Endurance-Based Contract Demands?

[mrbill]

I'm wondering if anyone else sees this as an issue..

The contract-demand AI bases how much a pitcher wants from his official role (SP/MR/CL), which can result in a 25% change in demands if the same pitcher is listed as SP or MR.

The issue would be solved if endurance was the factor in demanding salary and not the official role. Yeah, it would blur the lines between closer and middle reliever, and closers should get more money, but aren't closers usually just the most talented middle reliever on the team? (Don't argue the mental aspect, we all know what Clutch means in OOTP)

The problem is for online leagues, this change happens during contract years or whatever, and people can sign pitchers for less than they deserve if they switch a starter to a middle reliever. It even happens unintentionally when using the Auto Fill Rotation button.

It just seems like endurance is a more natural talent rating to factor into contract demands, instead of whatever the official role is.

I'd think the same can be said for fielding ability, if you switch someone to DH (even if he's your A range SS), he'll ask for less money because he "is just a designated hitter".

[mrbill]

How about this... my online league is going to struggle to decide where the line is between who we "Force" to sign as an SP and who can sign as an MR.

Since there is a clear benefit to signing someone who thinks he's an MR, and there is no clear line to who is a starter and who is a reliever, how do other people deal with this issue?

Even with solo leagues, you still have to make a decision on who is a starter and who is a reliever, then sign them.

Is there any clear, fair rule that will govern a league?

[sguthrie]

This came up a while ago on the OOTP5 board. My thogught is that you should do away with SP, MR, CL all together.

As you say, endurance would be the biggest factor in determining SP or RP, and things like the clutch rating could be used to defferentiate a MR from a CL.

[mad0die]

I agree with these sentiments. I was disappointed that despite moving to a single endurance we still have the 3 different tags for pitchers. I wish we had gotten rid of those tags altogether. The enduration (or duration) indicates where you can best use a pitcher and his abilities and stats in the role you place him should dictate his contract demands. Keeping contracts tied to player tags is horrid.

[mrbill]

I never even thought about that, but its a great principle of programming.. "simplicity". I wouldn't mind the tags being there just to organize your lineup (sort by SP/MR/CL) but having them mean something is not cool.

This seems like a straightforward increase in realism for the game.

Still looking for suggestions for an online league to enforce some sort of SP/MR rules so that everyone doesnt switch their borderline starters to MR and sign them that way.

The first thought I had was if a guy starts 8-10 games in any season, he gets switched to SP for that year and the whole next year. This way if a guy goes into the pen for two whole seasons, he can be legally changed to MR/CL and paid less.

But, I hate having to come up with these kinda wacky rules, hoping for OOTP to fix it or maybe hearing some better ideas!

Thanks!

[nestajones]

Most relievers become relievers because they aren't good enough to start. Not because they don't have the endurance. Pitchers don't come into the pros with the endurance to only throw 2 innings at a time. It's just decided at some point that 2 innings maximizes their effectiveness. (After 15 years of relieving, it may be true that this is the limit of their endurance.)

[obaslg]

Both the pitching role and primary positions problems have been here a while. My question is this: Since past performance is already calculated into contract demands, why would "role" or "position" be as well? That is a pitcher who pitches more innings and gets more wins should already be more highly valued, as should players who can play catcher, shortstop, etc., whatever their "primary position" is.

I think that the part of the pitcher valuation that is based on ratings and not stats should look only at duration, not designated role, and the part of the batter evaluation that is based on ratings and not stats should look at all the positions the player can play, not the designated primary position.

[Godard]

I wonder if it would be possible (in an update) to disable the "position" button entirely, and have the primary position filled automatically by the computer based on games played (including the DH). Perhaps weighted, like 75% this year, 25% last year. Or use the last 162 service days. So if you have a SP pitch in relief enough games, his primary position will switch to MR automatically.

Doesn't solve the Closer problem though. Maybe some percentage of "Games Finished" to "Games" would trigger the position change? 40% or so?

Just brainstorming here...

[mrbill]

These are good points about the generalities of pitchers and endurance. I'm sure if Markus acknowledges this problem, he'll probably just change the contract AI to ignore the primary position and base demands off endurance instead.

Everyone agrees a pitcher is worth more if he can throw more effective pitches. The effectiveness is taken care of by his endurance rating, nothing beyond his endurance rating will be as effective. So a pitchers worth is directly related to his endurance rating, and not the role he plays. If you take an effective starter and put him in the pen, he's still worth more because he has the ability to start. Maybe he should lose that ability over time, but that seems like a random thing that happens already in the game.

_____

However, I'm still looking for real suggestions of how people deal with this problem of OOTP basing the contract demands on the listed primary position of the pitcher.

Some other leagues must acknowledge the gaping loophole here. Until there's a fix, there's got to be a good rule to keep people honest about how they pay their pitchers.

[obaslg]

However, I'm still looking for real suggestions of how people deal with this problem of OOTP basing the contract demands on the listed primary position of the pitcher.

Some other leagues must acknowledge the gaping loophole here. Until there's a fix, there's got to be a good rule to keep people honest about how they pay their pitchers.

I thought about something like this for a while, and finally ditched it as not worth the trouble. You could have a rule that you can only change role in the beginning of the season, or once per season, and you can't play a pitcher out of his appointed role, but it doesn't fix it entirely, and really hampers owners' ability to adjust for injuries.

[mrbill]

Yeah.... this is the problem my league is struggling with. I hate rules, but we need them when OOTP lets people beat the system.

It'd be great if the Position was also locked by the password. There really isn't much reason to change the Position box for any player. The added work is there, but it would prevent sneaky cheating, and I think it'd be worth it.

Right now the rule in my OOTP 5 league is: "If he has SP endurance, he must always be designated as an SP and paid as an SP, if he doesn't have SP endurance, he can be either MR or CL"

Then, people are free to play anyone wherever they want. The official role doesn't stop starters from relieving and vice versa.

But, OOTP 6 doesn't give us those endurances, so the rule will become useless and we'll have big debates when some star SP with 80 endurance relieves for 2 sims and then signs a far cheaper contract than he deserves...bleh

[obaslg]

It seems to me that an E SP endurance translates to the mid-50s in v.6 - you could use that mark.

[mrbill]

Yeah, just make an arbitrary number the cutoff point and charge everyone above it as an SP.

Hate doing arbitrary decisions too, but you're probably right, its all you can do.

Markus, help us !

[TNCubsFan]

Do like they do with professional contracts re: starts and bonuses. If a player makes "x" starts he becomes a starter and everyone else is either MR or CL. You could say 10 starts in any one season would make him a starter and it gets you away from a messy IP rule that a long guy with a bad staff could blow by.
Look as it as past "X" start his bonus are kicking in. Just my two cents worth.