Conversion-what was fixed?

[Another Mike D]

In the patch thread, it was stated that there were changes made to conversions from v5-->v6. After converting with and without the patch, I'm wondering what exactly they are?

I had similar issues as Clarnzz with the stuff rating being about 25% higher than a naturally occuring v6 league and had to edit everything with CSVs and then tweak the league totals. My ratings with the patch were almost exactly the same to the decimal as compared to before.

Any comments on what exactly was fixed other than the broad, "Improved OOTP 5 league imports" statement?

[Cyclone792]

PLEASE somebody in the know give us some detailed specifics on this...

[obaslg]

Ditto.

[obaslg]

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=61616 has a short answer from Sporr - basically, that Markus tried to improve it some.

[Henry]

Please note this post....

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=60093

This post was stickied on release day. It's as if some who read it didn't understand it.

It was well known, and rather obvious that a ratings/game engine change would make siginificant difference to the way players were handled regardless of how much effort was put into equalizing them. Markus and the beta team have done as much as possible to make the conversion as painless as possible - but a "no difference" conversion simply is not possible.

Further "tweaks" will be made where they make sense, but a one-to-one conversion is not going to be possible.

Henry

[Another Mike D]

Understandable. I read it fully, and understood it, contrary to your overly condescending tone. The problem is the distribution is skewed. I can take the fact that some pitchers who were good would not be such anymore and vice versa, but when I convert, I have 17 SPs with 100 in stuff, 15 from 90-100 and 42 80-90. That's just the ratings. I had to scroll down 6 pages of talents to stop seeing 10s...that's about 150 SPs who have the potential to be strikeout kings.

Other people have made some good workarounds for this...by editing CSVs and re-importing, then tweaking the league totals, and I have done this. I just wish there had been a better distribution upon converting...the AVG talents of my top 500 pitchers was almost 86...compared to 63 in a naturally occurinig 20yr v6 league.

I usually appreciate your comments and find them most of the time appropriate given the attitude of some posters. I was not insulting anyone by asking what exactly the change was considering to my eyes, it appeared exactly the same. I believe your insult/tone is rather unwarranted.

[KurtBevacqua]

I'm not too sure what the beef was about on conversions in the first place. I noticed on the 10 point scale the big difference is most of the ratings bumped up a point, but that matters little when you add the perspective that everyone's ratings were bumped, so as far as I have seen everyone's performace stays in line with where it should be. I just accepted the fact ratings were inflated by a point and went on.

[obaslg]

Kurt: That's because you're not seeing that alot of these "10s" are really way over 100 (or way over 10, on the 1-10 scale).

Henry: That was a pretty condescending tone, considering the fact that the people with conversion problems ran multiple tests and carefully documented how the conversion had dramatically impacted the overall league performance, including things like producing 16 no-hitters. Sounds to me like some other people either didn't read that thread or didn't understand it.

[Dan Theman]

I just wanted to include one conversion problem that was fixed/improved: the pitcher "stuff" platoon. The numbers had wound up being reversed, but they are no longer (that was a fix in the patch).

Interestingly enough, while commenting that the trend also applied to the "avoiding k's" platoon for hitters in my league, I came to realize that this was something that happened before because that's how the stats simply were listed in OOTP5; left-handed hitters were better at avoiding k's against lefties, and right-handed hitters were better at avoiding k's against righties. This was a conversion problem from v.4 to v.5, and so there's little to be done about fixing it now. At least now we know the same problem won't be repeated.

[Henry]

Originally posted by Another Mike D
Understandable. I read it fully, and understood it, contrary to your overly condescending tone. The problem is the distribution is skewed. I can take the fact that some pitchers who were good would not be such anymore and vice versa, but when I convert, I have 17 SPs with 100 in stuff, 15 from 90-100 and 42 80-90. That's just the ratings. I had to scroll down 6 pages of talents to stop seeing 10s...that's about 150 SPs who have the potential to be strikeout kings.

Other people have made some good workarounds for this...by editing CSVs and re-importing, then tweaking the league totals, and I have done this. I just wish there had been a better distribution upon converting...the AVG talents of my top 500 pitchers was almost 86...compared to 63 in a naturally occurinig 20yr v6 league.

I usually appreciate your comments and find them most of the time appropriate given the attitude of some posters. I was not insulting anyone by asking what exactly the change was considering to my eyes, it appeared exactly the same. I believe your insult/tone is rather unwarranted.

As always, if I've been taken incorrectly I'll apologize and try to restate myself. I'm sorry if I sounded a bit overboard. This past month has been a killer

The problem (from my perspective anyway) is that we have all types of complaints out there... those that are constructive and tactful, and those that border on insulting. Over time, and the pace at which I'm trying to provide valid answers, it becomes difficult to always be able to see the dividing line. In this case, there has been so much commented on the conversion process, I saw the title "Conversion - what was fixed" as an aggressive challenge to our efforts.

One of the biggest issues is that the game has only been out for 6 days - and one patch has already been released. Obviously, we haven't yet caught everything, and we're also trying to keep everyone on the board involved... that doesn't leave a lot of time to run tests and analyze / confirm what others are reporting.

These issues will be addressed in time, and to most folks satisfaction, but we're still only 6 days from release and a lot of follow-up work has to be done yet.

I know this one is tough because online leagues (especially) are waiting for as many issue as possible to be resolved before they convert, but that was expected given the major impact the changes have on the player database.

Again, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh - I'm reacting more to the overall environment that to you specifically.

Henry

[obaslg]

I know this one is tough because online leagues (especially) are waiting for as many issue as possible to be resolved before they convert, but that was expected given the major impact the changes have on the player database.

I appreciate the acknowledgement of the difficulties particular to online leagues. You're right that we could of course expect a lot of issues because of the size of the change. It's probably my bad luck that the new version happened to come out right in my league's break between seasons, so there's a desire to switch immediately.

I realize that there's a huge volume of questions and comments here. However, it would really help if there was a note on some of the bigger threads indicating whether the issue is being investigated. Personally, my big concern is the display of ratings over 100 - I haven't seen an indication that Markus is thinking of fixing (IMO) the problem, or that he's been notified.

I had the same problem with my complaints about the v.5 depth charts. Once we were told that it wasn't going to be fixed, I shut up.

That aside, I'd ask that you try to keep in mind that even when criticism is stated bluntly (not to be confused with rudely), the fact that the criticism is here indicates a commitment to the game and desire to see it improved. Personally, I've posted a lot of direct criticism on the boards (as well as defense and explanation), but I've also bought 4 versions of the game now, commished an online league for 2.5 years, and encouraged at least 3 friends to buy the game. I think a lot of critics here are similar. I mostly get pissy when I think I'm being ignored or BSed.

Trying to get along...

[Another Mike D]

Yeah, re-reading my post, it may have sounded a bit harsh...but I was just mainly looking for clarification of the "Improved OOTP 5 Imports" statement in the patch thread. I forgot about the splits issue and that does appear to be fixed.

Our league is quite pitching heavy, which may have made the stuff ratings/talents a bit high, but I like the CSV workaround. I understand the problem in taking a set of 6/7 ratings and trying to adjust them into 3 ratings which may influence each other a bit. It's quite daunting and frankly, I don't really know how Markus could fix it.

Perhaps since we are all fans of buttons in the game setup, there could be something to "normalize" distributions of ratings/talents. That would be kind of cool. The game can have some sort of internal number for each rating that would be an AVG of top500 (sort of like what the others did) and the game could "re-distribute" the ratings or something. Don't know if that would be all that useful to most, but is a neat idea.

Thanks for replying to my post and I know it's been a killer over here. I tried to word my title in a manner which stated the area I was having problems with and the question I had so as to be specific.

[mpsquid]

One thing that was fixed is talent only leagues no longer display the player's ratings after conversion. Thanks for that fix!!

[thomamon]

I noticed another fix from 5 to 6. I imported my same league again and less pitchers the second time had a 10 rating or 100 or higher depending on what scale you look at it with.

Hope this helps.

I see the confusion as well, I understand both sides here. I too was curious to this answer, which is why I read this thread. But in looking at it from Henry's angle, I can see how you would get a little over protective if you believe people are questioning your hard work and dedication.

I have a suggestion for fixing this if you feel your players ratings are too high, I will go to another post and start fresh there with it.

[Dan Theman]

I've noticed many complaints about ratings over 100. Am I the only commish who had players in v.5 with HR and Strikeout ratings over 10? I merely view this as an extension of those same players.

[obaslg]

I've noticed many complaints about ratings over 100. Am I the only commish who had players in v.5 with HR and Strikeout ratings over 10? I merely view this as an extension of those same players.

It's more than that - check out the threads for the story.

[BasicGuy]

Dan Theman In OOTP 5 If you had a player with a rateing higher than 10 you could see that number. In OOTP 6 It shows us only upto 10(100 depending on scale) but a rateing can be well over that and we can't see It unless we use the editor. Which If your In a Online league you can't.

The big problem people have with this Is a dishonest Commish could take advantage of this by bumping his players up without anyone seeing a differance In the rateing or vice-versa by bumping your player who might have a 15(150) hidden HR rateing down to 10 and you would be none the wiser.

[octones]

Originally posted by obaslg
It's more than that - check out the threads for the story.

Which threads? There's so much activity around here lately that it is extremely hard to find some stuff.

I only ask because the three leagues that I have leadership roles in are looking to possibly convert soon and I am actively searching out any such information that will help our decision.

[Cyclone792]

Originally posted by octones
Which threads? There's so much activity around here lately that it is extremely hard to find some stuff.

I only ask because the three leagues that I have leadership roles in are looking to possibly convert soon and I am actively searching out any such information that will help our decision.

For starters, check out the following thread:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=60640

In a nutshell, what the study showed was that after importing v5 leagues into v6, the mean ratings for converted leagues is much higher than the mean ratings for naturally occurring v6 leagues.

To use an example, the stuff rating for pitchers: In one of my leagues that I converted over, the mean stuff rating for the top 500 pitchers in the league was approx. 81. However, if you create a new league in v6 and sim it for 20 seasons, you'll find the mean stuff rating for the top 500 pitchers in that league to be approx. 65. It essentially means that for v5 leagues converting to v6 all newcoming talent *created* in v6 (i.e. the amateur/first year player drafts) will be of severly lessened quality than the current crop of talent already in your league.

One suggestion raised early was to use the player creator modifiers and juice all newcoming players. For some people, that might be a useful way of evening out the talent, but it's already been pointed out that OOTP doesn't perform well with a mean talent level juiced to such proportions. Therefore, the more viable option is to try to bring down the mean talent levels of converted leagues back to a level that is proportionally even to that of a natural, created v6 league. In the above thread when discussing editing ratings via exporting/re-importing the .csv's that is exactly what we attempted to do. I've found that it's necessary to adjust the stuff rating down for every player leaguewide anywhere from 10-30% to bring them back within range of a naturally occurring v6 league. Other ratings also require adjustments down, but the most extreme has been the stuff rating.

[Another Mike D]

Yeah, I think our average stuff was almost 86. I knocked stuff down by about 27%, movement by about 10% and control by about 5% (those were pretty close). For batters, our contact needed to be knocked doen nearly 20%, power and eye about 15%. That gave us better ratings, then we had to tweak the league totals a bit to get back to MLB avgs.