Prospect talents convert, but ratings...

drprestwood · 04-21-2004, 08:12 PM

We're just finishing 2007 in the ATHL. In order to test for conversion to OOTP6, I ran the 2007 season 10 times after converting.

My team's top prospect, pitcher Carlos Carrion, is one of the best prospects in the league. He is still a top prospect when converting. The problem is that his performance and actual ratings in the converted leagues are much worse.

start of 2007 in our sim, with OOTP5:
2 avoiding H, 8 avoiding BB, 8 getting K
Performance:
AA: 174 IP, 37 BB, 294 K

start of 2007 averages in OOTP6 tests:
4 stuff, 1 control, 3 movement
Performance:
A: 175 IP, 60 BB, 120 K

It's not just that he had much worse K/BB numbers in OOTP6. It's that he had much worse numbers in CLASS A, as opposed to shredding AA ball despite a relatively high ERA. I don't know how this happens...how a guy who Ks over 1.5 batters per inning goes to only striking out less than one against easier competition.

Can anybody give me any insight on why this happened??? I took on a huge salary and gave up a nice young SP in a trade for this guy, and I want to get the value I traded for.

crackpott · 04-21-2004, 08:20 PM

My guess would be the prospect sucked in avoiding hits. To compensate, his other numbers would have to be adjusted or he'd be way too good.

I had a similar prospect who's talent is all 8's, but as for his ability, his K's went WAY down, his walks went way up... but his ERA remained fairly close because it was done to compensate for his crappy avoiding hits ability.

drprestwood · 04-22-2004, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crackpott
My guess would be the prospect sucked in avoiding hits. To compensate, his other numbers would have to be adjusted or he'd be way too good.

I had a similar prospect who's talent is all 8's, but as for his ability, his K's went WAY down, his walks went way up... but his ERA remained fairly close because it was done to compensate for his crappy avoiding hits ability.

That makes some sense, but his ratings in general made him signifcantly worse, as he performed similarly ERA wise in the OOTP6 versions, but at a lower level of the minors. If anything, it seems that his ERA should go down a little bit because the DIPS system values Ks so highly. Yargh.

drprestwood · 04-22-2004, 11:32 PM

An update...I simmed future seasons, and in OOTP6, this guy never develops. Doing a similar series of tests in OOTP5, this guy becomes a decent starter who is constantly near the top of the league in Ks.

Anybody?

dougk62 · 04-23-2004, 12:34 AM

Does this maybe answer your questions?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=60093

danwaechter · 04-23-2004, 12:36 AM

I'm fairly certain that the reason is because you're putting emphasis on K's in OOTP5. In version 5, K's has basically no affect in the actual performance of a pitcher; It's simply cosmetic. So, when coding conversions, Markus knew that if a high K pitcher in OOTP5 turned into a high K rating in OOTP6(where K's are important due to the DIPS system), then pitchers performances in version 5 compared to 6 would be way off. So, I'm guessing your pitcher had a low 'avoid hits' rating in version 5, which seems to be the most important rating that affects the Stuff and Movement ratings in OOTP6, as it should be.

sporr · 04-23-2004, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by drprestwood
An update...I simmed future seasons, and in OOTP6, this guy never develops. Doing a similar series of tests in OOTP5, this guy becomes a decent starter who is constantly near the top of the league in Ks.

Anybody?

Also keep in mind that development is not predetermined. A player that develops in one sim of OOTP may not develop in another sim. And this doesn't even take into account the different versions of the game.

drprestwood · 04-23-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sporr
Also keep in mind that development is not predetermined. A player that develops in one sim of OOTP may not develop in another sim. And this doesn't even take into account the different versions of the game.

I simmed each 10 times. It's definitely the different versions of the game.

drprestwood · 04-26-2004, 07:07 PM

After doing some more research, it's not DIPS that is my issue, it's definitely just the ratings conversion. Even using the old ratings engine in OOTP6, the problem continues. So here's a question for the gurus -

Using Stuff, Control and Movement, how could I best create a player with this AA line:

4.14 ERA, 174 IP, 186 H, 37 BB, 294 K

TheRockCT · 04-26-2004, 08:18 PM

What I've seen in multiple conversion tests is whacky control imports. Stuff ratings and Movement ratings seem to import well based on DIPS theory and how a player was rated in v.5.

However, I've had guys with 5's and 6's in Avoiding Walks (v.5) import into v.6 with 9/100, 13/100, etc. in the new Control rating. I've had 7's and 8's in Avoiding Walks in v.5 import into v.6 with 32/100, 39/100, etc. On the other hand I've seen some pitchers with 6's and 7's import into v.6 with 100/100 in Control, but with a Talent rating of like 59/100, which will cause that "undeserved" 100 to fall really really quickly.

I thought at first in may have to do with their old Getting K's rating and Pitching Velocity, but I've seen these drastic conversions from guys with 2's in K's & Velocity and guys with 10's in K's and Velocity. It's just a bit dramatic.

So, yes, I understand completely that the new engine's caused fluctuations, but what I'd like to know is, what other factors are being considered in the conversion from v.5's Avoiding Walks to v.6's Control? I would think they would be at least a little closer in resemblance. The Stuff/Movement ratings are the ratings I think would have given me the most problems, but from what I can tell, it's been Control more than anything.

RonCo · 04-26-2004, 09:00 PM

One thing I haven't seen noted in other conversion threads is the years of service. I've converted a league over and seen minor leaguers with time in service in odd increments. Any idea what's up with that?

04-21-2004, 08:12 PM	#1
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	Prospect talents convert, but ratings... We're just finishing 2007 in the ATHL. In order to test for conversion to OOTP6, I ran the 2007 season 10 times after converting. My team's top prospect, pitcher Carlos Carrion, is one of the best prospects in the league. He is still a top prospect when converting. The problem is that his performance and actual ratings in the converted leagues are much worse. start of 2007 in our sim, with OOTP5: 2 avoiding H, 8 avoiding BB, 8 getting K Performance: AA: 174 IP, 37 BB, 294 K start of 2007 averages in OOTP6 tests: 4 stuff, 1 control, 3 movement Performance: A: 175 IP, 60 BB, 120 K It's not just that he had much worse K/BB numbers in OOTP6. It's that he had much worse numbers in CLASS A, as opposed to shredding AA ball despite a relatively high ERA. I don't know how this happens...how a guy who Ks over 1.5 batters per inning goes to only striking out less than one against easier competition. Can anybody give me any insight on why this happened??? I took on a huge salary and gave up a nice young SP in a trade for this guy, and I want to get the value I traded for.

04-21-2004, 08:20 PM	#2
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	My guess would be the prospect sucked in avoiding hits. To compensate, his other numbers would have to be adjusted or he'd be way too good. I had a similar prospect who's talent is all 8's, but as for his ability, his K's went WAY down, his walks went way up... but his ERA remained fairly close because it was done to compensate for his crappy avoiding hits ability. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

04-23-2004, 12:34 AM	#5
dougk62 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Tonganoxie, KS Posts: 304	Does this maybe answer your questions? http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=60093 __________________ NABA - Calgary Wolfpack JOBL - Jacksonville Express Creator of Offensive Value Rating Reports

04-26-2004, 08:18 PM	#10
TheRockCT All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: TN Posts: 1,083	What I've seen in multiple conversion tests is whacky control imports. Stuff ratings and Movement ratings seem to import well based on DIPS theory and how a player was rated in v.5. However, I've had guys with 5's and 6's in Avoiding Walks (v.5) import into v.6 with 9/100, 13/100, etc. in the new Control rating. I've had 7's and 8's in Avoiding Walks in v.5 import into v.6 with 32/100, 39/100, etc. On the other hand I've seen some pitchers with 6's and 7's import into v.6 with 100/100 in Control, but with a Talent rating of like 59/100, which will cause that "undeserved" 100 to fall really really quickly. I thought at first in may have to do with their old Getting K's rating and Pitching Velocity, but I've seen these drastic conversions from guys with 2's in K's & Velocity and guys with 10's in K's and Velocity. It's just a bit dramatic. So, yes, I understand completely that the new engine's caused fluctuations, but what I'd like to know is, what other factors are being considered in the conversion from v.5's Avoiding Walks to v.6's Control? I would think they would be at least a little closer in resemblance. The Stuff/Movement ratings are the ratings I think would have given me the most problems, but from what I can tell, it's been Control more than anything. __________________ GM, Vermont Emperor Penguins - POTD POTD Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013 GM, Monterrey Aztecs* - NABA *NABA Champions: 2013

04-22-2004, 11:32 PM	#4
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	An update...I simmed future seasons, and in OOTP6, this guy never develops. Doing a similar series of tests in OOTP5, this guy becomes a decent starter who is constantly near the top of the league in Ks. Anybody?

04-23-2004, 12:36 AM	#6
danwaechter Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 67	I'm fairly certain that the reason is because you're putting emphasis on K's in OOTP5. In version 5, K's has basically no affect in the actual performance of a pitcher; It's simply cosmetic. So, when coding conversions, Markus knew that if a high K pitcher in OOTP5 turned into a high K rating in OOTP6(where K's are important due to the DIPS system), then pitchers performances in version 5 compared to 6 would be way off. So, I'm guessing your pitcher had a low 'avoid hits' rating in version 5, which seems to be the most important rating that affects the Stuff and Movement ratings in OOTP6, as it should be.

04-26-2004, 07:07 PM	#9
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	After doing some more research, it's not DIPS that is my issue, it's definitely just the ratings conversion. Even using the old ratings engine in OOTP6, the problem continues. So here's a question for the gurus - Using Stuff, Control and Movement, how could I best create a player with this AA line: 4.14 ERA, 174 IP, 186 H, 37 BB, 294 K

04-26-2004, 09:00 PM	#11
RonCo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 10,334	One thing I haven't seen noted in other conversion threads is the years of service. I've converted a league over and seen minor leaguers with time in service in odd increments. Any idea what's up with that?