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Old 04-27-2004, 02:02 AM   #1
Tiger Fan
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Tiger Fan's Historical Tutorial and Feedback League

Prior to the release of OOTP 6 Henry posted a great idea about doing a detailed observation of both a fictional and a historical league. The idea would be that it would work both as a tutorial for newer users and as a workshop for all of us to trade ideas and discuss what we would like to see enhanced in the OOTP series in order to make the game more enjoyable.

I volunteered to set up and lead the discussion on a historical league. Now the nice thing with historical league play is there are so many different ways you can do things. Replay vs Career. Financials on or off. Draft rookies or assign to original teams. Edit players or use them just as they import from the database. Which database to use - Lahman or Ankit's modified. The options go on and on. The bottom line is there is no right way and there is no wrong way. Do what you want and experiment with all the different options.

I have decided to structure the league I will start in the following manner.

Database - Ankit's modified DB
Start Year - 1901
Mode - Career
Financials - Off until approx. 1970
Coaches and Scouts - Off
Draft or Assign - Draft (want to test the ai draft logic.)


Because of the unique player development curves that occur over a career sim I do not expect to generate perfectly accurate stats for every player. Not only is that an unrealistic expectation but it also takes all the fun out of the game as you would have very few surprises. However, what I always demand from my History of Baseball career replays is realistic league totals. If my league totals are in line than chances are my leaderboards will be realistic.

I also want most of my players to perform somewhat close to how they did in real life. Babe Ruth does not have to hit 714 homers but if he stays healthy he better be among the best home run hitters of his era. If Ruth is not the alltime homerun king when he retires than it better be a player like Hack Wilson or Jimmie Foxx...someone I can find believable in that position. Even a player like Joe Hauser would be moderately acceptable because I can accept in this alternate reality that his knees did not give out and he lived up to the promise he showed as a young Philadelphia Athletic. However, if Mark Koenig and Joe Dugan are the cornerstones of Murderers Row in my replay believability is gone.

That is what I look for in a historical sim and I think many of us feel the same. Please post any thoughts you have on this. I am sure when Henry first discussed this with me the idea was to give Markus some constructive criticism on how we can make historical play better. Be critical of things that don't work right as we go along. But make sure your criticism is constructive. Don't say this does not work right and leave it at that. Instead say here is why this does not work right and here is what I would like to see happen.



LEAGUE CREATION
Here are my settings

EDIT - If you are using Ankit's career DB rather than the default Lahman please look a couple of reply's down for his recommended settings. I have re-set up my league using his settings rather than what I listed below.

League Name - HOB (or History of Baseball. Kind of my signature name for a historical replay now)
Start Manager career - No (I will not run a team. I am the commish in this replay)
Import Year - 1901
path to database - directed to my ankit modified DB
Games per team - 140 (will change this when 1904 hits and they move to 154 game schedule)

ADVANCED IMPORT OPTIONS
adjust hitters with less than 300 AB staying with defaults on both the adjust and make bad numbers since I am using Ankit's DB and he removes the guys with just a few games experience.


Talent ratings based on - Remaining career (I always choose this since it makes more season to base ratings on just what a player has yet to accomplish in his career, not on what he already did in the past)

Make generic L/R splits - NO a big no here. I found it artificially makes lefthanded hitters too good in the game since there are many more righthanded pitchers. Players are already rated on what they accomplished against both righty's and lefty's in their career. To make generic splits is almost like giving the lefthanders double credit against righty pitchers and penalizing right handed hitters the same amount.

Now, ideally the game could read stats vs both lefty and righty seperately from a database so we would automatically have the proper splits but I doubt there is a database available that has that information particularily prior to 1950 or so.


I am creating the league tonight. It will be a few days likely before I start to go into detail on the things I always do before embarking on a historical replay.

Hopefully, many of us can contribute ideas that work for them, league setting tips and any challenges we have to face (like expansion) as our leagues progress.

Welcome aboard. I hope this thread is informative and helps enhance OOTP7 (or maybe some OOTP6 patches as we go along).

Last edited by Tiger Fan; 04-27-2004 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:14 AM   #2
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The return of the HOB!!!!!!!!!!!!....man this brings back memories...

I'll definately be reading along...and as ideas/suggestions come to me...I'll chime in...
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:28 AM   #3
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this wil be fun to follow...


question on Ankit database, you might want to ask him what he recommends for setting...when u set up the league with his database..when i pm a few weeks back he said to do this:


"Ok, I have tested this out OOTP 6 and there are changes. These are new settings and I will update the readme that comes with the zip shortly. The new settings:

Adust Hitters - 100
Adjust Pitchers - 20
Make Bad Hitters - 25
Make Pitchers - 5
Talent Ratings Based On - Whole Career
L/R splits - Yes

Thanks for bringing this to my attention..."

also you need to get ankit career database, he said you use that when you import rookies for the following season ...

You might want to Pm and confirm and see if he change anything on those setting i told u above..thanks

keep up the good work thanks
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:45 AM   #4
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My official recommended settings:

Adust Hitters - 100
Adjust Pitchers - 20
Make Bad Hitters - 25
Make Pitchers - 5
Talent Ratings Based On - Whole Career
L/R splits - No

Use AnkitDB 5 to create the historical league, then use CarAvgDB 5 to import rookies...
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:54 PM   #5
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FWIW Tiger Fan, you are speaking precisely to my beliefs and wishes for this game, and I could not have stated the beginning premise any clearer. Long may you run, and Lordy do I hope Markus gives this his deepest attention.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:16 PM   #6
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Thanks for the quick response Ankit. I have reimported the league using your recommended settings.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:33 PM   #7
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What Stadiums do we use?

Okay the league is almost ready to go. Before we start there are some decisions to make. The first one:

What do we want to do with stadiums? I have run leagues using the default Old League Park for all teams, other leagues used the proper stadiums assigned to each club but where I have enjoyed the most realistic results is using just 2 stadium models. 1 for all the National League teams and one for all the American League teams.

This 2 stadium format allows me to tinker with my park effects each season so that I can ensure the individual league totals are close to what we want to see.

What you do you think? What would you prefer to see?



Personally, I like the idea of having real stadiums but I find it to be very time consuming having to create a new park file every few years as teams move into different stadiums.

FIRST HISTORICAL ENHANCEMENT IDEA FOR MARKUS
It would be nice as you proceed to a new season the game would ask not only do you wish to import real rookies but do you also wish to import stadium or team city/nickname changes. Not sure how feasible it is with the Lahman database but it would save a lot of work for those who like to have the varied real life stadiums.

The second idea is something I would really like to see. Seperate league totals settings for league 1 and league 2. Over the course of baseball history their have been some seasons where there is a major difference in home run numbers or other stats between the American and National Leagues.



The second aspect (aside from time factor in dealing with all the stadium changes) that always concerns me when you use individual stadiums is do they do more harm than good? Particularily if you assign rookies to their original teams. When we import a player like Willie Mays his stats are already penalized because he played so many games in Candlestick Park. (You always hear talk of how many more homers he would have hit had he played somewhere else). So my concern is if Willie Mays is playing for the Giants in my historical league his ratings are already factoring in the effect Candlestick had on his career. If you then add park effects are you not, in effect, penalizing him twice? The situation is even a bigger issue (both pro and con) with a park effect like you will see for Coors or some of the huge stadiums like in Cleveland during the 40's and fifties.

What are your thoughts? How do you handle park effects and do you think it may be actually have double the effect on a player like Mays in the example listed above?

Last edited by Tiger Fan; 04-27-2004 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:33 PM   #8
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i was reading a thread and they recommend all parks factors to be 100 for historical league


check this out...

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=57200


hope that helps
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:45 PM   #9
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On park effects....

I've changed over the years....when I first started to play historical sims, I wanted the parks to bring their quirks and personalities to the league. However, after simming many times, this can really skew the numbers depending on how drastic the park effects differ and who ends up playing in particular parks.

For the most control...the NL Stadium & AL Stadium format you use I feel gives you the most control.

For most neutral effect obviously just using the Old League Stadium park with all effects being 100....(my mind always struggles accepting this one though)..

For the best compromise....
This is the one I prefer to do...but it does get time consuming at times....Using the real stadiums....but keeping the park effects in a range of having no effect lower than 92 or higher than 108. I've used other park config.dats where the range was extreme and all over the place and this has contributed to some odd stats over the years...Joe Jackson hitting .438 over a 3 year stretch....including a .447 year...using some kind of reference as a guide, usually a combination of the baseballreference site and a baseball encyclopedia and doing minor adjustments when there appeared to be a trend at a particular park.

I think for what you are doing here...option one (AL and NL Stadiums) is the most suitable for what you are trying to accomplish...and as a gamer...its the one you enjoy the most...
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:12 PM   #10
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Not sure if you already do this or not but you'll want to doublecheck each teams line-up, probably year to year. Some players will be playing out of position, Honus keeps getting slotted to play 1B whenever I have started in 1901, I had to remove these players secondary positions to get them in the proper positions.
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Old 04-27-2004, 07:09 PM   #11
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My first thought would be to use the real stadiums because it sort of adds "flavor" to the game, but I do see the point of how it could skew results.

I think it would also be interesting to compare Tigerfan's league with others that could sim histories as well using the same type of settings.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:18 AM   #12
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one thing i'd love to see added to historical sims is the ability to draft in june, and have the real players option. That way in later leagues, (1980+), you wouldn't be resigning players where you know you have a good rookie. Looking forward to your results Tiger fan.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:29 AM   #13
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I would just use two parks as you have suggested. It will be an awful lot of work to continually change stadiums every couple of years. Good luck and I look forward to a great dynasty.
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Old 04-29-2004, 12:58 AM   #14
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TigerFan, will you be using real schedules that have been posted on RetroSheet.org?
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Old 04-29-2004, 01:02 AM   #15
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Likely not because of the doubleheader problems. However, I will be using my own custom made schedules for most of the seasons. I have custom made schedules based on real season schedules only with the doubleheaders removed for the 16-team, 154 game format (194-60), 20 team 162 game format (1962-68), 24 team 162 game format (1969-76) and 26 team 162 game format (1977-92 or so).
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Old 04-29-2004, 02:24 AM   #16
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tigerfan

here a good web site
http://priorydesign.netmag.easyspace.com/historical.htm

it has all the Revised dat set with all ballpark factors equalised to 100.
it is listed under NEW!! UPDATED 19/03/04

this will be great for your historical league....
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Old 04-29-2004, 02:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger Fan
Likely not because of the doubleheader problems ... I have custom made schedules based on real season schedules only with the doubleheaders removed for the 16-team, 154 game format (194-60) ...
Actually, there seem to be relatively few issues with doubleheaders now, at least according to some fairly in-depth testing that a few folks have done. The biggest issue has to do with a pitcher starting both games due to player fatigue being updated at the end of the day rather than at the end of each game.

However, yes, if you want 100% certainty then it's best to skip the twin bill.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger Fan
I have custom made schedules based on real season schedules only with the doubleheaders removed for the 16-team, 154 game format (194-60) ...
But your retooled schedule versions are probably more sane and orderly than were the real MLB schedules. The last 2-3 weeks of the actual MLB schedules from the 16 team era (and a couple from the 20 team era as well) are downright bizarre...

Heheh, whenever the day comes that folks can easily import the real schedules files from Retrosheet into OOTP, I wonder what folks will make of them. Considering that people now sometimes complain about OOTP's schedule generator piling a bunch of one-game series at the end of the season and clumping off days close together, they'll probably be amazed to learn that MLB's real schedules were actually more strange than those created by OOTP...
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:31 PM   #18
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the HOB returns. Loved the previous versions, very interested in this one, because if i remember correctly, the previous ones you had players assigned to real teams and not drafted, correct?

Love the layout and expectations, that was one of my biggest disappointments with my historical replay. Many of the greats never panned out at all, while many lesser known players littered the career leader boards. I know a replay will not duplicate exact results, but a bit too many "busts" for my taste, so here's hoping that all the greats, barring injury, have solid careers.
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:02 AM   #19
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I have run a few of different versions of the HOB dating back to the real old boards. The first if I recall correctly had financials turned off and all rookies assigned to their original teams.


For anyone interested here is a trip down memory lane and some posts on the legendary Cliff Markle and the original HOB.

http://www.forumplanet.com/sportplan...m.asp?fid=3663
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:23 AM   #20
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I am putting the final touches on the graphic aspect by unzipping a 1901 facepack (I'll give you one guess on who's I am using :-) and for my logos I always use uniform logos, either Dreamteams or the ones created by JDEW.

The next step is to make a copy of the entire contents of your HOB.lg folder (except for logos and photos). I use the backup copy to do my initial testing. The testing is designed to get good league settings that generate realistic 1901 stats. On some occassions I have ran 8 to 10 1901 seasons until I got the numbers exactly where I wanted them.

What do I look for? Two things. The leaderboard has to look good. I want my home run leader somewhere in the 10 to 20 range for each league. It is okay if one or two players challenge or even surpass the .400 mark but I do not want 7 or 8 hitting that high. I am not as concerned who the names on the leaderboard are but more concerned the numbers look good.

Just as important is the overall league totals. I go to Baseball Reference and compare the real life league totals stats to the stats generated in my sim. If something is way out of whack I tinker with the league settings, recopy my original league and input the new settings and try again. Once it is close I am ready to go.

I will post my initial test sim results shortly.

Last edited by Tiger Fan; 04-30-2004 at 12:32 AM.
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