Online League Pet Peeve

scotto313 · 04-30-2004, 11:10 PM

This seems to happen way too often for my taste. A player gets traded to another team only to have that team turn around and put him on the trade block within days of acquring him. Many of the GMs in my leagues play this game like it is the stock market. Buy low/sell high. I know that the opportunity is there for cutting out the middle man and no one if forcing the third team into paying more for the player but, I just don't get it. I don't trade for players I don't want on my team for at least one season. Does this ever happen in the MLB. Do the A's trade for a guy using their superior negotiation skills, then turn around and send him to the Angels for better prospect than they sent to get him?

rem · 04-30-2004, 11:17 PM

In Moneyball, Beane tries to get the Expos to pick up Kevin Youklis in the Cliff Floyd deal. He'd then have the Expos send Youklis to him something. Esptein wasn't GM yet but he kept it from happening.

The Marlins traded for Mike Piazza and then sent him to the Mets.

But yes, I agree with you.

jazzrack · 04-30-2004, 11:28 PM

this is nothing more than a slow 3-way deal, d

trade for a player so you can turn around and trade him to get the actual player you want, IMO it is a perfectly legitimate trading strategy.

Tekneek · 05-01-2004, 08:53 AM

Yep. No problems with this one. I would not, generally, engage in such behavior, but I don't see anything wrong with this.

RonCo · 05-01-2004, 10:53 AM

I think Scotto's point wasn't based on whether guys are traded like that in real life or not--it's obvious that it happens on occasion. I think it happens often inspring Training as teams are shuffling the last few guys on their roster. (Note: 3-way deals don't count in this scenario, as those are all part of one mega-decision). I think Scotto's point was based on the order of magnitude difference in frequency in this happening in on-line leagues and real baseball.

There can be no question that sim-owners don't have the same commitment to a trade that real GMs do. Hence you do get a disproportionally lot of Buy Low sell High type of situations in sim leagues (my opinion). Of course, part of the difference is that sim-GMs don't have to deal with the human down-side to a guy being traded three times in 15 days.

Perhaps this is also a creation of the Roto-style managers created by the other type of league...Rotisserie management, with its limited contracts and relative ease of getting rid of mistakes makes it a short-term stock-market type game. So sim-GMs who play in that environment, too may carry a different psychology into the game than more hard-core simulation GMs. Just a thought. Don't know how true it is.

scotto313 · 05-01-2004, 11:49 AM

^^^^^^ Yes!!!

Tekneek · 05-01-2004, 12:12 PM

Those are some good points. I can see that. It would be nice if everyone had the same mindset, and were imagining that you really were dealing with the real players and not just moving a set of numbers around in a database. I don't know how you make rules to force people to think about it that way, though.

sporr · 05-01-2004, 01:31 PM

Many owners treat the players as just numbers on a screen rather than real people. IRL, there would be consequences for trading players all of the time as the fans can't grow attached to anyone on the team.

BigBambino · 05-01-2004, 01:42 PM

Thats exactly how it happends. People just see the Talent ratings and not the player itself. I have to agree though, it is annoying then someone does that. I was in a league once that a guy traded for Kerry Wood, then 2 sim's later traded him to the Dodgers, the Dodgers then traded him to the Yankees and the yankees then turned around and traded him to the Marlins. All within 4 in game season months. I just laughed, and needless to say, the league has since folded

Raderick · 05-01-2004, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sporr
Many owners treat the players as just numbers on a screen rather than real people. IRL, there would be consequences for trading players all of the time as the fans can't grow attached to anyone on the team.

Can't agree more.

Raderick · 05-01-2004, 01:45 PM

Also, you have to weigh in the possibility that a team may find a deal that is worth their while. If a GM finds a trade that will either fit the teams needs and/or make the team better, it wouldn't matter if the player is new or been with the team 10 years. Unless league rules restrict certain players from being traded.

BigBambino · 05-01-2004, 02:28 PM

Good points there Raderick

Tekneek · 05-01-2004, 03:18 PM

I doubt that most of these kinds of deals are the type that really improve clubs. Some people just trade off anything for a minimal, if any, improvement. The amount of trades that go on is one of the most unrealistic aspects of a lot of online leagues.

I felt troubled when I traded away some of the "stars" on my team this past season. Not because I was not making deals that improved my team, but because they began to feel just a tad too unrealistic and I know that the fans would have been calling for my head. Once that feeling set in, I stopped making any of those kinds of deals and committed to keeping the guys who had contracts beyond the current season. These ethical issues about realism don't seem to factor into the minds of some GMs in these leagues (and it should).

teknokool · 05-01-2004, 04:45 PM

I have been in leagues that are the same...some guys try to throw major deals out there a few times a week...I agree that some GM's just look at ratings and not at how a player has done stats wise.

Jeff

scotto313 · 05-01-2004, 06:02 PM

I must be in the minority but, I actually become attached to my players. Alot of GMs get mad at me when I don't acccept a trade offer. I often explain my attachment to the players I draft but, they either don't understand or don't care.

Rowleyball · 05-01-2004, 06:25 PM

I think this really depends on the league you're in. I've been in a league since the beginning and we're now ending the 7th season, and it has never been heavy on trades. In one season you might see 2-3 big name players being traded and 5-6 other more marginal trades, but not more than that.

I know there are leagues out there that have trades going on all the time, but I've never personally been in a league like that. Maybe that's because I've only been in fictional leagues.

KidRock · 05-01-2004, 07:30 PM

It depends on your perseption and the reason you join a league. When I started my league we did a total redraft which I thought would limit the amout of trades since most owners got the players they wanted for the most part. We are at the trade deadline and their has been 5 trades so far, I probibly see 5-6 deals now at the deadline.

I also think it has to do with the AGES of your owners, I tend to have older guys in my league. One guy just quit my league because he said their was a lack of partisapation, in his view everyone wasnt making deals nightly so none was active even though I get 25 exports every sim. This same dude I seen in another league I just quit make trades every day....this league had like 200 trades the first season and is proibly on pace for 150 this sim. I found this nutty so I left.

Making a couple deals in a season to improve your team is one thing but making 20-25 trades just to make deals is another. I found most that deal like crazy have no PLAN or DIRECTION for their team.

One huge thing that helps tone down the trading frenzy is not allowing to trade draft picks.

potatoman · 05-02-2004, 03:25 PM

To solve this problem, have each team be designated a fan favorite. Or possibly all 4.5 star players + are designated fan favorites or the teams top prospect.

I have once thought of this system for this.

Every player with an overall/prospect rating of 4+ stars will be "Well-Liked". For every 3 "well liked" players, one of them will be "fan favorites". So 1/3 of your "well liked" players are "fan favorites" you randomly select which one's those are. If a fan favorite is traded, the Fan interest will go down 15 points . If a well liked player is traded, then fan interest will only go down 10 points notch. If you receive another teams fan favorite, your team interest will go up 10 and become a "well-liked". If it was a fan favorite or well liked player coming from a division rival, then the fan interest wouldn't go up at all. If you trade a fan favorite to a division rival, the fan interest will go down 25 points.

The league will also designated 10 special players, where if they were traded, the receiving team will get a boost in fan interest of 30 points and it won't matter if it's trade to a division rival. The team that trades away one of these players will lose 30 points

At the end of the season, the players received in trade have a 50% chance of becoming fan favorites again and then fan interest will be bumped up 5 more points

I'll use an example.

Let's say the Yankees have interest of 100 points and fan favorite is Alex Rodriguez and is a special player. If he was to be traded the Red Sox for Nomar Garciapara. The fan interest will go down to 45 (because it is a division rival/special player) and then back up again 10 points because Nomar is a boston fan favorite so Yankees fan interest will drop to 55. (Fans are dissapointed) From the Red Sox point of view, they had a fan interest of 75 before the trade and now they have 90 because of getting a special designated player which is 30 points but 21 points go down because some friends loved Nomar so a gain of only 15 points (fans will forget about Nomar because they got such a good player in return.)

Well, this is just a suggestion. Others can think it through more and figure out a better, easier, less complicated system. I think this would make leagues more realistic

satchel · 05-02-2004, 03:50 PM

It’s common for major league organizations to obtain players and then quickly ship them to another team, it happens several times each season.

The owners in my leagues value their players, as more than numbers.

Tekneek · 05-02-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by satchel
It’s common for major league organizations to obtain players and then quickly ship them to another team, it happens several times each season.

It is common? What makes you say this?

04-30-2004, 11:10 PM	#1
scotto313 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,220	Online League Pet Peeve This seems to happen way too often for my taste. A player gets traded to another team only to have that team turn around and put him on the trade block within days of acquring him. Many of the GMs in my leagues play this game like it is the stock market. Buy low/sell high. I know that the opportunity is there for cutting out the middle man and no one if forcing the third team into paying more for the player but, I just don't get it. I don't trade for players I don't want on my team for at least one season. Does this ever happen in the MLB. Do the A's trade for a guy using their superior negotiation skills, then turn around and send him to the Angels for better prospect than they sent to get him?

04-30-2004, 11:17 PM	#2
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	In Moneyball, Beane tries to get the Expos to pick up Kevin Youklis in the Cliff Floyd deal. He'd then have the Expos send Youklis to him something. Esptein wasn't GM yet but he kept it from happening. The Marlins traded for Mike Piazza and then sent him to the Mets. But yes, I agree with you. __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

04-30-2004, 11:28 PM	#3
jazzrack Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: still kicking Posts: 3,229	this is nothing more than a slow 3-way deal, d trade for a player so you can turn around and trade him to get the actual player you want, IMO it is a perfectly legitimate trading strategy. __________________ . "Never confuse composure for ease" Was once Head Cheese of Corporate League Baseball

05-01-2004, 01:45 PM	#11
Raderick Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,737	Also, you have to weigh in the possibility that a team may find a deal that is worth their while. If a GM finds a trade that will either fit the teams needs and/or make the team better, it wouldn't matter if the player is new or been with the team 10 years. Unless league rules restrict certain players from being traded. __________________

05-01-2004, 04:45 PM	#14
teknokool Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kansas City Posts: 56	I have been in leagues that are the same...some guys try to throw major deals out there a few times a week...I agree that some GM's just look at ratings and not at how a player has done stats wise. Jeff __________________ Jeff jeff@teknokool.net Go Royals!!! teknokool.net website baseballgeek.net baseball news and views LLM Tabasco Olmecas [size=1 WANTED: I am looking for a Fantasy Baseball League to join up in the Kansas City Area. looking for serious baseball fans who have an offline draft. Please feel free to email me with any info.

05-01-2004, 08:53 AM	#4
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	Yep. No problems with this one. I would not, generally, engage in such behavior, but I don't see anything wrong with this.

05-01-2004, 10:53 AM	#5
RonCo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 10,386	I think Scotto's point wasn't based on whether guys are traded like that in real life or not--it's obvious that it happens on occasion. I think it happens often inspring Training as teams are shuffling the last few guys on their roster. (Note: 3-way deals don't count in this scenario, as those are all part of one mega-decision). I think Scotto's point was based on the order of magnitude difference in frequency in this happening in on-line leagues and real baseball. There can be no question that sim-owners don't have the same commitment to a trade that real GMs do. Hence you do get a disproportionally lot of Buy Low sell High type of situations in sim leagues (my opinion). Of course, part of the difference is that sim-GMs don't have to deal with the human down-side to a guy being traded three times in 15 days. Perhaps this is also a creation of the Roto-style managers created by the other type of league...Rotisserie management, with its limited contracts and relative ease of getting rid of mistakes makes it a short-term stock-market type game. So sim-GMs who play in that environment, too may carry a different psychology into the game than more hard-core simulation GMs. Just a thought. Don't know how true it is.

05-01-2004, 11:49 AM	#6
scotto313 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,220	^^^^^^ Yes!!!

05-01-2004, 12:12 PM	#7
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	Those are some good points. I can see that. It would be nice if everyone had the same mindset, and were imagining that you really were dealing with the real players and not just moving a set of numbers around in a database. I don't know how you make rules to force people to think about it that way, though.

05-01-2004, 01:31 PM	#8
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	Many owners treat the players as just numbers on a screen rather than real people. IRL, there would be consequences for trading players all of the time as the fans can't grow attached to anyone on the team.

05-01-2004, 01:42 PM	#9
BigBambino All Star Starter Join Date: May 2003 Location: Auburn, ME Posts: 1,315	Thats exactly how it happends. People just see the Talent ratings and not the player itself. I have to agree though, it is annoying then someone does that. I was in a league once that a guy traded for Kerry Wood, then 2 sim's later traded him to the Dodgers, the Dodgers then traded him to the Yankees and the yankees then turned around and traded him to the Marlins. All within 4 in game season months. I just laughed, and needless to say, the league has since folded

05-01-2004, 02:28 PM	#12
BigBambino All Star Starter Join Date: May 2003 Location: Auburn, ME Posts: 1,315	Good points there Raderick

05-01-2004, 03:18 PM	#13
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	I doubt that most of these kinds of deals are the type that really improve clubs. Some people just trade off anything for a minimal, if any, improvement. The amount of trades that go on is one of the most unrealistic aspects of a lot of online leagues. I felt troubled when I traded away some of the "stars" on my team this past season. Not because I was not making deals that improved my team, but because they began to feel just a tad too unrealistic and I know that the fans would have been calling for my head. Once that feeling set in, I stopped making any of those kinds of deals and committed to keeping the guys who had contracts beyond the current season. These ethical issues about realism don't seem to factor into the minds of some GMs in these leagues (and it should).

05-01-2004, 06:02 PM	#15
scotto313 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,220	I must be in the minority but, I actually become attached to my players. Alot of GMs get mad at me when I don't acccept a trade offer. I often explain my attachment to the players I draft but, they either don't understand or don't care.

05-01-2004, 06:25 PM	#16
Rowleyball Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 265	I think this really depends on the league you're in. I've been in a league since the beginning and we're now ending the 7th season, and it has never been heavy on trades. In one season you might see 2-3 big name players being traded and 5-6 other more marginal trades, but not more than that. I know there are leagues out there that have trades going on all the time, but I've never personally been in a league like that. Maybe that's because I've only been in fictional leagues.

05-01-2004, 07:30 PM	#17
KidRock Banned Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 113	It depends on your perseption and the reason you join a league. When I started my league we did a total redraft which I thought would limit the amout of trades since most owners got the players they wanted for the most part. We are at the trade deadline and their has been 5 trades so far, I probibly see 5-6 deals now at the deadline. I also think it has to do with the AGES of your owners, I tend to have older guys in my league. One guy just quit my league because he said their was a lack of partisapation, in his view everyone wasnt making deals nightly so none was active even though I get 25 exports every sim. This same dude I seen in another league I just quit make trades every day....this league had like 200 trades the first season and is proibly on pace for 150 this sim. I found this nutty so I left. Making a couple deals in a season to improve your team is one thing but making 20-25 trades just to make deals is another. I found most that deal like crazy have no PLAN or DIRECTION for their team. One huge thing that helps tone down the trading frenzy is not allowing to trade draft picks.

05-02-2004, 03:25 PM	#18
potatoman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,410 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	To solve this problem, have each team be designated a fan favorite. Or possibly all 4.5 star players + are designated fan favorites or the teams top prospect. I have once thought of this system for this. Every player with an overall/prospect rating of 4+ stars will be "Well-Liked". For every 3 "well liked" players, one of them will be "fan favorites". So 1/3 of your "well liked" players are "fan favorites" you randomly select which one's those are. If a fan favorite is traded, the Fan interest will go down 15 points . If a well liked player is traded, then fan interest will only go down 10 points notch. If you receive another teams fan favorite, your team interest will go up 10 and become a "well-liked". If it was a fan favorite or well liked player coming from a division rival, then the fan interest wouldn't go up at all. If you trade a fan favorite to a division rival, the fan interest will go down 25 points. The league will also designated 10 special players, where if they were traded, the receiving team will get a boost in fan interest of 30 points and it won't matter if it's trade to a division rival. The team that trades away one of these players will lose 30 points At the end of the season, the players received in trade have a 50% chance of becoming fan favorites again and then fan interest will be bumped up 5 more points I'll use an example. Let's say the Yankees have interest of 100 points and fan favorite is Alex Rodriguez and is a special player. If he was to be traded the Red Sox for Nomar Garciapara. The fan interest will go down to 45 (because it is a division rival/special player) and then back up again 10 points because Nomar is a boston fan favorite so Yankees fan interest will drop to 55. (Fans are dissapointed) From the Red Sox point of view, they had a fan interest of 75 before the trade and now they have 90 because of getting a special designated player which is 30 points but 21 points go down because some friends loved Nomar so a gain of only 15 points (fans will forget about Nomar because they got such a good player in return.) Well, this is just a suggestion. Others can think it through more and figure out a better, easier, less complicated system. I think this would make leagues more realistic __________________ GFBL - Storm - 5 seasons - 500 - 310 New Jersey Nighthawks (1227-717) Last 5 seasons 2011: 118-44 2012: 100-62 2013: 111-51 2014: 106-56 2015: 108-54 OTBA Champions: 2008, 2010,2011

05-02-2004, 03:50 PM	#19
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith Ark. USA Posts: 2,681	It’s common for major league organizations to obtain players and then quickly ship them to another team, it happens several times each season. The owners in my leagues value their players, as more than numbers. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59