed off and your attendance drops. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

04-10-2002, 10:13 PM	#11
thatsnotpr Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 47	For example. Mike Piazza Dodger jerseys still sell out, and attendance and fan support was never the same since they traded him. Him and Karros were best friends, and now Karros is quiet and bitter. I would love to see this correspond with team chemistry (player persona ratings)

04-11-2002, 04:52 AM	#12
Granny Hamner Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 51	Again, Championship Manager has a good example of what's being discussed here. In fact, at the end of the season, the game tells which player was the Fans' Favorite. Dumping a popular player might also rub the other players the wrong way. ChampMan measures players "morale" with the club in a complex and interesting way. For example, if you pick up a foreign player, it helps to have another player on the team that speaks his language to maintain his morale. You can also fine players for misdeeds such as poor training habits and stupid plays. Adding features like these to OOTP4 would be terrific. __________________ "Q - What's it like being the smallest guy in the majors? A- It's a lot better than being the smallest guy in the minors." -- Billy Bates.

04-11-2002, 05:07 AM	#13
J P Falcon Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 406	I like the idea of how fan loyalty towards a certain player can affect your attendance if you do not resign him. I think that would have showed itself in San Francisco had Bonds signed on with some other team (which by the way he gladly would have done if another team showed any interest in his original contract demands). The original thought though was player loyalty towards a team and how that can be incorporated. With the advent of free agency, and power agents, like Boros, I think it has no bearing. Loyalty goes as far as your next paycheck. Just look a Clemens, Giambi, Rolens, the three Mariners defectors, I can go on and on.

04-11-2002, 05:21 AM	#14
henry296 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 514	Loyalty runs both ways. I think OOTP does a good job of measuring if I player will be loyal to his team. However, there is no impact of roster turnover or team loyalty to the player. There should be some impact of not treating players like dirt. That is tons of trades, or not resigning a guy who has been with the team from the start. Some people have outlined some great possible impacts and I hope Markus takes them to heart. These are real people with feelings not just numbers. Todd

04-11-2002, 12:38 PM	#15
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ISiddiqui: <strong>Well, just look at the Yankees. There were actually some fans really upset at the treatment Tino Martinez got when Giambi was signed, etc. Of course, most of the fans didn't really care, and it won't hurt the Yanks in the long term in respect to FAs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From what i remember Tino Martinez was not treated badly by the Yankees. In fact, Joe Torre called Tino on a small number of occassions to ask him if it was alright to go after Giambi. Ofcourse Tino would say yes b/c hes a class act guy but it wasnt as if the Yanks kicked him off the boat and didnt tell him what they were doing. Tino was fully aware of the situation and understood it was a business. Now I think maybe the real topic should be on Robbie Alomar and Shapiro. There's an example of dishonesty from a GM who promised a player that he wouldnt be moved.

04-11-2002, 12:44 PM	#16
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,251	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YankeePride: <strong> Now I think maybe the real topic should be on Robbie Alomar and Shapiro. There's an example of dishonesty from a GM who promised a player that he wouldnt be moved.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However if Alomar had been loyal and not changed teams ever time a contract was up, he'd have 10-5 rights and could have refused the trade... so in the end he pays for his paycheck to paycheck loyalty.. and I have no problem with this.

04-11-2002, 01:01 PM	#17
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ScottVib: <strong>However if Alomar had been loyal and not changed teams ever time a contract was up, he'd have 10-5 rights and could have refused the trade... so in the end he pays for his paycheck to paycheck loyalty.. and I have no problem with this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">very good point ScottVib. And while that is true, I just gave the example to show people that while many would believe the Yankees upper management practice a no support for their players attitude, there are other teams that in fact practice that regularly. Maybe I get a bit defensive with the Yankees. and i apologize. i have to work on that (however, can you blame me since I am actually one of the good Yankee fans who has to deal with way too much from fans of other teams...especially when i know i dont deserve it)

04-11-2002, 01:10 PM	#18
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,251	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YankeePride: [QBMaybe I get a bit defensive with the Yankees. and i apologize. i have to work on that (however, can you blame me since I am actually one of the good Yankee fans who has to deal with way too much from fans of other teams...especially when i know i dont deserve it)[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to apologize, I also have no qualms with the way the Yankees treat players. They treat them well enough to attract the big ones and that goes for something, the Red Sox were forced to grossly overpay for Ramirez and Mussina went to New York despite a superior (more $$) offer from Boston. I tend to side with ownership, who if not for their own stupidity (kind of funny how many of the wealthiest individuals seem to have so little common sense) might actually have beaten the players association by now and have a 50/50 partnership running baseball with the players, or be actually running it themselves, rather than the players running it. I just find it hard to sympathize with multi-millionaires complaining about their pay for playing a game as their job. Heck I'd do that just for enough money to keep me fed, clothed, and with a roof over my head (ok and enough left over for OOTP), it doesn't even need to be anything spectacular, a weeks worth of jeans and t-shirts, 3 meals a day (and a snack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) and a one bedroom apartment and I'll play for any team in the league.

04-11-2002, 02:01 PM	#19
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ScottVib: [QBI just find it hard to sympathize with multi-millionaires complaining about their pay for playing a game as their job. Heck I'd do that just for enough money to keep me fed, clothed, and with a roof over my head (ok and enough left over for OOTP), it doesn't even need to be anything spectacular, a weeks worth of jeans and t-shirts, 3 meals a day (and a snack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) and a one bedroom apartment and I'll play for any team in the league.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the exact same way. I would play the game for the minimum and have no problems at all. In fact I always said to myself, if i ever played in the Majors and made 5-10 or even 20 million dollars a year, I would: One: give most of that back to the organization (someway where it wont be against baseball rules) so that this way we could sign more players. I mean if you take 5 million a year instead of 20, then the team can sign three other guys at 5 million a year..right? and you have a better chance at winning. Since i thought the game was about playing and winning a title and not about salaries. TWO: Give most of it back to my home town, community, elementary school, high school, and college, in addition to building my own foundation and giving to programs for research into cancer, AIDS, and etc. diseases. THREE: I only need like how much money? i mean really. There are some doctors, lawyers, etc. that live good lives in good homes and neighborhoods with 100,000 - 500,000 dollars a year. They do more for this world than a baseball player would. *It kinda upset me when MLB told Wendell he couldnt play for free. I mean, come on, if the guy wants to then wats the harm? Are league averages gonna drop? oooh, thats a shame...lets cry that league averages will drop. In my opinion the MLBPA is way over their heads about certain things.

04-11-2002, 02:38 PM	#20
Jon Finnecy Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 47	Well, remember though, the MLBPA, like most (all?) unions, likely racks in a percentage of the total salary of its members. So, it has a vested interest to keep salaries as high as possible. Just one of the many evils unions have brought to the free market economy.