Scoring Since the Patch

PittPanther · 10-05-2004, 06:40 AM

How are you guys feeling about the post-patch scoring? I seem to be getting the same score pretty much throughout the five fights I've fought since I patched.

For example: Travis Simms 117-111 on all 3 cards over McKart
When Trinidad stops Mayorga in the 11th, all 3 judges had it 97-93.

The variation in scoring seems to be snubbed, at least on my game. Are you guys seeing this, or should I just try to fight some more and let it work its way out of this?

Tom Trunzo · 10-05-2004, 08:18 AM

Have you used different judges that have a tendency to award rounds differently? This can make a difference. Let me know.

javier_83 · 10-05-2004, 06:55 PM

i am going to check

i want to help in this forum for this game

sabotai · 10-05-2004, 08:09 PM

I ran a bunch of matches to look at this. I see a lot of decisions with the judges ruling the same way, but the larger issue I see (and possibly what is causing the same decisions) is that there are way too many rounds being scored a draw.

I ran 19 fights (3 times each) for a total of 57 fights simmed. I'd say all but about 3 or 4 had a fight in which all 3 judges had at least 1 round even (and 2 of those were 1st round KOs) with at least 1/2 of them having each judge scoring multiple rounds even. I saw one fight were 2 judges had 5 rounds scored even (the other had 4). One fight, all 3 judges scored the last 3 rounds even. (EDIT: And the vast majority of the time where a round was scored even, all 3 judges scored it even. So these draw rounds aren't all over the place. The judges are basically scoring the same rounds even)

All fights were between fighters that were within 2 Overall Rating points from each other and were 12 rounds.

sabotai · 10-05-2004, 09:10 PM

I've been doing a bigger test. I simmed a lot of fights and here are the stats so far (about 1/10th of the way through, dunno if I'll get through it all)

So far, I've seen 73 fights of varying length (due ot stoppage). The max they could go is 12. Since there are three judges, I multiply all of the total rounds I've seen (594, average of just over 8 rounds per fight) by 3 (giving a total of 1782 judged rounds).

There were 356 even rounds scored by the 3 judges in those 1782 judged rounds. That gives a 20% (19.9776% to be exact) of scores given out by the judges were even rounds.

58 of the 73 fights had at least 1 judge score a round even (note: These include the fights that ended with a KO in the 2nd or 3rd round...and there were some of those that had an even round too).

47 of the 73 fights had all 3 judges score at least 1 round even (Again, including those that ended in the 2nd or 3rd round on).

Now those two I don't see as big deals. It's far from unusual to see a round scored even in a fight, a little more unusual to see all 3 judges score a round even (the vast majority of the time, it was the same round).

34 out of 73 fights had all 3 judges score at least 2 rounds even. I think it's starting to become a big deal. This is just under half (46.5%) of all fights and there were at least 2 rounds scored even by all 3 judges in those fights. I fi took out all of the 2 or 3 round fights, I'd probably go ofer the 50% mark.

23 out of 73 fights had at least 1 judge score 3 rounds even. In all 23 of these fights, all 3 judges scored at least two rounds even. To clear that up, of those 34 fights in which all 3 judges scored at least 2 rounds even, only 11 of them didn't have a judge score 3 or more rounds even.

16 out of 73 (21.9%) fights had all 3 judges score at least 3 rounds even.

6 out of 73 (8.2%) fights had all 3 judges score at least 4 rounds even.

There were 2 fights that had all 3 judges scoring 6 rounds even.

I'm about to leave for the night, so I probably won't be able to provide more details.

(Also, please realize I'm doing this to help the developers and not to bash them or laugh at a bug or mistake. There is clearly something wrong with the scoring of the rounds and I want to help them figure out scope of the problem and maybe help them get to the source of the problem. I'm a programmer too, I know how tough it is to find bugs on your own.

)

Andreas Raht · 10-06-2004, 04:16 AM

Thank you very much, that helps us a lot! We're of course also looking at the scoring now and will fix it ASAP.

Gunsmoke · 10-06-2004, 04:24 AM

Excellent news Andreas, it's a pity that something like this fell through the net in what was otherwise an excellent patch.

PittPanther · 10-06-2004, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Trunzo

Have you used different judges that have a tendency to award rounds differently? This can make a difference. Let me know.

Tom,

I always use random judges.

wildhawke11 · 10-06-2004, 09:34 AM

Two closely matched fighters Charley Burley v Ray Robinson over one thousands bouts will have about I fight in 10 ending in a draw.
This is about right.They are so closely matched that often there is only 2 pts difference between the winner and loser at the end of the fight.

Now imagine that fight for real being scored by 3 judges who are not on Kings payroll (so to speak) Every round is going to be pretty close so its quite possible that in a 12 round fight 3 or more rounds would be scored as even. I think we can agree on that point. As most of the other rounds could possible be tough close rounds also. The judges would have a hard time deciding who in fact did win the round. Of course they cant keep scoring rounds even so they have to favour one fighter or the other. (There only human) and get things wrong at times

hence the Judges would have a difference of opinion as to who won the round and this would then be reflected on there score cards.

Problem is in the game is this. Lets call the judges robots there perfect, and every round they all can pick the correct score. So if nothing is done to stop this and its left at that, it means that all robots will score the same rounds a draw or pick the same fighter as each other to win the round. To avoid this, there has to be a percentage inbuilt in the program that throws up a chance that the computer judges do not all score the fight the correct way.
So that one robot gives the losing fighter the round, while maybe the other two go and pick the winner. That way you avoid all the perfect robots being correct for every round. and all scoring the rounds the same way.

Problem is its getting the % right. I think maybe its not working out correct and the bar has to be raised. But in truth only our programmer will know the reason.

Andreas Raht · 10-06-2004, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildhawke11

Two closely matched fighters Charley Burley v Ray Robinson over one thousands bouts will have about I fight in 10 ending in a draw.
This is about right.They are so closely matched that often there is only 2 pts difference between the winner and loser at the end of the fight.

Now imagine that fight for real being scored by 3 judges who are not on Kings payroll (so to speak) Every round is going to be pretty close its quite possible that in a 12 round fight 3 or more rounds would be scored as even. I think we can agree on that point. As most of the other rounds could possible be tough close rounds also. The judges would be then scoring it for one fighter or the other. But of course not all going for the same man in the same round. ( there humans ) and get things wrong at times

Problem is in the game is this. Lets call the judges robots there perfect, and every round they all can pick the correct score. So if nothing is done to stop this and its left at that, it means that all robots will score the same rounds a draw or pick the same fighter as each other to win the round. To avoid this, there has to be a percentage inbuilt in the program that throws up a chance that the computer judges do not all score the fight the correct way.
So that one robot gives the losing fighter the round, while maybe the other two go and pick the winner. That way you avoid all the perfect robots being correct for every round. and all scoring the rounds the same way.

Problem is its getting the % right. I think maybe its not working out correct and the bar has to be raised. But in truth only our programmer will know the reason.

The programmer thinks it's exactly what you've said: "Problem is its getting the % right."

10-05-2004, 06:40 AM	#1
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Scoring Since the Patch How are you guys feeling about the post-patch scoring? I seem to be getting the same score pretty much throughout the five fights I've fought since I patched. For example: Travis Simms 117-111 on all 3 cards over McKart When Trinidad stops Mayorga in the 11th, all 3 judges had it 97-93. The variation in scoring seems to be snubbed, at least on my game. Are you guys seeing this, or should I just try to fight some more and let it work its way out of this? __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

10-06-2004, 04:16 AM	#6
Andreas Raht Administrator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hollern/Stade/Germany Posts: 8,992	Thank you very much, that helps us a lot! We're of course also looking at the scoring now and will fix it ASAP. __________________ Andreas Raht andreas@ootpdevelopments.com Out of the Park Developments

10-06-2004, 09:34 AM	#9
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Two closely matched fighters Charley Burley v Ray Robinson over one thousands bouts will have about I fight in 10 ending in a draw. This is about right.They are so closely matched that often there is only 2 pts difference between the winner and loser at the end of the fight. Now imagine that fight for real being scored by 3 judges who are not on Kings payroll (so to speak) Every round is going to be pretty close so its quite possible that in a 12 round fight 3 or more rounds would be scored as even. I think we can agree on that point. As most of the other rounds could possible be tough close rounds also. The judges would have a hard time deciding who in fact did win the round. Of course they cant keep scoring rounds even so they have to favour one fighter or the other. (There only human) and get things wrong at times hence the Judges would have a difference of opinion as to who won the round and this would then be reflected on there score cards. Problem is in the game is this. Lets call the judges robots there perfect, and every round they all can pick the correct score. So if nothing is done to stop this and its left at that, it means that all robots will score the same rounds a draw or pick the same fighter as each other to win the round. To avoid this, there has to be a percentage inbuilt in the program that throws up a chance that the computer judges do not all score the fight the correct way. So that one robot gives the losing fighter the round, while maybe the other two go and pick the winner. That way you avoid all the perfect robots being correct for every round. and all scoring the rounds the same way. Problem is its getting the % right. I think maybe its not working out correct and the bar has to be raised. But in truth only our programmer will know the reason. Last edited by wildhawke11; 10-06-2004 at 09:55 AM.

10-05-2004, 08:18 AM	#2
Tom Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 124	Have you used different judges that have a tendency to award rounds differently? This can make a difference. Let me know.

10-05-2004, 06:55 PM	#3
javier_83 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,091	i am going to check i want to help in this forum for this game

10-05-2004, 08:09 PM	#4
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 841	I ran a bunch of matches to look at this. I see a lot of decisions with the judges ruling the same way, but the larger issue I see (and possibly what is causing the same decisions) is that there are way too many rounds being scored a draw. I ran 19 fights (3 times each) for a total of 57 fights simmed. I'd say all but about 3 or 4 had a fight in which all 3 judges had at least 1 round even (and 2 of those were 1st round KOs) with at least 1/2 of them having each judge scoring multiple rounds even. I saw one fight were 2 judges had 5 rounds scored even (the other had 4). One fight, all 3 judges scored the last 3 rounds even. (EDIT: And the vast majority of the time where a round was scored even, all 3 judges scored it even. So these draw rounds aren't all over the place. The judges are basically scoring the same rounds even) All fights were between fighters that were within 2 Overall Rating points from each other and were 12 rounds.

10-05-2004, 09:10 PM	#5
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 841	I've been doing a bigger test. I simmed a lot of fights and here are the stats so far (about 1/10th of the way through, dunno if I'll get through it all) So far, I've seen 73 fights of varying length (due ot stoppage). The max they could go is 12. Since there are three judges, I multiply all of the total rounds I've seen (594, average of just over 8 rounds per fight) by 3 (giving a total of 1782 judged rounds). There were 356 even rounds scored by the 3 judges in those 1782 judged rounds. That gives a 20% (19.9776% to be exact) of scores given out by the judges were even rounds. 58 of the 73 fights had at least 1 judge score a round even (note: These include the fights that ended with a KO in the 2nd or 3rd round...and there were some of those that had an even round too). 47 of the 73 fights had all 3 judges score at least 1 round even (Again, including those that ended in the 2nd or 3rd round on). Now those two I don't see as big deals. It's far from unusual to see a round scored even in a fight, a little more unusual to see all 3 judges score a round even (the vast majority of the time, it was the same round). 34 out of 73 fights had all 3 judges score at least 2 rounds even. I think it's starting to become a big deal. This is just under half (46.5%) of all fights and there were at least 2 rounds scored even by all 3 judges in those fights. I fi took out all of the 2 or 3 round fights, I'd probably go ofer the 50% mark. 23 out of 73 fights had at least 1 judge score 3 rounds even. In all 23 of these fights, all 3 judges scored at least two rounds even. To clear that up, of those 34 fights in which all 3 judges scored at least 2 rounds even, only 11 of them didn't have a judge score 3 or more rounds even. 16 out of 73 (21.9%) fights had all 3 judges score at least 3 rounds even. 6 out of 73 (8.2%) fights had all 3 judges score at least 4 rounds even. There were 2 fights that had all 3 judges scoring 6 rounds even. I'm about to leave for the night, so I probably won't be able to provide more details. (Also, please realize I'm doing this to *help* the developers and not to bash them or laugh at a bug or mistake. There is clearly something wrong with the scoring of the rounds and I want to help them figure out scope of the problem and maybe help them get to the source of the problem. I'm a programmer too, I know how tough it is to find bugs on your own. )

10-06-2004, 04:24 AM	#7
Gunsmoke All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,012	Excellent news Andreas, it's a pity that something like this fell through the net in what was otherwise an excellent patch.