My OOTP Impressions (Long)

Erithtotl · 04-19-2004, 11:48 AM

The other thread kinda died and lacks a lot of useful information, so here are my impressions playing this weekend. To preface, I am an OOTP die-hard, playing both here in the GGOOTP league since its inception, and playing hundreds of seasons of OOTP solo since version 4.

My first impression is that OOTP6 is a heck of a lot like OOTP5, which in turn wasn't dramatically different from OOTP4. The UI is identical for the most part, and I would say roughly %90 of the screens are the same as they were in OOTP5.

Once I got beyond this disappointment and started digging around in the game, and playing a few seasons, I discovered some genuinely interesting additions, as well as some that didn't add so much, as well as plenty of frustrations and bugs.

The big additions for OOTP6 fall into the following categories:

League setup and customization

The amount of options you have when setting up your league are quite expansive, and will especially be useful for online leagues. One of thoe more interesting options is setting up the parameters used for the AI and players themselves to calcuate player value. You can weight this towards ratings, and any of the previous 3 years of statistics. The only problem with this is that you don't know which statistics the AI uses, and/or how it deals with sample size. For example, does it use traditional measurements, like BA, HR, RBI, SB, or more Sabermetric calculations like OBP and SLG? Do they adjust for park and league effects? I don't know.

Ratings system

The ratings settings allow you to set how much information you want to display about a player's ratings. For those who aren't familiar with OOTP, ratings are split into three categories. Ability ratings are the ratings you get for a player's primary abilities, like Contact, HR Power, or Control (for pitchers). Talent ratings correspond to each ability and determine the potential in each area. A third area covers things like fielding ability, baserunning speed, bunting, etc.

The new engine allows you to choose fine grained (like 1-100), to corse grained (1-5) or even none, for each of these categories, which determines how much information you're going to see about your players. In addition, you can choose whether or not you want to see the 'Star' rating which shows you a general high level judgement of a player's value as a prospect or major leaguer.

Reguardless of what system you use, OOTP6 will use the 1-100 or whatever it is under the hood, you are only changing the information available to you.

To me this is a big feature because it allows you to do something you could never before do in most sports sims, which is turn off the ratings altogether and fly on stats alone. That is the ultimate challenge, and for the most part, it works, though not without some real problems.

Nothing has really been done to compensate for the lack of ratings. The trade screen was not modified at all, so turning off ratings means that there are few if no ways to search for players. You can't search by star rating or by stats.

Also, the scouting reports are not really expanded in any way, so you can't get useful info that way. It might also have been useful to show a 'star rating history' in the player's stat card so you can see that a guy was once a 5 star prospect, which might give you some incentive to take a chance on him, on the possibility he might have some potential. Additionally, when you start a new league with generated players, no historical stats exist for those players, so you really have to play with ratings on for your first couple of seasons.

So in effect playing with no ratings is even harder than it should be, but for those of us who have 'mastered' single player OOTP, it is a welcome and challenging addition.

Another problem I noticed is that turning off ratings also turns off a pitcher's endurance, which I found an odd decision, I would think it would fall under the 'other' category, along with baserunning speed and fielding. For that matter, I think it would be logical to group some ratings under 'physical' which can be kept on while other ratings are off. For example, I will always know how fast a player is from his 40 time, reguardless of whether I know if he can hit or not.

Another big problem is that a lof the game seems to have not been adjusted for the new ratings system. I constantly get reports that a player has learned a new position and how has a '43' rating for that position, even though I'm using 1-5 ratings for fielding. The player development report reports improvements in player talent, as normal, but no indication as to the quantity of that improvement, so I don't really have the ability to interpret that information in a useful manner.

Statistical engine

The new stats engine is a big innovation for OOTP. Instead of using ratings that correspond to specific stats, the new engine rates pitchers on their ability to get strikeouts, avoid walks and avoid homers, and leaves the rest up to the defense, according to modern statistical theory. It also removes the 'hitting triples' ability and factors that into a combination of speed and doubles power.

The result is in theory you should be able to look at a hitter or pitcher's statistical record and get a real idea of the player's ability. For the most part, this seems to work, though again, evaluating players who have not reached their potential is made unnecissarily hard if you turn ratings off, and there are no easy tools for seperating defense and park effects from a player's performance.

For most casual OOTP players this will make little difference to their playing experience, but for those of us who are tired of seeing guys with 80 BB and 70 K and a 2.30 ERA, it should bring some relief.

Another new addition is that minor league games can now be simulated by the engine instead of just randomly assigning stats. I'm not sure what value this adds though, I could discern no difference.

Waivers / 40 man roster

By implementing the waivers and 40 man roster rule, OOTP has added a whole new level to playing the game, especially in solo play. I found by combining no-ratings mode with waivers, the additional challenge brought on had me searching the waiver wire for short term pickups, replacements, and platoon players in an effort to give my team that tiny edge that might pick up one extra win in the standings. This is something I never really had to do in OOTP5, where I would have such a backlog of talent on my roster that such small adjustments were never necissary.

The main problem with waivers and the 40 man roster is that the interface is quite messy. The new transactions screen, where players are placed on the 40 man roster, put on waivers, promoted or demoted, or placed on the DL and trading block, is poorly implemented. First, the boxes in the UI are all the same size reguardless of utility. There might be 10 slots in the 40 man roster box, but also 10 slots in the trading block box, or DL box, meaning that you end up doing a lot of unnecissary scrolling. In addition, there are strange UI design decisions like forcing a player to be placed on the 40 man roster before being placed on the ML roster (why not just make it automatic)? Additionally, there is one major bug, where players placed on the the DL Will sometimes loose their 40 man roster spot. Since the screen will not allow you to place them on the 40 man from the DL, you have to first move them to the minors. Unfortunately, veterans will refuse to be placed in the minors, meaning you have to cut your player in order to get them off the DL. This needs to be fixed ASAP. As it can be a potential gamebreaker.

Waiver wire trading also seems somewhat peculiar. If a AI team claims a player on my team, I can open a trade window, only there is nothing in it. I should be able to negotiate a trade with a claiming team, or pull the player back off wavers.

Rule 5 draft

The rule 5 draft is another major addition to OOTP6, but at least in solo play it adds little or no value. Basically it allows teams to pick from your roster any player with 3 years of professional experience who is not on your 40 man roster. In solo play, I've discovered that there are NEVER any worthwhile players made available in the rule 5 draft. The best I've seen is a 2-star prospect. Additionally, anyone taken in the rule 5 draft must remain on your active (25 man) roster the whole season, wasting a critical roster spot. Finally, if you want to skip through the draft, sometimes the computer will pick guys for you, who you will then have to cut. The only way I could see this as a useful addition is in online leagues where teams might horde prospects. Also, I am unsure if in real life a rule 5 player has to be on the 25 man roster or the 40 man roster, but keeping them on the 25 man roster makes the benefits very limited.

Other additions

The amateur draft has been changed to distinguish between college players and high school players. I'm not exactly sure how this effects the game, as it seemed that the high school players and college players have similar abilities (when I had ratings turned on), only the high schoolers are younger. Rather than the college players starting with near ML-ready abilities already, they seemed to have the same low ratings as their high school counterparts. Additionally, the draft seems to have little or no depth. Especially amongst college players it should be possible to pluck potential relievers and bit players even in the latest rounds. Stats are given for the players, as well as level of competition they face, but it is difficult to see how these could be usefully interpreted. It seems like this could be the beginning of an excellent new feature, but hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.

Disappointments

There are many areas where I feel that OOTP6 needed improvement and yet nothing was done.

The trade screen, as mentioned above, is unchanged. The ability to search by handedness, star rating, stats, etc has been long needed but no changes have been made here except for the ability to add cash in deals.

Manager mode remains untouched from the previous version, which is a disappointment. Also, the ability to turn off scouts and coaches in manager mode seems to be missing, which is annoying for those of us who feel they detract from the game. To that effect, coaches and scouts still work the same flawed way they have in the past. Since they are rated only on the positive effect they have, and not with strengths and weaknesses in different areas (like plate patience, fielding, power, etc), there is little reason not to just buy the best coaches and scouts possible.

Personalities for general managers has still not been added, so every team trades, drafts, and manages their team the same way. Also, as far as I can tell, no logic has been put in to have teams trade based on their position in the 'success cycle' (i.e. trade for prospects when bad, stars when competiing, etc).

Complex contracts for players (with incentives, bonuses, etc) are still missing.

The annoying contract renegotiation/free agency negotiation method is still being used where often players will ask you to take a wild guess as to how much money they want, which makes no sense whatsoever, and never has, and has only been a source of frustration (in real life, a player will always give you some idea of what they want, though it might be wildly out of line with what they are worth or will accept).

And of course, there are lots of bugs. I personally had several 'crash your machine entirely' type bugs until I turned off Direct 3D support. There's the aforementioned disabled list bug, and many other bugs that appear on the OOTP message boards.

Conclusion

OOTP6 is disappointing in the number of improvements it features, but it is still head-and-shoulders above the competition, at least as far as baseball goes. It still suffers in comparison to some games in other sports, most notably Championship Manager. If you played OOTP5 to death, or didn't play it at all and are looking for a text based baseball sim, OOTP6 is the way to go. On the other hand, if you were a casual player of OOTP5, you might not find OOTP6 a big enough improvement to warrant an upgrade. Markus will most certainly add some new features (head-to-head internet mode is already on its way) before OOTP6 has ended its run, but these will also likely be small incremental tweaks and bug fixes.

It seems clear to me that the text-based baseball sim market desperately needs some real competition, in order to spur OOTP to make some revolutionary rather than evolutionary improvements. Much like Madden didn't improve significantly until NFL 2K came out, OOTP will likely show few large improvements until a competitor makes some noise. Perhaps the next offering from PureSim might be what is needed.

Queensryche · 04-19-2004, 12:03 PM

Excellent post...I pretty much agree with you 100%...I'm still having much fun with OOTP6....much more than I had with Inside The Park!

cody8200 · 04-19-2004, 12:04 PM

Great review! I feel much the same way...especially about the trading issues.

LAH · 04-19-2004, 12:21 PM

I am enjoying OOTP6 as well.

But I hope this is the last version using this same design.

I think the game should be re-worked from the ground up, with changes which will effect those who like to sim and those who like to play out games.

I enjoying managing all my teams games, but I think there is much which can be done to make OOTP a more realistic game manager.

I know there are a lot of people who could care less about the in game aspect. But I do. It is a BASEBALL game, afterall.

Cheers.

dodgerkyle · 04-19-2004, 12:45 PM

I agree. The deficiencies of OOTP6 should have taken precedence over the development of Inside the Park.

PotatoPeeler · 04-19-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erithtotl

In solo play, I've discovered that there are NEVER any worthwhile players made available in the rule 5 draft. The best I've seen is a 2-star prospect.

What are you expecting to see? 4 and 5 star prospects? Anyone in a team's minor league was worth anything will be on the 40 man roster. There are 15 minor leaguers you can protect on the 40 man roster. If you look at most OOTP teams, they have at best four or five 3 1/2 to 5 star prospects. That leaves 10 spaces available for the 3 star and 2 1/2 star prospects and such.

Quote:

Originally posted by Erithtotl

Also, I am unsure if in real life a rule 5 player has to be on the 25 man roster or the 40 man roster, but keeping them on the 25 man roster makes the benefits very limited.

For those of you curious on the specifics of the Rule V draft, go here: http://www.baseballprimer.com/articl...-07-04_0.shtml

Erithtotl · 04-19-2004, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PotatoPeeler
What are you expecting to see? 4 and 5 star prospects? Anyone in a team's minor league was worth anything will be on the 40 man roster. There are 15 minor leaguers you can protect on the 40 man roster. If you look at most OOTP teams, they have at best four or five 3 1/2 to 5 star prospects. That leaves 10 spaces available for the 3 star and 2 1/2 star prospects and such.

For those of you curious on the specifics of the Rule V draft, go here: http://www.baseballprimer.com/articl...-07-04_0.shtml

Agreed, there shouldn't be an abundance of quality players in the rule 5 draft. But every year teams pluck a few decent prospects and real contributors during the rule 5 draft, which won't really happen when the best you can get is a 2 star prospect or 1 1/2 star major leaguer. It's not a big issue, I just didn't see a lot of value in this feature the way its implemented now.

PotatoPeeler · 04-19-2004, 01:07 PM

As near as I can tell, it's implemented exactly how MLB does it. Of course, MLB clubs have a lot more guys in the minors than your average OOTP team. What would you change?

DavidPuddy · 04-19-2004, 01:08 PM

I haven't played it enough yet to give an overall estimation, but the one thing that so far has bothered me, is anytime a trade is made where you are acquiring a Active Roster player, you have to go to the transaction screen and promote them...what I don't like about this is that, if you trade for a player that can refuse a assignment to the minors b/c of service time, you can actually assign him there by trading for him, and then not promoting him...just something that bothers me

Cooker · 04-19-2004, 01:09 PM

But in real life very few ML teams make any Rule V selections. So I'd be disappointed if OOTP6 had too many of them.

One big reason for adding Rule V was to make it harder for solo players (like me) to hoard mature prospects in the minors. Now I have to promote & protect and them on the 40 man roster, deal them, or (possibly) lose them. It adds realism and eliminates the need for a "house rule." I like it.

rasnell · 04-19-2004, 01:14 PM

Your post is right on target. This is the best game on the market, but OOTP 6 is resting on the laurels of OOTP 5. With the bugs and crashes, it might have been worth waiting on the patch(es).

The play-by-play page is a real step backward in readability and graphics -- very critical elements to solo play nuts like myself.

Some functions now lock up and crash or don't work at all. For example, try searching for a player by ratings in the trade window and add minimum contact to any level above 0. No player displays. This was fully functional in OOTP 5.

My greatest gripe is reserved for the beta testers. With all the time and release expectations, we were assured that all this time was needed to make everything ready.

How could beta testers miss so many inoperable or crash-causing functions when we discover it within the first 10 minutes.

Try looking at the player card while in a trade window, for example. Immediate crash, as well-documented in the bug report part of this forum.

In the Park was so poor that I actually returned it and got a refund. And I consider myself a great fan of what Markus has created. OOTP 5 sets the bar very high. OOTP 6 looks more like the subsequent year of an EA Sports game.

Erithtotl · 04-19-2004, 01:17 PM

I wouldn't be too aggressive on criticizing the beta testers. I don't know all the details, but Markus said he was adding features all the way up to the last minute, so you never know what problems he could have introduced then. I know from personal experience that often you introduce bugs when you're putting in stuff near the end of a development cycle after the testers are done with it.

Ktulu · 04-19-2004, 01:28 PM

Nice post, sums up how I feel quite well.

Its too bad that the 40 man roster rules and rule V are so poorly implemented. Its great that its there but the combination of a poor user interface and the bugs is dissapointing to say the least. Atleast most of the bugs should be fixed in an update, but I would be very surprised if the interface was changed.

The lack of GM AI, in terms of the "success cycle", is an extreme oversight. It makes the new roster rules practicaly pointless. How can the AI manage a 40 man roster if it doesnt know what its goal is?

The amateur draft is pretty cool at first, until you realize its exactly the same as before. The difference is the older players are now college players and the younger players are now high school'rs. The scouting report is a nice idea but is essentially useless outside of the first round due to the lack of depth in the draft. Its a nice start but it really needs to be fleshed out.

I am also dissapointed that the user interface is still the same poor design. Its simply a mess and really needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. A windows GUI is the way to go IMO. The ability to have a right click context menu would do wonders for the transaction screen.

I guess my overall impression, after a weekend of OOTP6, is pretty much been there done that. The new engine is probably a necessary building block for improving the game in the future but I am afraid it took up a lot of time and the rest of the game suffers because of it. Nothing was done to improve the financial system, general manager AI or the user interface. Three of the areas where OOTP5 suffered. Hopefully a few updates will work out some of the kinks in the roster system and maybe have a few surprises but in the end my opinion is that OOTP6 is essentially OOTP5 with a different engine and a few new roster rules.

Erithtotl · 04-19-2004, 01:29 PM

I wouldn't be too aggressive on criticizing the beta testers. I don't know all the details, but Markus said he was adding features all the way up to the last minute, so you never know what problems he could have introduced then. I know from personal experience that often you introduce bugs when you're putting in stuff near the end of a development cycle after the testers are done with it.

atomheart · 04-19-2004, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ktulu
The lack of GM AI, in terms of the "success cycle", is an extreme oversight. It makes the new roster rules practicaly pointless. How can the AI manage a 40 man roster if it doesnt know what its goal is?

Great point. I would hope that SOMETHING would be added in a future patch regarding this, instead of waiting for OOTP7.

Specs · 04-19-2004, 01:40 PM

As far as I can remember, at least from Boston, the most succesful Rule V choices have been mediocre pitchers such as Vaughn Eshelman and Chris Reitsma.

However, I think this is great in OOTP. There are a few players I would pluck from rival CDL teams if I could because they aren't on the big club and I would put them on my team for a whole season, most notably Johnny Abrego of the Houston Astros.

http://www.cdl.ootp-leagues.com/files/p42.html

Bears5122 · 04-19-2004, 01:47 PM

I agree 100% with your review. I was overall disappointed in the product this year. It's still worth the money, but it is sad to see very few legit improvements.

My biggest disappointment would be in the development of career mode. I'd have thought that some things like expansion drafts, building new stadiums and relocation would have been added to the system. I take this off of the new owner mode in Madden 2004 that seemed to implement this well.

Eventually other games will catch up to OOTP with the slow progress it makes. I think the new ITP really hurt the progress of this game. It feels somewhat rushed and just something that was thrown together real quick over the past month or two.

Markus Heinsohn · 04-19-2004, 02:11 PM

Bears5122 - Sorry that you're disappointed. But let me say you that the new engine really took lots of time, and I think it is well worth it. It was time for an overhaul, and I feel now that the basics are in perfect shape, I can proceed and add more features like expansion drafts etc.

Again, for me, the new engine makes OOTP 6 a whole new experience compared to OOTP 5. And I know that many people do agree with me here. I kindly suggest you take some time and dig deeper into the new version, and maybe you'll find the improvements not that insignificant anymore.

Just my .02

Ktulu · 04-19-2004, 02:21 PM

Markus, despite my negative impressions of OOTP6 it is a great game just not much of an upgrade form previous versions. That said I knew what I was getting, I knew OOTP6 wasnt going to be that much of a step up from 5.

Its great that the new engine is in place and I understand that it was critical for the future of the game. It was a necessary 'building block'. I can only hope that the next building block on your list is the financial system. IMO the financial system is the basic building block to the CPU team management AI.

Anyway keep up the good work, once you work out the 40 man roster issues I am sure I will have a lot of fun with this game.

Bears5122 · 04-19-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
Bears5122 - Sorry that you're disappointed. But let me say you that the new engine really took lots of time, and I think it is well worth it. It was time for an overhaul, and I feel now that the basics are in perfect shape, I can proceed and add more features like expansion drafts etc.

Again, for me, the new engine makes OOTP 6 a whole new experience compared to OOTP 5. And I know that many people do agree with me here. I kindly suggest you take some time and dig deeper into the new version, and maybe you'll find the improvements not that insignificant anymore.

Just my .02

I think you do a great job with your game. It is worth the $35. I just didn't see the gameplay as that pressing of a need. To be honest, I never had a gripe with the old system with the exception of a few tweaks.

More and more gamers get into the "career mode" aspect of the game. In games like Madden, All Star Baseball and others, they've focused primarily on this portion of the game. I don't think there is that large of a group that plays out all their games. I probably play out more games than the average guy and I wasn't even pressing for the new DIPS engine.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I was excited for more being added to the manager mode aspect. I really thought this "role-playing" type mode was the future of OOTP. Being able to navigate a career as one individual while trying to keep your jobs and getting better offers seemed like the next step. What's better than re-vamping a crummy squad like the Devil Rays to get your shot with the Yankees.

Expansion and more complex finances also interested me. I'd love to see leagues have votes on expansion and dropping teams. Also seeing teams occasionally relocate sounds interesting and realistic. I also think trying to gain public support for new stadiums and thus more revenue would be an interesting task.

Just my .02

04-19-2004, 11:48 AM	#1
Erithtotl Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 330	My OOTP Impressions (Long) The other thread kinda died and lacks a lot of useful information, so here are my impressions playing this weekend. To preface, I am an OOTP die-hard, playing both here in the GGOOTP league since its inception, and playing hundreds of seasons of OOTP solo since version 4. My first impression is that OOTP6 is a heck of a lot like OOTP5, which in turn wasn't dramatically different from OOTP4. The UI is identical for the most part, and I would say roughly %90 of the screens are the same as they were in OOTP5. Once I got beyond this disappointment and started digging around in the game, and playing a few seasons, I discovered some genuinely interesting additions, as well as some that didn't add so much, as well as plenty of frustrations and bugs. The big additions for OOTP6 fall into the following categories: League setup and customization The amount of options you have when setting up your league are quite expansive, and will especially be useful for online leagues. One of thoe more interesting options is setting up the parameters used for the AI and players themselves to calcuate player value. You can weight this towards ratings, and any of the previous 3 years of statistics. The only problem with this is that you don't know which statistics the AI uses, and/or how it deals with sample size. For example, does it use traditional measurements, like BA, HR, RBI, SB, or more Sabermetric calculations like OBP and SLG? Do they adjust for park and league effects? I don't know. Ratings system The ratings settings allow you to set how much information you want to display about a player's ratings. For those who aren't familiar with OOTP, ratings are split into three categories. Ability ratings are the ratings you get for a player's primary abilities, like Contact, HR Power, or Control (for pitchers). Talent ratings correspond to each ability and determine the potential in each area. A third area covers things like fielding ability, baserunning speed, bunting, etc. The new engine allows you to choose fine grained (like 1-100), to corse grained (1-5) or even none, for each of these categories, which determines how much information you're going to see about your players. In addition, you can choose whether or not you want to see the 'Star' rating which shows you a general high level judgement of a player's value as a prospect or major leaguer. Reguardless of what system you use, OOTP6 will use the 1-100 or whatever it is under the hood, you are only changing the information available to you. To me this is a big feature because it allows you to do something you could never before do in most sports sims, which is turn off the ratings altogether and fly on stats alone. That is the ultimate challenge, and for the most part, it works, though not without some real problems. Nothing has really been done to compensate for the lack of ratings. The trade screen was not modified at all, so turning off ratings means that there are few if no ways to search for players. You can't search by star rating or by stats. Also, the scouting reports are not really expanded in any way, so you can't get useful info that way. It might also have been useful to show a 'star rating history' in the player's stat card so you can see that a guy was once a 5 star prospect, which might give you some incentive to take a chance on him, on the possibility he might have some potential. Additionally, when you start a new league with generated players, no historical stats exist for those players, so you really have to play with ratings on for your first couple of seasons. So in effect playing with no ratings is even harder than it should be, but for those of us who have 'mastered' single player OOTP, it is a welcome and challenging addition. Another problem I noticed is that turning off ratings also turns off a pitcher's endurance, which I found an odd decision, I would think it would fall under the 'other' category, along with baserunning speed and fielding. For that matter, I think it would be logical to group some ratings under 'physical' which can be kept on while other ratings are off. For example, I will always know how fast a player is from his 40 time, reguardless of whether I know if he can hit or not. Another big problem is that a lof the game seems to have not been adjusted for the new ratings system. I constantly get reports that a player has learned a new position and how has a '43' rating for that position, even though I'm using 1-5 ratings for fielding. The player development report reports improvements in player talent, as normal, but no indication as to the quantity of that improvement, so I don't really have the ability to interpret that information in a useful manner. Statistical engine The new stats engine is a big innovation for OOTP. Instead of using ratings that correspond to specific stats, the new engine rates pitchers on their ability to get strikeouts, avoid walks and avoid homers, and leaves the rest up to the defense, according to modern statistical theory. It also removes the 'hitting triples' ability and factors that into a combination of speed and doubles power. The result is in theory you should be able to look at a hitter or pitcher's statistical record and get a real idea of the player's ability. For the most part, this seems to work, though again, evaluating players who have not reached their potential is made unnecissarily hard if you turn ratings off, and there are no easy tools for seperating defense and park effects from a player's performance. For most casual OOTP players this will make little difference to their playing experience, but for those of us who are tired of seeing guys with 80 BB and 70 K and a 2.30 ERA, it should bring some relief. Another new addition is that minor league games can now be simulated by the engine instead of just randomly assigning stats. I'm not sure what value this adds though, I could discern no difference. Waivers / 40 man roster By implementing the waivers and 40 man roster rule, OOTP has added a whole new level to playing the game, especially in solo play. I found by combining no-ratings mode with waivers, the additional challenge brought on had me searching the waiver wire for short term pickups, replacements, and platoon players in an effort to give my team that tiny edge that might pick up one extra win in the standings. This is something I never really had to do in OOTP5, where I would have such a backlog of talent on my roster that such small adjustments were never necissary. The main problem with waivers and the 40 man roster is that the interface is quite messy. The new transactions screen, where players are placed on the 40 man roster, put on waivers, promoted or demoted, or placed on the DL and trading block, is poorly implemented. First, the boxes in the UI are all the same size reguardless of utility. There might be 10 slots in the 40 man roster box, but also 10 slots in the trading block box, or DL box, meaning that you end up doing a lot of unnecissary scrolling. In addition, there are strange UI design decisions like forcing a player to be placed on the 40 man roster before being placed on the ML roster (why not just make it automatic)? Additionally, there is one major bug, where players placed on the the DL Will sometimes loose their 40 man roster spot. Since the screen will not allow you to place them on the 40 man from the DL, you have to first move them to the minors. Unfortunately, veterans will refuse to be placed in the minors, meaning you have to cut your player in order to get them off the DL. This needs to be fixed ASAP. As it can be a potential gamebreaker. Waiver wire trading also seems somewhat peculiar. If a AI team claims a player on my team, I can open a trade window, only there is nothing in it. I should be able to negotiate a trade with a claiming team, or pull the player back off wavers. Rule 5 draft The rule 5 draft is another major addition to OOTP6, but at least in solo play it adds little or no value. Basically it allows teams to pick from your roster any player with 3 years of professional experience who is not on your 40 man roster. In solo play, I've discovered that there are NEVER any worthwhile players made available in the rule 5 draft. The best I've seen is a 2-star prospect. Additionally, anyone taken in the rule 5 draft must remain on your active (25 man) roster the whole season, wasting a critical roster spot. Finally, if you want to skip through the draft, sometimes the computer will pick guys for you, who you will then have to cut. The only way I could see this as a useful addition is in online leagues where teams might horde prospects. Also, I am unsure if in real life a rule 5 player has to be on the 25 man roster or the 40 man roster, but keeping them on the 25 man roster makes the benefits very limited. Other additions The amateur draft has been changed to distinguish between college players and high school players. I'm not exactly sure how this effects the game, as it seemed that the high school players and college players have similar abilities (when I had ratings turned on), only the high schoolers are younger. Rather than the college players starting with near ML-ready abilities already, they seemed to have the same low ratings as their high school counterparts. Additionally, the draft seems to have little or no depth. Especially amongst college players it should be possible to pluck potential relievers and bit players even in the latest rounds. Stats are given for the players, as well as level of competition they face, but it is difficult to see how these could be usefully interpreted. It seems like this could be the beginning of an excellent new feature, but hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. Disappointments There are many areas where I feel that OOTP6 needed improvement and yet nothing was done. The trade screen, as mentioned above, is unchanged. The ability to search by handedness, star rating, stats, etc has been long needed but no changes have been made here except for the ability to add cash in deals. Manager mode remains untouched from the previous version, which is a disappointment. Also, the ability to turn off scouts and coaches in manager mode seems to be missing, which is annoying for those of us who feel they detract from the game. To that effect, coaches and scouts still work the same flawed way they have in the past. Since they are rated only on the positive effect they have, and not with strengths and weaknesses in different areas (like plate patience, fielding, power, etc), there is little reason not to just buy the best coaches and scouts possible. Personalities for general managers has still not been added, so every team trades, drafts, and manages their team the same way. Also, as far as I can tell, no logic has been put in to have teams trade based on their position in the 'success cycle' (i.e. trade for prospects when bad, stars when competiing, etc). Complex contracts for players (with incentives, bonuses, etc) are still missing. The annoying contract renegotiation/free agency negotiation method is still being used where often players will ask you to take a wild guess as to how much money they want, which makes no sense whatsoever, and never has, and has only been a source of frustration (in real life, a player will always give you some idea of what they want, though it might be wildly out of line with what they are worth or will accept). And of course, there are lots of bugs. I personally had several 'crash your machine entirely' type bugs until I turned off Direct 3D support. There's the aforementioned disabled list bug, and many other bugs that appear on the OOTP message boards. Conclusion OOTP6 is disappointing in the number of improvements it features, but it is still head-and-shoulders above the competition, at least as far as baseball goes. It still suffers in comparison to some games in other sports, most notably Championship Manager. If you played OOTP5 to death, or didn't play it at all and are looking for a text based baseball sim, OOTP6 is the way to go. On the other hand, if you were a casual player of OOTP5, you might not find OOTP6 a big enough improvement to warrant an upgrade. Markus will most certainly add some new features (head-to-head internet mode is already on its way) before OOTP6 has ended its run, but these will also likely be small incremental tweaks and bug fixes. It seems clear to me that the text-based baseball sim market desperately needs some real competition, in order to spur OOTP to make some revolutionary rather than evolutionary improvements. Much like Madden didn't improve significantly until NFL 2K came out, OOTP will likely show few large improvements until a competitor makes some noise. Perhaps the next offering from PureSim might be what is needed.

04-19-2004, 12:04 PM	#3
cody8200 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,436	Great review! I feel much the same way...especially about the trading issues. __________________ Sharp Guys Web Design - Twitter: @sharpguysweb

04-19-2004, 12:21 PM	#4
LAH Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Field of Screams Posts: 445	I am enjoying OOTP6 as well. But I hope this is the last version using this same design. I think the game should be re-worked from the ground up, with changes which will effect those who like to sim and those who like to play out games. I enjoying managing all my teams games, but I think there is much which can be done to make OOTP a more realistic game manager. I know there are a lot of people who could care less about the in game aspect. But I do. It is a BASEBALL game, afterall. Cheers. __________________ The Captain

04-19-2004, 12:45 PM	#5
dodgerkyle Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 20	I agree. The deficiencies of OOTP6 should have taken precedence over the development of Inside the Park. Last edited by dodgerkyle; 04-19-2004 at 01:07 PM.

04-19-2004, 01:07 PM	#8
PotatoPeeler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 3,639	As near as I can tell, it's implemented exactly how MLB does it. Of course, MLB clubs have a lot more guys in the minors than your average OOTP team. What would you change? __________________ 培傑西 I have never taken a lesson on how to talk on TV in my life. - Tim McCarver Guns have only two enemies; rust and liberals. The world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel.

04-19-2004, 12:03 PM	#2
Queensryche Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 453	Excellent post...I pretty much agree with you 100%...I'm still having much fun with OOTP6....much more than I had with Inside The Park!

04-19-2004, 01:08 PM	#9
DavidPuddy Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NY Posts: 68	I haven't played it enough yet to give an overall estimation, but the one thing that so far has bothered me, is anytime a trade is made where you are acquiring a Active Roster player, you have to go to the transaction screen and promote them...what I don't like about this is that, if you trade for a player that can refuse a assignment to the minors b/c of service time, you can actually assign him there by trading for him, and then not promoting him...just something that bothers me __________________ "Feels Like An Arby's Night" "Yeah, that's right."

04-19-2004, 01:09 PM	#10
Cooker All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 592	But in real life very few ML teams make any Rule V selections. So I'd be disappointed if OOTP6 had too many of them. One big reason for adding Rule V was to make it harder for solo players (like me) to hoard mature prospects in the minors. Now I have to promote & protect and them on the 40 man roster, deal them, or (possibly) lose them. It adds realism and eliminates the need for a "house rule." I like it.

04-19-2004, 01:14 PM	#11
rasnell Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Frankfort, Kentucky Posts: 3,746	Your post is right on target. This is the best game on the market, but OOTP 6 is resting on the laurels of OOTP 5. With the bugs and crashes, it might have been worth waiting on the patch(es). The play-by-play page is a real step backward in readability and graphics -- very critical elements to solo play nuts like myself. Some functions now lock up and crash or don't work at all. For example, try searching for a player by ratings in the trade window and add minimum contact to any level above 0. No player displays. This was fully functional in OOTP 5. My greatest gripe is reserved for the beta testers. With all the time and release expectations, we were assured that all this time was needed to make everything ready. How could beta testers miss so many inoperable or crash-causing functions when we discover it within the first 10 minutes. Try looking at the player card while in a trade window, for example. Immediate crash, as well-documented in the bug report part of this forum. In the Park was so poor that I actually returned it and got a refund. And I consider myself a great fan of what Markus has created. OOTP 5 sets the bar very high. OOTP 6 looks more like the subsequent year of an EA Sports game. __________________ Charlie Root won more games for the Cubs than any pitcher (201), yet was remembered for one pitch to Babe Ruth. Find out more about the 1929 World Series in my book, "Root for the Cubs: Charlie Root and the 1929 Chicago Cubs." See the web site at www.rootforthecubs.com. The book is at http://www.amazon.com/Root-Cubs-Char...t+for+the+cubs. Beta tester, OOTP 2007-2023 and iOOTP 2011-2014.

04-19-2004, 01:17 PM	#12
Erithtotl Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 330	I wouldn't be too aggressive on criticizing the beta testers. I don't know all the details, but Markus said he was adding features all the way up to the last minute, so you never know what problems he could have introduced then. I know from personal experience that often you introduce bugs when you're putting in stuff near the end of a development cycle after the testers are done with it.

04-19-2004, 01:28 PM	#13
Ktulu Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: BC Posts: 4,710	Nice post, sums up how I feel quite well. Its too bad that the 40 man roster rules and rule V are so poorly implemented. Its great that its there but the combination of a poor user interface and the bugs is dissapointing to say the least. Atleast most of the bugs should be fixed in an update, but I would be very surprised if the interface was changed. The lack of GM AI, in terms of the "success cycle", is an extreme oversight. It makes the new roster rules practicaly pointless. How can the AI manage a 40 man roster if it doesnt know what its goal is? The amateur draft is pretty cool at first, until you realize its exactly the same as before. The difference is the older players are now college players and the younger players are now high school'rs. The scouting report is a nice idea but is essentially useless outside of the first round due to the lack of depth in the draft. Its a nice start but it really needs to be fleshed out. I am also dissapointed that the user interface is still the same poor design. Its simply a mess and really needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. A windows GUI is the way to go IMO. The ability to have a right click context menu would do wonders for the transaction screen. I guess my overall impression, after a weekend of OOTP6, is pretty much been there done that. The new engine is probably a necessary building block for improving the game in the future but I am afraid it took up a lot of time and the rest of the game suffers because of it. Nothing was done to improve the financial system, general manager AI or the user interface. Three of the areas where OOTP5 suffered. Hopefully a few updates will work out some of the kinks in the roster system and maybe have a few surprises but in the end my opinion is that OOTP6 is essentially OOTP5 with a different engine and a few new roster rules.

04-19-2004, 01:29 PM	#14
Erithtotl Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 330	I wouldn't be too aggressive on criticizing the beta testers. I don't know all the details, but Markus said he was adding features all the way up to the last minute, so you never know what problems he could have introduced then. I know from personal experience that often you introduce bugs when you're putting in stuff near the end of a development cycle after the testers are done with it.

04-19-2004, 01:47 PM	#17
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 850	I agree 100% with your review. I was overall disappointed in the product this year. It's still worth the money, but it is sad to see very few legit improvements. My biggest disappointment would be in the development of career mode. I'd have thought that some things like expansion drafts, building new stadiums and relocation would have been added to the system. I take this off of the new owner mode in Madden 2004 that seemed to implement this well. Eventually other games will catch up to OOTP with the slow progress it makes. I think the new ITP really hurt the progress of this game. It feels somewhat rushed and just something that was thrown together real quick over the past month or two.

04-19-2004, 02:11 PM	#18
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	Bears5122 - Sorry that you're disappointed. But let me say you that the new engine really took lots of time, and I think it is well worth it. It was time for an overhaul, and I feel now that the basics are in perfect shape, I can proceed and add more features like expansion drafts etc. Again, for me, the new engine makes OOTP 6 a whole new experience compared to OOTP 5. And I know that many people do agree with me here. I kindly suggest you take some time and dig deeper into the new version, and maybe you'll find the improvements not that insignificant anymore. Just my .02 __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

04-19-2004, 02:21 PM	#19
Ktulu Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: BC Posts: 4,710	Markus, despite my negative impressions of OOTP6 it is a great game just not much of an upgrade form previous versions. That said I knew what I was getting, I knew OOTP6 wasnt going to be that much of a step up from 5. Its great that the new engine is in place and I understand that it was critical for the future of the game. It was a necessary 'building block'. I can only hope that the next building block on your list is the financial system. IMO the financial system is the basic building block to the CPU team management AI. Anyway keep up the good work, once you work out the 40 man roster issues I am sure I will have a lot of fun with this game. __________________ "The ice is getting even more thinner, my friend!"