AI pinch hitting for cleanup hitter

markprior22 · 07-11-2004, 11:27 AM

It sure seems like I am seeing this alot lately in OOTP. I play out most of my games and every couple of games the AI pinch hits for the 4th hitter in late innings. I'm not saying this "never" happens IRL but I don't think a manager is going to make many switches for a cleanup hitter based on right handed or left handed pitching.

PSUColonel · 07-11-2004, 11:31 AM

well, you may be correct that there is a problem here- although I can think of a couple of reasons why it COULD make sense also. One- perhaps the cleanup hitter is signifigantly worse from one side of the plate (CBLCardinals Pat Burell) and may also have a tendency to strike out and not get the bat on the ball. (again Pat Burell- and Jim Thome)

Matter2003 · 07-11-2004, 12:40 PM

hmm...I have never seen this in any of my games...

I have seen them pinch hit a lot for the 7th and 8th hitters tho...

Matter2003

originalgamer · 07-11-2004, 03:21 PM

I have 2 leftys in my lineup who have great #s, but have very low avg against lefty pitchers. Thinking that could be a prob in some cases I have a couple good r handed guys on the bench for late innings. Heres were it gets silly: the ai will change pitchers on a regular basis so these guys almost never have to be pinch hit for. there will be a lefty on the mound and they almost always take him out and go with a righty against these guys, even if the guy only faces one batter. Dont understand why this happens, its the oposite of what you would expect.

obaslg · 07-11-2004, 03:38 PM

I've seen lots of that kind of thing in blowouts. As often happens IRL, a sub gets a little playing time when it doesn't matter. The weird thing in the game is that the AI always does this via pinch hitting, instead of fielding subs.

Falcon52 · 07-11-2004, 03:55 PM

I've seen this happen a few times, and the pinch hitter isn't much, if at all, better than the guy he replaces.

It would be like this: Power hitting lefty up to bat. I bring in a lefty. He brings in a pinch hitter who is batting .185 on the season, but just happens to have a 50 contact vs. lefties, as opposed to the slugger he pulled who only has a 48 contact vs. lefties. Forget the fact that the power hitter has a 80 power vs. both hands.

IMO, the AI logic still needs some work. I've seen some pretty weird looking lineups as well. Stuff where they'll have the league leader in homers batting 8th, just because his average is hovering around .260, but have a guy with zero power (maybe 8 or so homers over a full season) batting cleanup because he's a .300 hitter. I'm sure this kind of thing happens ONCE in a while in real life, but I'm sure if you look at all 30 major league teams' batting lineups, it'd be quite rare to find that.

obaslg · 07-11-2004, 05:25 PM

Aside from a few outstanding bugs and the depth chart mess, the in-game AI is by far the weakest part of the game. Unfortunately, I bet it's also the hardest to program.

Anonymous Ghost · 07-11-2004, 07:21 PM

Yeah, I agree that the AI gives way too much weight to L/R splits.

Partly, this might be the results of the third-party rosters used. IMHO, neither Halofan's or CBL's do an adequate job of accounting for random chance in the calculation of platoon splits, as there are too many radical differences between the two. More moderate platoon splits would yield superior results, IMHO.

JDOldSchool · 07-11-2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by originalgamer

I have 2 leftys in my lineup who have great #s, but have very low avg against lefty pitchers. Thinking that could be a prob in some cases I have a couple good r handed guys on the bench for late innings. Heres were it gets silly: the ai will change pitchers on a regular basis so these guys almost never have to be pinch hit for. there will be a lefty on the mound and they almost always take him out and go with a righty against these guys, even if the guy only faces one batter. Dont understand why this happens, its the oposite of what you would expect.

That's because the single-worst aspect of gameplay in OOTP continues to be how the AI uses the bullpens. It has no idea what to do ever.

JDOldSchool · 07-11-2004, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous Ghost

Yeah, I agree that the AI gives way too much weight to L/R splits.

Partly, this might be the results of the third-party rosters used. IMHO, neither Halofan's or CBL's do an adequate job of accounting for random chance in the calculation of platoon splits, as there are too many radical differences between the two. More moderate platoon splits would yield superior results, IMHO.

I feel the game doesn't give ANY weight to the splits when deciding what relievers to use. When I play out games, my bullpen is always one of the tops in the league and I rarely have the best pitchers on paper. The same bullpen is atrocious when games are simmed out. That's because a lefty specialist is never used as such by the AI.

These numbers are from June 23 of a league I'm currently playing:

Mike Myers is the prototypical lefty specialist. The numbers for lefties against Myers are .222/.290/.333. That's in 27 at bats. He's very effective against lefties, but for some reason, righties have 61 at bats against him. They crush him: .328/.425/.475. His overall ERA is 6.65 in 21.2 IP.

If the AI paid proper attention to Myers' (and others just like him) splits, he would be a much more effective pitcher. His ERA would probably be in the 3s, not the 6s. Obviously no lefty specialist faces ONLY lefties, but to face more than twice as many right-handed hitters is just poor AI in-game management.

Falcon52 · 07-11-2004, 10:07 PM

I agree about the simmed results hammering any lefty specialists.

I always have a 5-star lefty on the staff, and his ERA is always atrocious because he seems to always be put in vs. righties. This is one of the main reasons I try to draft righties all the time, regardless if they're not as good as the lefty.

obaslg · 07-11-2004, 11:26 PM

I'm in the camp that says the AI uses the L/R splits far too little. Lefty specialists stay in the game for 2 full innings while the righties hammer them. Righty hitters with good overall numbers consistently pinch hit for clearly superior lefty platooners.

KurtBevacqua · 07-12-2004, 09:53 AM

Have you changed the cleanup hitter's pinch hit setting in your team's strategy window? I find if you set him to never be pinch hit for this problem will go away. Otherwise he has as much chance to be pinch hit for as any other player in the lineup.

KurtBevacqua · 07-12-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obaslg

I'm in the camp that says the AI uses the L/R splits far too little. Lefty specialists stay in the game for 2 full innings while the righties hammer them. Righty hitters with good overall numbers consistently pinch hit for clearly superior lefty platooners.

Like the pinch hitting issue, this can be addressed in the team strategy window where you can choose how much you want to stress L/L matchups. It may not entirely solve AI deficiencies in this area, but it gives you a means to influence how your team does it.

Cooker · 07-12-2004, 10:13 AM

Although I agree with everything that's been said about the AI not using situational lefties properly, I also think the AI in OOTP6 uses relief pitchers better than it did in OOTP5.

I have a right-handed RF who bats third, a lefty DH hitting cleanup, and a right-handed 1B who hits fifth. My RF, though right-handed, is much better against right-handed pitching. I frequently see the AI bring in a lefty to pitch to my RF and my DH, and then remove him for a right-handed reliever to pitch to my 1B.

I never saw this in version 5. So though it's still not perfect, I'm seeing a little bit more "logic" in the AI's bullpen handling in 6.03.

markprior22 · 07-12-2004, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Have you changed the cleanup hitter's pinch hit setting in your team's strategy window? I find if you set him to never be pinch hit for this problem will go away. Otherwise he has as much chance to be pinch hit for as any other player in the lineup.

I'm talking about the AI for the team I'm playing against.

ctorg · 07-12-2004, 11:50 AM

I've seen this happen, too. I find it really strange.

Rizon · 07-12-2004, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obaslg

I've seen lots of that kind of thing in blowouts. As often happens IRL, a sub gets a little playing time when it doesn't matter. The weird thing in the game is that the AI always does this via pinch hitting, instead of fielding subs.

I've seen it in blowouts too.

JDOldSchool · 07-12-2004, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Like the pinch hitting issue, this can be addressed in the team strategy window where you can choose how much you want to stress L/L matchups. It may not entirely solve AI deficiencies in this area, but it gives you a means to influence how your team does it.

It flat out doesn't work. You can slide that bar all the way over and the lefty specialist will still face 3-4 times more righties than lefties.

07-11-2004, 11:27 AM	#1
markprior22 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, illinois Posts: 1,243	AI pinch hitting for cleanup hitter It sure seems like I am seeing this alot lately in OOTP. I play out most of my games and every couple of games the AI pinch hits for the 4th hitter in late innings. I'm not saying this "never" happens IRL but I don't think a manager is going to make many switches for a cleanup hitter based on right handed or left handed pitching.

07-11-2004, 03:55 PM	#6
Falcon52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 615	I've seen this happen a few times, and the pinch hitter isn't much, if at all, better than the guy he replaces. It would be like this: Power hitting lefty up to bat. I bring in a lefty. He brings in a pinch hitter who is batting .185 on the season, but just happens to have a 50 contact vs. lefties, as opposed to the slugger he pulled who only has a 48 contact vs. lefties. Forget the fact that the power hitter has a 80 power vs. both hands. IMO, the AI logic still needs some work. I've seen some pretty weird looking lineups as well. Stuff where they'll have the league leader in homers batting 8th, just because his average is hovering around .260, but have a guy with zero power (maybe 8 or so homers over a full season) batting cleanup because he's a .300 hitter. I'm sure this kind of thing happens ONCE in a while in real life, but I'm sure if you look at all 30 major league teams' batting lineups, it'd be quite rare to find that. __________________ "D-FENCE! D-FENCE!"

07-11-2004, 10:07 PM	#11
Falcon52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 615	I agree about the simmed results hammering any lefty specialists. I always have a 5-star lefty on the staff, and his ERA is always atrocious because he seems to always be put in vs. righties. This is one of the main reasons I try to draft righties all the time, regardless if they're not as good as the lefty. __________________ "D-FENCE! D-FENCE!"

07-12-2004, 09:53 AM	#13
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	Have you changed the cleanup hitter's pinch hit setting in your team's strategy window? I find if you set him to never be pinch hit for this problem will go away. Otherwise he has as much chance to be pinch hit for as any other player in the lineup. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

07-12-2004, 11:50 AM	#17
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I've seen this happen, too. I find it really strange. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

07-11-2004, 11:31 AM	#2
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,139	well, you may be correct that there is a problem here- although I can think of a couple of reasons why it COULD make sense also. One- perhaps the cleanup hitter is signifigantly worse from one side of the plate (CBLCardinals Pat Burell) and may also have a tendency to strike out and not get the bat on the ball. (again Pat Burell- and Jim Thome)

07-11-2004, 12:40 PM	#3
Matter2003 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: In the vicinity of Buffalo,NY Posts: 1,634	hmm...I have never seen this in any of my games... I have seen them pinch hit a lot for the 7th and 8th hitters tho... Matter2003

07-11-2004, 03:21 PM	#4
originalgamer Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 61	I have 2 leftys in my lineup who have great #s, but have very low avg against lefty pitchers. Thinking that could be a prob in some cases I have a couple good r handed guys on the bench for late innings. Heres were it gets silly: the ai will change pitchers on a regular basis so these guys almost never have to be pinch hit for. there will be a lefty on the mound and they almost always take him out and go with a righty against these guys, even if the guy only faces one batter. Dont understand why this happens, its the oposite of what you would expect.

07-11-2004, 03:38 PM	#5
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I've seen lots of that kind of thing in blowouts. As often happens IRL, a sub gets a little playing time when it doesn't matter. The weird thing in the game is that the AI always does this via pinch hitting, instead of fielding subs.

07-11-2004, 05:25 PM	#7
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	Aside from a few outstanding bugs and the depth chart mess, the in-game AI is by far the weakest part of the game. Unfortunately, I bet it's also the hardest to program.

07-11-2004, 07:21 PM	#8
Anonymous Ghost All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 751	Yeah, I agree that the AI gives way too much weight to L/R splits. Partly, this might be the results of the third-party rosters used. IMHO, neither Halofan's or CBL's do an adequate job of accounting for random chance in the calculation of platoon splits, as there are too many radical differences between the two. More moderate platoon splits would yield superior results, IMHO.

07-11-2004, 11:26 PM	#12
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I'm in the camp that says the AI uses the L/R splits far too little. Lefty specialists stay in the game for 2 full innings while the righties hammer them. Righty hitters with good overall numbers consistently pinch hit for clearly superior lefty platooners.

07-12-2004, 10:13 AM	#15
Cooker All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 592	Although I agree with everything that's been said about the AI not using situational lefties properly, I also think the AI in OOTP6 uses relief pitchers better than it did in OOTP5. I have a right-handed RF who bats third, a lefty DH hitting cleanup, and a right-handed 1B who hits fifth. My RF, though right-handed, is much better against right-handed pitching. I frequently see the AI bring in a lefty to pitch to my RF and my DH, and then remove him for a right-handed reliever to pitch to my 1B. I never saw this in version 5. So though it's still not perfect, I'm seeing a little bit more "logic" in the AI's bullpen handling in 6.03.