Barry Bonds and special career algorithms.

Stephen19 · 08-24-2004, 12:46 AM

My question is whether anyone has seen anything in their leagues that is comparable to what Barry Bonds has done in his career.
Meaning the player is a 5 star player with superstar stats for most of his career and then actually exceeds those stats and performs at a 6 star rate for 3+ years all the way to the age of 40.
If so, I'd love to see some examples of something similar to what Bonds has done.
I've never been that lucky so far.
Perhaps the question should be whether such a career path is even possible in the game.
Since it's so rare, maybe it's not even in the wide variety of player development algorithm's inputted into the game.
If this is the case, will there be something similar added for the future? It would be nice to occasionally, even if it's extremely rare, to see someone go up in ratings as they get older and surpass their already amazing career totals.
I've had players play until they are 40, 41 and 42, but never at a standard that led the league in many categories, specifically obliterating the walk and on base percentage records and even leading in slugging pctg by a wide margin over some truly great players like Bonds is doing.

RMXO · 08-24-2004, 03:53 AM

this is how Barry's career ended in my league. he ended up on top. it would be hard to dublicate but there is always that possiblity.............

shucks let me shrink the file & i will show you what Barry's stats was.

Cuss16 · 08-24-2004, 04:30 AM

I think this may be more commmon, if even possible, in pitchers more than in batters. I have yet to see this in OOTP6, however i know that this has happened in the previous verisons of ootp, although it was very rare and I have only been able to see a couple of players at that caliber.

Cowboys3356 · 08-24-2004, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMXO

this is how Barry's career ended in my league. he ended up on top. it would be hard to dublicate but there is always that possiblity.............

shucks let me shrink the file & i will show you what Barry's stats was.

I think the question is not whether Barry's career ends that way after you start with a 2004 league file like Halofan,etc but if you have ever seen a player go from rookie to the player that Bonds is today.

I have never seen it and do not believe OOTP is programmed to allow that to happen. OOTP is much better with aging players but I think what Bonds is doing is impossible to recreate. But considering that we will probably never see another Bonds in real life, I don't think I would want to see it in OOTP either unless he was on my team!!!

O-Man · 08-24-2004, 07:02 AM

Let's keep in mind, Barry Bonds is kind of unprecedented.
His 73 home runs were unprecedented.
The fear the pitchers have for him that cause him to have a walk total/OBP that OOTP can only dream of.
And the fact that he decided to show up and break all sorts of records once he turned 36.

I'm not sure we can reprogram the algothyrms just to accomodate me to him, do you think? I'm not sure what hes accomplished is realistic.

But you bring up good points.

sporr · 08-24-2004, 10:56 AM

That's exactly right. Bonds breaks all of the rules of what we know about hitters. He is totally off the charts in terms of walks (and especially intentional walks). I don't think there is any possible way to program the game to handle a single player in a totally different way than all of the others. Until that happens, it's doubtful that you'll see a player that comes close to Bonds.

ctorg · 08-24-2004, 12:22 PM

I can't say I've had a Bonds level of player, but I have had players who had their best seasons around his age and even wom MVPs hovering around 40, then retiring a season or two later. They are very rare indeed, but they do show up.

Ruth is another player that's hard to get in the game in that he stands so far above all his peers. If you're running an early 20th century league with fictional players and you want a Ruth type player to come along, you have to make him. It just won't happen otherwise.

cgh3rd · 08-24-2004, 01:11 PM

I guess to be realistic the game should replicate roid use in some way. Bonds does show what can become of a great player when they are properly medicated. I hope for his sake personally it does not come back to haunt him. As you can tell I'm extremely skeptical his numbers. He was a hall of famer before 73 so I credit him for his accomplishments prior. I would bet that he sold his sold to the devil to do what he has been doing over the past few years. I don't drink the koo-aid MLB and ESPN send around about all of these sluggers. BTW, I'm a life long Cards fan who also believe Mac and Sosa were roided up as well. It is such a shame the ruin that has come to the HR numbers, career and season, over the past 10 years because of rampant abuse.

I set my leagues up for a mix of 50's and 80's style play. So I doubt I would see the kind of numbers Bonds has put up in the game. I guess it is my form of drug testing.

disposableheros · 08-24-2004, 02:00 PM

Kemp · 08-24-2004, 02:58 PM

I ran a 150 year test sim recently and came across a number of strange development curves. There was one guy who was a pretty solid hitter for about 15 years (with averages ranging from .330 to .310). His averages began to decline as he approached 40 (I think he went from .320 to .311 to .306 or something). Then suddenly, BAM! He hit .406 at age 40. He dropped back off the next year so it was a total fluke but it was still kind of cool.

I figure the only way OOTP could create a Barry Bonds type player is with a series of long-shot talent bumps towards the end of a players career.

FamundaCheese · 08-24-2004, 05:03 PM

I think to make the game more realistic they should offer an option where you can make the player take an injection of horse steroids once a week for 5 years. Then and just then maybe we will see some results comparable to what Barry "Its natural muscle, i swear" Bonds has done.

neohemp · 08-24-2004, 05:15 PM

Yeah, I had that happen with Randy Johnson. He took a HUGE bump in ratings at like 42 or 43, then dominated until an untimely injury (where he was 8-0 with a 1.24 ERA) caused him to reduce back to regular Randy.

jmm8356 · 08-24-2004, 05:25 PM

Can we all get behind the idea that to "get a bump" means up, and to "take a bump" means down?

Cowboys3356 · 08-24-2004, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgh3rd

I guess to be realistic the game should replicate roid use in some way. Bonds does show what can become of a great player when they are properly medicated. I hope for his sake personally it does not come back to haunt him. As you can tell I'm extremely skeptical his numbers. He was a hall of famer before 73 so I credit him for his accomplishments prior. I would bet that he sold his sold to the devil to do what he has been doing over the past few years. I don't drink the koo-aid MLB and ESPN send around about all of these sluggers. BTW, I'm a life long Cards fan who also believe Mac and Sosa were roided up as well. It is such a shame the ruin that has come to the HR numbers, career and season, over the past 10 years because of rampant abuse.

I set my leagues up for a mix of 50's and 80's style play. So I doubt I would see the kind of numbers Bonds has put up in the game. I guess it is my form of drug testing.

Sounds like a great feature for OOTP 7! You could let your players get on the juice but there would be a chance of certain negative side effects, etc. Perhaps then we could finally recreate Barry Bonds' type numbers.

danwaechter · 08-24-2004, 05:41 PM

Bonds type steroid use in OOTP would be interesting, but it wouldnt be worth it since it wouldnt be possible to see how enormously large their heads get.

Stephen19 · 08-24-2004, 07:24 PM

Well the main point of this question wasn't to start WWIII about who does or doesn't use steroids, but to see if it's possible at all to recreate the stats of Bonds.
I don't think walks are a result of steroids though. They are a result of Bonds having a good eye at the plate since he was young and the manager's fear of what he'll do if they pitch to him.
Many players have more HR's than Bonds and they still get pitched to and let's face it, if you want to label the best HR hitters as steroid users, then it still doesn't account for why other players don't get walked close to twice a game.
Why doesn't A Rod get walked? Or Pujols? Or Whoever. It's not like they can't hit.
Basically what's happening with Bonds is like a myth that's being created in front of our eyes. One of those stories you hear about but aren't sure is true. Managers are going over board when they should just pitch to him and he'd probably be hitting .280 by now.
It's more than who is the biggest, strongest, player around. It's about a player who strikes fear into the hearts of managers. Someone who has improved with age, including his average and on base percentage, while still leading the league in slugging pctg.
Tons of players have used some type of supplement, but do they have the same stats as Bonds? No, cause it's more than strength, it's talent.
Again, I was more interested in the people who have had some success stories of guys achieving greatness at 38+ years of age and thankfully some people responded with some good stories about that.
When I asked if the game could simulate Bonds like stats, I didn't mean exactly, but something along those lines, where it allows for a player to increase ratings when they are older, since it does happen.
I do think it can happen to a degree as Kemp and neohemp pointed out with their players/leagues. That's good to see. I just hope I see something like that, because it would be fun to see in a league.

FamundaCheese · 08-24-2004, 07:44 PM

Its easy to have a good eye for balls when the size of your eye and the size of the part of your brain that deals with vision has increase by 30%!

Stephen19 · 08-24-2004, 08:05 PM

That's a mighty big increase in his eyes. Wonder why it never helped Canseco draw walks or improve his eyes or the other 100's that may have taken some kind of performance enhacning drug. Must be just a special thing for Bonds.
I'm pretty sure there's many guys that used steroids that still hit .200 and couldn't hit a HR if their life depended on it.
Again, this discussion is more for Talk Sports board.
Mine was simply about the game and how the algorithms may or may not be able to replicate such things as Bonds' last few seasons.

cgh3rd · 08-24-2004, 11:02 PM

The reason he gets the walk totals is directly related to his dramatic increase in power from 99 to 01. He was actually starting an appropiate decline for his age after 1996 then suddenly he more than doubles his HR total (per season) in two seasons. His BBs then begin to go through the roof. His performance is such an aberration. I would imagine the game could be coded so that every 20 years infuse the possibility of a Bonds like performance into a single player but whether it would come to pass would depend on other talent variables. So this would make it possible for the kind of numbers you are talking about to happen only once every 100 years. Is that more on topic?

Stephen19 · 08-24-2004, 11:32 PM

Hi cgh3rd
As I looked back at Bonds early stats, I notice he had his breakout year for HR's in 1993, when he hit 46. He then had 37 the next year in only 112 games, which prorates to 53 HR, he then had an off year and was back hitting 40+ again.
I personally don't think it was really a drastic increase in power. He always had it, and then as with most power hitters, he continued to improve the power with age.
As for his monster year in 2001, it came after he hit 49 in 143 games the year before.
His walks are probably a combination of many things, but mostly I'd say it's over compensating on the managers part. Giving Bonds too much respect and assuming he'll hit a HR every in every bat when that's simply not gonna happen.
Then again if nobody hits after he's walked, it sure doesn't hurt to walk him. Just adds to his mystique
I do agree that his stats are perhaps impossible to create an algorithm for, but even if it's not possible, it's still interesting to see how other people have done with older players in OOTP 6.
I had a guy win the Cy Young at 39 back in OOTP 5, but I have only had OOTP 6 for a couple weeks now so I haven't had a chance to see how things work in this version when it comes to the aging development and retiring.
I wouldn't even mind having a chance to have a player have Bonds like abilities come up once every 20 years. It is something to look forward to.

08-24-2004, 12:46 AM	#1
Stephen19 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 50	Barry Bonds and special career algorithms. My question is whether anyone has seen anything in their leagues that is comparable to what Barry Bonds has done in his career. Meaning the player is a 5 star player with superstar stats for most of his career and then actually exceeds those stats and performs at a 6 star rate for 3+ years all the way to the age of 40. If so, I'd love to see some examples of something similar to what Bonds has done. I've never been that lucky so far. Perhaps the question should be whether such a career path is even possible in the game. Since it's so rare, maybe it's not even in the wide variety of player development algorithm's inputted into the game. If this is the case, will there be something similar added for the future? It would be nice to occasionally, even if it's extremely rare, to see someone go up in ratings as they get older and surpass their already amazing career totals. I've had players play until they are 40, 41 and 42, but never at a standard that led the league in many categories, specifically obliterating the walk and on base percentage records and even leading in slugging pctg by a wide margin over some truly great players like Bonds is doing.

08-24-2004, 03:53 AM	#2
RMXO Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 88	this is how Barry's career ended in my league. he ended up on top. it would be hard to dublicate but there is always that possiblity............. shucks let me shrink the file & i will show you what Barry's stats was. Last edited by RMXO; 08-24-2004 at 03:56 AM.

08-24-2004, 04:30 AM	#3
Cuss16 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: BC, CANADA Posts: 2,994	I think this may be more commmon, if even possible, in pitchers more than in batters. I have yet to see this in OOTP6, however i know that this has happened in the previous verisons of ootp, although it was very rare and I have only been able to see a couple of players at that caliber. __________________

08-24-2004, 12:22 PM	#7
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I can't say I've had a Bonds level of player, but I have had players who had their best seasons around his age and even wom MVPs hovering around 40, then retiring a season or two later. They are very rare indeed, but they do show up. Ruth is another player that's hard to get in the game in that he stands so far above all his peers. If you're running an early 20th century league with fictional players and you want a Ruth type player to come along, you have to make him. It just won't happen otherwise. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

08-24-2004, 01:11 PM	#8
cgh3rd Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 83	I guess to be realistic the game should replicate roid use in some way. Bonds does show what can become of a great player when they are properly medicated. I hope for his sake personally it does not come back to haunt him. As you can tell I'm extremely skeptical his numbers. He was a hall of famer before 73 so I credit him for his accomplishments prior. I would bet that he sold his sold to the devil to do what he has been doing over the past few years. I don't drink the koo-aid MLB and ESPN send around about all of these sluggers. BTW, I'm a life long Cards fan who also believe Mac and Sosa were roided up as well. It is such a shame the ruin that has come to the HR numbers, career and season, over the past 10 years because of rampant abuse. I set my leagues up for a mix of 50's and 80's style play. So I doubt I would see the kind of numbers Bonds has put up in the game. I guess it is my form of drug testing. __________________ Thanks, Chuck Senior member on the board with the least amount of posts.

08-24-2004, 07:02 AM	#5
O-Man Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 231	Let's keep in mind, Barry Bonds is kind of unprecedented. His 73 home runs were unprecedented. The fear the pitchers have for him that cause him to have a walk total/OBP that OOTP can only dream of. And the fact that he decided to show up and break all sorts of records once he turned 36. I'm not sure we can reprogram the algothyrms just to accomodate me to him, do you think? I'm not sure what hes accomplished is realistic. But you bring up good points.

08-24-2004, 10:56 AM	#6
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	That's exactly right. Bonds breaks all of the rules of what we know about hitters. He is totally off the charts in terms of walks (and especially intentional walks). I don't think there is any possible way to program the game to handle a single player in a totally different way than all of the others. Until that happens, it's doubtful that you'll see a player that comes close to Bonds.

08-24-2004, 02:00 PM	#9
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	__________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

08-24-2004, 02:58 PM	#10
Kemp All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,181	I ran a 150 year test sim recently and came across a number of strange development curves. There was one guy who was a pretty solid hitter for about 15 years (with averages ranging from .330 to .310). His averages began to decline as he approached 40 (I think he went from .320 to .311 to .306 or something). Then suddenly, BAM! He hit .406 at age 40. He dropped back off the next year so it was a total fluke but it was still kind of cool. I figure the only way OOTP could create a Barry Bonds type player is with a series of long-shot talent bumps towards the end of a players career.

08-24-2004, 05:03 PM	#11
FamundaCheese Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 116	I think to make the game more realistic they should offer an option where you can make the player take an injection of horse steroids once a week for 5 years. Then and just then maybe we will see some results comparable to what Barry "Its natural muscle, i swear" Bonds has done.

08-24-2004, 05:15 PM	#12
neohemp All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 551	Yeah, I had that happen with Randy Johnson. He took a HUGE bump in ratings at like 42 or 43, then dominated until an untimely injury (where he was 8-0 with a 1.24 ERA) caused him to reduce back to regular Randy.

08-24-2004, 05:25 PM	#13
jmm8356 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Lafayette IN (by way of Tonawanda NY) Posts: 1,673	Can we all get behind the idea that to "get a bump" means up, and to "take a bump" means down? __________________ Jeremy from Tonawanda --- Go Cubbies! --- Unofficial Theta Tester(tm) "Oh, we got both kinds. We got country and western!" From OOTP 6: Designated for Assignment FAQ (Includes both problems and solutions! Ooooo! )

08-24-2004, 05:41 PM	#15
danwaechter Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 67	Bonds type steroid use in OOTP would be interesting, but it wouldnt be worth it since it wouldnt be possible to see how enormously large their heads get.

08-24-2004, 07:24 PM	#16
Stephen19 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 50	Well the main point of this question wasn't to start WWIII about who does or doesn't use steroids, but to see if it's possible at all to recreate the stats of Bonds. I don't think walks are a result of steroids though. They are a result of Bonds having a good eye at the plate since he was young and the manager's fear of what he'll do if they pitch to him. Many players have more HR's than Bonds and they still get pitched to and let's face it, if you want to label the best HR hitters as steroid users, then it still doesn't account for why other players don't get walked close to twice a game. Why doesn't A Rod get walked? Or Pujols? Or Whoever. It's not like they can't hit. Basically what's happening with Bonds is like a myth that's being created in front of our eyes. One of those stories you hear about but aren't sure is true. Managers are going over board when they should just pitch to him and he'd probably be hitting .280 by now. It's more than who is the biggest, strongest, player around. It's about a player who strikes fear into the hearts of managers. Someone who has improved with age, including his average and on base percentage, while still leading the league in slugging pctg. Tons of players have used some type of supplement, but do they have the same stats as Bonds? No, cause it's more than strength, it's talent. Again, I was more interested in the people who have had some success stories of guys achieving greatness at 38+ years of age and thankfully some people responded with some good stories about that. When I asked if the game could simulate Bonds like stats, I didn't mean exactly, but something along those lines, where it allows for a player to increase ratings when they are older, since it does happen. I do think it can happen to a degree as Kemp and neohemp pointed out with their players/leagues. That's good to see. I just hope I see something like that, because it would be fun to see in a league.

08-24-2004, 07:44 PM	#17
FamundaCheese Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 116	Its easy to have a good eye for balls when the size of your eye and the size of the part of your brain that deals with vision has increase by 30%!

08-24-2004, 08:05 PM	#18
Stephen19 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 50	That's a mighty big increase in his eyes. Wonder why it never helped Canseco draw walks or improve his eyes or the other 100's that may have taken some kind of performance enhacning drug. Must be just a special thing for Bonds. I'm pretty sure there's many guys that used steroids that still hit .200 and couldn't hit a HR if their life depended on it. Again, this discussion is more for Talk Sports board. Mine was simply about the game and how the algorithms may or may not be able to replicate such things as Bonds' last few seasons.

08-24-2004, 11:02 PM	#19
cgh3rd Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 83	The reason he gets the walk totals is directly related to his dramatic increase in power from 99 to 01. He was actually starting an appropiate decline for his age after 1996 then suddenly he more than doubles his HR total (per season) in two seasons. His BBs then begin to go through the roof. His performance is such an aberration. I would imagine the game could be coded so that every 20 years infuse the possibility of a Bonds like performance into a single player but whether it would come to pass would depend on other talent variables. So this would make it possible for the kind of numbers you are talking about to happen only once every 100 years. Is that more on topic? __________________ Thanks, Chuck Senior member on the board with the least amount of posts.

08-24-2004, 11:32 PM	#20
Stephen19 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 50	Hi cgh3rd As I looked back at Bonds early stats, I notice he had his breakout year for HR's in 1993, when he hit 46. He then had 37 the next year in only 112 games, which prorates to 53 HR, he then had an off year and was back hitting 40+ again. I personally don't think it was really a drastic increase in power. He always had it, and then as with most power hitters, he continued to improve the power with age. As for his monster year in 2001, it came after he hit 49 in 143 games the year before. His walks are probably a combination of many things, but mostly I'd say it's over compensating on the managers part. Giving Bonds too much respect and assuming he'll hit a HR every in every bat when that's simply not gonna happen. Then again if nobody hits after he's walked, it sure doesn't hurt to walk him. Just adds to his mystique I do agree that his stats are perhaps impossible to create an algorithm for, but even if it's not possible, it's still interesting to see how other people have done with older players in OOTP 6. I had a guy win the Cy Young at 39 back in OOTP 5, but I have only had OOTP 6 for a couple weeks now so I haven't had a chance to see how things work in this version when it comes to the aging development and retiring. I wouldn't even mind having a chance to have a player have Bonds like abilities come up once every 20 years. It is something to look forward to.