Active Player HOF Debate: Catcher

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 07:35 PM

Locks

Mike Piazza - Horrible defense, but the best hitter at the position in all of history. In if he retires today and among the top handful of players at the position all-time.

Ivan Rodriguez - Among the best defenders in the history of the position and a fine hitter to boot. Could retire now and would be in.

Possible

Javier Lopez - Good defender, good but overrated hitter. Still just 33 and coming off his best season. If he reaches 300 home runs (he has 222), he will likely get in with the voters. Still doesn't have my vote.

Jorge Posada - Great hitter, solid defender. Got a late start due to the Yankees obsession with Joe Girardi. Probably won't make it, but a great player.

yankeesrule · 06-14-2004, 07:46 PM

jorge might because he still has a # of solid years ahead of him. javy though hasn't had enough solid seasons IMO

Akrobat · 06-14-2004, 07:49 PM

If Posada makes the Hall of Fame I will shoot myself. He's not even the best catcher in his own division. *cough*Varitek*cough*

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 07:50 PM

Varitek may (note emphasis on may) be better than Posada now, but Posada has had the better career so far and it ain't even close

LivnLegend · 06-14-2004, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yankeesrule
jorge might because he still has a # of solid years ahead of him. javy though hasn't had enough solid seasons IMO

I dunno...Posada is 32 and at this point other than the Championships (yes, I know that's a very big "other") has he really shown that's he better than the caliber of, say Lieberthal?(Gold Glove winner, similar batting average and power numbers).
also, Lopez is the same age as Lieberthal and Posada and he blows away Jorge in everything but OBP and World Series titles (3 to 1).

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 07:55 PM

What seperates him from Lieberthal? Well, besides that Jorge is better, he has also played a lot more

I don't think he or Javy is in yet, but I agree that Javy is ahead.

Akrobat · 06-14-2004, 07:55 PM

I call BS! Just look at their career World Series wins and you'll see Varitek is better...

Seriously, what's so great about Posada? His career average is a measley .270, and he'll be lucky if he reaches 300 homeruns. Give me a team leader in Jason Varitek anyday. Too bad Tek won't make the hall either though, considering he's so underrated he struggles to get into all-star games while Ramon Hernandez makes the team... sick sick world!

LivnLegend · 06-14-2004, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
What seperates him from Lieberthal? Well, besides that Jorge is better, he has also played a lot more

Prior to 2004:
Posada: 866 games, 9 seasons
Lieberthal: 858 games, 10 seasons

Each has 4 seasons of 400+ at bats

try again sparky

Draft Dodger · 06-14-2004, 07:59 PM

I'm with Hollis

(I should make a T-Shirt that says that)

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 07:59 PM

Well, Posada is good at the most important ability for a hitter...getting on base. For his career he is at .375 which is just sick for a catcher. Throw in 20+ homers and plenty of doubles the last four years, and you have a fine player. The only thing holding him back is playing time. The Yankees idiotic love for veteran leader Joe Girardi cost him at least three years of full-time play, perhaps more. He won't, and shouldn't, get credit for that missed time, but he has performed on a Hall of Fame level for five of the past six seasons.

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend
Prior to 2004:
Posada: 866 games, 9 seasons
Lieberthal: 858 games, 10 seasons

Each has 4 seasons of 400+ at bats

try again sparky

Interesting. I was thinking Lieberthal got hurt a lot more for some reason.

Regardless, Jorge is still a much better hitter

LivnLegend · 06-14-2004, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
The Yankees idiotic love for veteran leader Joe Girardi cost him at least three years of full-time play, perhaps more. He won't, and shouldn't, get credit for that missed time, but he has performed on a Hall of Fame level for five of the past six seasons.

That "love" may have something to do with Posada's inability to handle pitches behind the plate when he first came up. The Yanks were frustrated with his D early on and Posada did lead the league in passed balls at least once.

Posada has very nice walk totals but he also strikes out a lot. I wonder how much of his walks total is influenced by where he traditionally hit in the Yankee lineup, behind the bog boppers and in front of the 1 or 2 light hitters than usually pop up in the Yankee lineup each season (Brosius, Bellinger, Soto, Vizcaino...). Just wondering, I have no idea.

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend
That "love" may have something to do with Posada's inability to handle pitches behind the plate when he first came up. The Yanks were frustrated with his D early on and Posada did lead the league in passed balls at least once.

POoada has very nice walk totals but he also strikes out a lot. I wonder how much of his walks had to do with where he traditionally hits in the Yankee lineup, behind the bog boppers and in front of the 1 or 2 light hitters than usually pop up in the Yankee lineup each season (Brosius, Bellinger, Soto, Vizcaino...). Just wondering, I have no idea.

Hard to say, and doesn't matter so much. He still has problems handling pitches, but should have been playing anyway. He obviously wasn't/isn't hurting the Yankee staff too much since the Yankees pitchers have been just fine under his care. Whatever he loses on the defensive end (and he's actually a good defender outside of the PBs) he more than makes up for with his bat. Like I said, not enough ABs to be a HOF, but a great player who probably missed his shot because of Joe G.

Draft Dodger · 06-14-2004, 08:12 PM

plus, Jorge has better intangibles.

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 08:12 PM

Ya

LivnLegend · 06-14-2004, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
plus, Jorge has better intangibles.

Naturally.

yankeesrule · 06-14-2004, 08:38 PM

livinlegend, you proved the point. jorge has played 1 less season yet 8 more games than lieberthal.

also, my point about jorge still having a # of good years ahead of him was aimed at the fact that i'm pretty sure i remember hearing/reading something that talked about how he didn't start catching till his late teens so he hasn't been messing up his knees as long

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 08:42 PM

He's still hitting now so he may have a shot, but it will be an outside one. Catchers don't tend to last very long, and he is 32.

dougaiton · 06-14-2004, 09:30 PM

Piazza and I-Rod at a canter.

The other two, I'll say no. Lopez and Posada (I'd give the nod to Posada over Lopez) are great players, but so far behind two catchers of their generation that the gap just looks too great. It'd be like voting Olerud (cross-thread pollenation) in with Frank Thomas - one's achievements would dwarf the other's so greatly it would make you question whether the lesser player was really HOF quality at all.

Skipaway · 06-14-2004, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
He's still hitting now so he may have a shot, but it will be an outside one. Catchers don't tend to last very long, and he is 32.

Funny that Rodriguez is younger than both Lopez and Posada, but already compiled enough stats to be considered a hall-of-famer.

Javy Lopez got only one magical year in 2003, and nothing else.
Jorge Posada got higher established level than Lopez, but it's highly unlikely for him to maintain that level for 4 or 5 more years in order to get considered by HOF.

Funny stat:

Posada WARP3 + Lopez WARP3 < Rodriguez WARP3

43.4 + 45.8 < 98.3

View Poll Results: Who gets your vote?
Mike Piazza	52	82.54%
Ivan Rodriguez	53	84.13%
Javy Lopez	1	1.59%
Jorge Posada	5	7.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

06-14-2004, 07:35 PM	#1
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Active Player HOF Debate: Catcher Locks Mike Piazza - Horrible defense, but the best hitter at the position in all of history. In if he retires today and among the top handful of players at the position all-time. Ivan Rodriguez - Among the best defenders in the history of the position and a fine hitter to boot. Could retire now and would be in. Possible Javier Lopez - Good defender, good but overrated hitter. Still just 33 and coming off his best season. If he reaches 300 home runs (he has 222), he will likely get in with the voters. Still doesn't have my vote. Jorge Posada - Great hitter, solid defender. Got a late start due to the Yankees obsession with Joe Girardi. Probably won't make it, but a great player. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-14-2004, 07:49 PM	#3
Akrobat All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 922	If Posada makes the Hall of Fame I will shoot myself. He's not even the best catcher in his own division. coughVaritekcough __________________ Writers-Bloc -- Boston Saints -1990: Player to be Announced

06-14-2004, 07:50 PM	#4
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Varitek may (note emphasis on may) be better than Posada now, but Posada has had the better career so far and it ain't even close __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-14-2004, 07:55 PM	#6
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	What seperates him from Lieberthal? Well, besides that Jorge is better, he has also played a lot more I don't think he or Javy is in yet, but I agree that Javy is ahead. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-14-2004, 07:46 PM	#2
yankeesrule All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,367	jorge might because he still has a # of solid years ahead of him. javy though hasn't had enough solid seasons IMO

06-14-2004, 07:59 PM	#9
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	I'm with Hollis (I should make a T-Shirt that says that) __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

06-14-2004, 08:12 PM	#14
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	plus, Jorge has better intangibles. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

06-14-2004, 08:12 PM	#15
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Ya __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-14-2004, 08:38 PM	#17
yankeesrule All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,367	livinlegend, you proved the point. jorge has played 1 less season yet 8 more games than lieberthal. also, my point about jorge still having a # of good years ahead of him was aimed at the fact that i'm pretty sure i remember hearing/reading something that talked about how he didn't start catching till his late teens so he hasn't been messing up his knees as long

06-14-2004, 08:42 PM	#18
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	He's still hitting now so he may have a shot, but it will be an outside one. Catchers don't tend to last very long, and he is 32. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-14-2004, 09:30 PM	#19
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Piazza and I-Rod at a canter. The other two, I'll say no. Lopez and Posada (I'd give the nod to Posada over Lopez) are great players, but so far behind two catchers of their generation that the gap just looks too great. It'd be like voting Olerud (cross-thread pollenation) in with Frank Thomas - one's achievements would dwarf the other's so greatly it would make you question whether the lesser player was really HOF quality at all. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)