Players choosing to retire instead of being forced out of the game. . .

sixfour210 · 03-11-2004, 02:15 AM

Now that we're able to choose how much or how little players lose their talent as they age, if you have a 42 year old player who has good ratings still, will guys like this choose to retire because of their age despite their ratings? I know in High Heat and FPS Baseball, guys would maintain good ratings into their later years but choose to retire based on how their team is doing and their performance.

I just find that in OOTP, too many guys retire because their ratings zero out basically within the span of 1 or 2 seasons. I would like to see more players retire with respectable above average ratings.

I just want to know if, in OOTP6, since you'll have the option of having players stay good into their later years, if they'll voluntarily retire more often since they won't be forced to retire because they have no more talent or ratings.

Thanks

Skipaway · 03-11-2004, 05:27 AM

Since all retirement decisions are made at the same time, perhaps some kind of function can be added for gamers to "reject" a retirement.

Some kind of pop up window to toggle retire/unretire at the retirement stage should do.

Randall · 03-11-2004, 09:22 AM

And can you get a guy to come out of retirement (Clemens)?

BrewersFan2003 · 03-11-2004, 09:32 AM

I agree that the game should have an option where you can try to pursuade a player to come out of retirement if he still has ratings that can make him competitive still at his age. Like Randall mentioned, Roger Clemens is a good example being able to pitch in his hometown, but, I think players would maybe come back to possibly a ballclub they have played many years for, or something to that effect.

I think though players, even if they are on the wrong side of 40, and even in the late 30's, should only perform when their perfomance starts lacking along with their ratings slipping primarily lower than 3... In OOTP 5, I know I had many problems with people retiring with many good years left in the mid-30's, which made me quite frequently use the Un-retire utility. I know OOTP 6 has already taken the neccessary steps by including a variable that we can set ourselves to help curve when players retire and how they age, which I think is a good step. But will this be effective enough?

PSUColonel · 03-11-2004, 10:41 AM

The game is maent to be a challenge and throw (not to pun) curve balls at you. What is the fun in simply overriding things the universe(or in this case game) decide on. That's like saying I lost my All-Star LF for the season, but because that sucks I'm going to go back and reverse it so it didn't happen. Some options are good folks, but the amount there already are, and the amount people seem to want is just getting out of hand.

sixfour210 · 03-11-2004, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PSUColonel
The game is maent to be a challenge and throw (not to pun) curve balls at you. What is the fun in simply overriding things the universe(or in this case game) decide on. That's like saying I lost my All-Star LF for the season, but because that sucks I'm going to go back and reverse it so it didn't happen. Some options are good folks, but the amount there already are, and the amount people seem to want is just getting out of hand.

What he said.

I don't want to decide whether a guy retures or not, that's for the computer to decide. All I want is for more players to retire as a personal decision and not because their ratings are completely wiped out. I mean I just want to see more players retire with some dignity and not because they batted .120 or had a 35.00 ERA.

highvoltage · 03-11-2004, 01:58 PM

I agree, it's supposed to be a challenge. I mean when Vladimir's busted knee forced him into retirement and days later Javier Vazquez lost his career to a torn biceps muscle, I just rolled with the punches. The real Expos can't just override the fact that Vlad signed with the Angels. Do you want the game to be realistic or not?

ctorg · 03-11-2004, 02:22 PM

I just had a guy retire after winning the Cy Young, and he was only 38. That's a little young to hang up the cleats if you're still that good. Still, I suppose I could see it happening on occasion.

sixfour210 · 03-11-2004, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ctorg
I just had a guy retire after winning the Cy Young, and he was only 38. That's a little young to hang up the cleats if you're still that good. Still, I suppose I could see it happening on occasion.

Well something like a guy retiring after a Cy Young or MVP season should be changed. A couple factors need to go into whether a guy retires or not: How his team performed, how he performed, his current ratings, and if his contract is up.

legendsport · 03-11-2004, 02:44 PM

Wouldn't a guy retiring after winning a Cy or MVP constitute "going out on top?" I agree it's something that shouldn't happen very often (extremely rare, I would say - Koufax did it in real life, but that was related to arm troubles). That example almost refutes the "guys hanging around til the bitter end" argument (though have been some real life examples of that too - usually because a guy is close to a milestone).

I say almost because the hanging around til the bitter end seems to happen much more than it should.

Muppetus Galacticus · 03-11-2004, 04:45 PM

I think another thing the game should look at is injury history/proneness when deciding about a player's retirement.

I like the idea about asking a player to reconsider his retirement. Championship Manager has that option now.

Muppetus Galacticus

Henry · 03-11-2004, 04:55 PM

I'm of the opnion that voluntary retirements should be rare for a few reasons.... (1) it's difficult to turn down another 5 million dollars someone is willing to give you unless your not feeling up to the grind, and (2) most ballplayers who have been around 10-20 years enjoy what they're doing. It's usually the inability to continue playing, or a nagging injury that makes them quit.

Maybe what we need is an injury model that tends to "nag" at the older players as they're abilities start to dwindle... then each year, there's more and more of a chance the player will call it quits.

Henry

jmaness84 · 03-11-2004, 05:43 PM

I want some players to play until they are 45 and continue to play good. I rarely see that in OOTP. For instance I want some players to emulate Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Julio Franco, Edgar Martinez, etc.. and just keep playing like a superstar. I wouldn't want all of them to, but some atleast. This way we can see some pitchers with 300 wins in the modern ERA!

Crapshoot · 03-11-2004, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaness84
I want some players to play until they are 45 and continue to play good. I rarely see that in OOTP. For instance I want some players to emulate Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Julio Franco, Edgar Martinez, etc.. and just keep playing like a superstar. I wouldn't want all of them to, but some atleast. This way we can see some pitchers with 300 wins in the modern ERA!

Sigh.. That's because it is rare. You cited 7 examples (only 2 of which played till 45) over a 30 year period- does that not scream outlier to you ?

thomamon · 03-11-2004, 06:03 PM

Does anyone know if the default slowing down process will be better then it has in the past, or will it automatically be set to the way it is now?

TM

Steve Kuffrey · 03-11-2004, 06:11 PM

But the problem in previous versions to v5 was that too many players would play (fairly well) for too long. Over the long haul the player development curve is "fairly" accurate(I did not say perfect or that it could not use a slight tweak if deemed so). But I just do not think that it needs a major adjustment or that we need to "override" retirements.

Try just quick simming 100 or so seasons with all computer teams. The results are pretty solid.

Henry · 03-11-2004, 07:53 PM

Some facts...

There were only 32 total hitters (out of 4,728) that had careers 20 years or more.

There were only 31 total pitchers (out of 3,803) that had careers 20 years or more.

That doesn't leave much room for guys playing past 45 years old.

Henry

sixfour210 · 03-12-2004, 01:51 AM

I'm not asking to prolong players' careers necessarily, but I would like to see players leave with some dignity. I think when older players, say over 35, that hit the free agent market should have a retirement check done on them which decides whether they will retire or sign with a team.

I really just hate to see guys like Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn hit .220 their final year before they retire when in real life, they probably would have retired before that season. Also, IRL, HOF caliber players would never be put in a situation where they have to reject an assignment to the minors. I think they know before the season starts if they are capable of putting up the numbers they have in the past and if they don't think they are, they'll retire.

I think what should be done is slow the actual decline in ratings but players will retire at the same point as before because it won't take a drastic change for they to realize they need to hang it up. For Example:

The way it is now:
Tony Gwynn's AVG rating is 8 in 1999
drops to 6 in 2000
drops to 4 in 2001
drops to 3 in 2002 but decides to retire prior to the season

What I propose:
Tony Gwynn's AVG rating is 8 in 1999
stays at 8 in 2000
drops to 7 in 2001
drops to 6 in 2002 but decides to retire prior to the season

Both instances have Tony Gwynn retiring in 2002 but the second instance has him retiring "with some dignity". Maybe Gwynn decides that if he can't perform at his normal level, he'll hang it up. This is especially common with superstar players. Rarely do you see superstar players continue to play as average players. If they can't perform as superstars, they usually retire. At least that's the trend nowadays.

I think the guys you usually find playing into their 40s are the slightly above average stars like Julio Franco, John Franco, Jesse Orosco, Mark McLemore, Lenny Harris, etc. Maybe the above average guys in OOTP should have a higher chance of maintaining their ratings and playing well into their 40s.

Why not just let injuries decide when a player goes out. I like the idea that as a player gets older, his injury ratings changes to prone. This means as a players piles up the injuries, his ratings will fall for a reason. But some players should maintain their "normal" injury rating and keep their good ratings thereby allowing them to play well into their 40s.

lencombs · 03-12-2004, 02:27 AM

I agree in principle, but in some cases such as with The Crime Dog Fred McGriff...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...e?statsId=3579

.. it'd be a shame to see him to retire with dignity yet not reach 500 career HR's.
Maybe if the player was within a certain % of a Hall of Fame criteria it influences his decision to return, but I'm sure that's all kind's of extra coding.

rangerforlife · 03-12-2004, 02:34 AM

Well put!

Or, since St. Patrick's Day is approaching, in honor of the Guinness ads... brilliant!

03-11-2004, 02:15 AM	#1
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	Players choosing to retire instead of being forced out of the game. . . Now that we're able to choose how much or how little players lose their talent as they age, if you have a 42 year old player who has good ratings still, will guys like this choose to retire because of their age despite their ratings? I know in High Heat and FPS Baseball, guys would maintain good ratings into their later years but choose to retire based on how their team is doing and their performance. I just find that in OOTP, too many guys retire because their ratings zero out basically within the span of 1 or 2 seasons. I would like to see more players retire with respectable above average ratings. I just want to know if, in OOTP6, since you'll have the option of having players stay good into their later years, if they'll voluntarily retire more often since they won't be forced to retire because they have no more talent or ratings. Thanks __________________

03-11-2004, 05:27 AM	#2
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Since all retirement decisions are made at the same time, perhaps some kind of function can be added for gamers to "reject" a retirement. Some kind of pop up window to toggle retire/unretire at the retirement stage should do. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

03-11-2004, 09:22 AM	#3
Randall Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: VA Posts: 321	And can you get a guy to come out of retirement (Clemens)? __________________ Randall FORT - Atlanta Braves CPL - Pittsburg Pirates Formerly NABL - Philadelphia Phillies Formerly GMC - Vasto Rangers Formerly NBA - Atlanta Braves - 1973 Champ Formerly ThePBL - Anaheim Angels - 1975 Champ

03-11-2004, 01:58 PM	#7
highvoltage Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 13	I agree, it's supposed to be a challenge. I mean when Vladimir's busted knee forced him into retirement and days later Javier Vazquez lost his career to a torn biceps muscle, I just rolled with the punches. The real Expos can't just override the fact that Vlad signed with the Angels. Do you want the game to be realistic or not? __________________ "My s*** doesn't work in the playoffs" - Billy Beane

03-11-2004, 02:22 PM	#8
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I just had a guy retire after winning the Cy Young, and he was only 38. That's a little young to hang up the cleats if you're still that good. Still, I suppose I could see it happening on occasion. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

03-11-2004, 09:32 AM	#4
BrewersFan2003 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 75	I agree that the game should have an option where you can try to pursuade a player to come out of retirement if he still has ratings that can make him competitive still at his age. Like Randall mentioned, Roger Clemens is a good example being able to pitch in his hometown, but, I think players would maybe come back to possibly a ballclub they have played many years for, or something to that effect. I think though players, even if they are on the wrong side of 40, and even in the late 30's, should only perform when their perfomance starts lacking along with their ratings slipping primarily lower than 3... In OOTP 5, I know I had many problems with people retiring with many good years left in the mid-30's, which made me quite frequently use the Un-retire utility. I know OOTP 6 has already taken the neccessary steps by including a variable that we can set ourselves to help curve when players retire and how they age, which I think is a good step. But will this be effective enough?

03-11-2004, 10:41 AM	#5
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,140	The game is maent to be a challenge and throw (not to pun) curve balls at you. What is the fun in simply overriding things the universe(or in this case game) decide on. That's like saying I lost my All-Star LF for the season, but because that sucks I'm going to go back and reverse it so it didn't happen. Some options are good folks, but the amount there already are, and the amount people seem to want is just getting out of hand.

03-11-2004, 02:44 PM	#10
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	Wouldn't a guy retiring after winning a Cy or MVP constitute "going out on top?" I agree it's something that shouldn't happen very often (extremely rare, I would say - Koufax did it in real life, but that was related to arm troubles). That example almost refutes the "guys hanging around til the bitter end" argument (though have been some real life examples of that too - usually because a guy is close to a milestone). I say almost because the hanging around til the bitter end seems to happen much more than it should. __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

03-11-2004, 04:55 PM	#12
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	I'm of the opnion that voluntary retirements should be rare for a few reasons.... (1) it's difficult to turn down another 5 million dollars someone is willing to give you unless your not feeling up to the grind, and (2) most ballplayers who have been around 10-20 years enjoy what they're doing. It's usually the inability to continue playing, or a nagging injury that makes them quit. Maybe what we need is an injury model that tends to "nag" at the older players as they're abilities start to dwindle... then each year, there's more and more of a chance the player will call it quits. Henry

03-11-2004, 05:43 PM	#13
jmaness84 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,685	I want some players to play until they are 45 and continue to play good. I rarely see that in OOTP. For instance I want some players to emulate Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Julio Franco, Edgar Martinez, etc.. and just keep playing like a superstar. I wouldn't want all of them to, but some atleast. This way we can see some pitchers with 300 wins in the modern ERA!

03-11-2004, 06:03 PM	#15
thomamon Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 5,274	Does anyone know if the default slowing down process will be better then it has in the past, or will it automatically be set to the way it is now? TM __________________ Thomas A. Montalto Please check out my Stupid Little Blog - http://www.stupidlittleblog.com

03-11-2004, 06:11 PM	#16
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	But the problem in previous versions to v5 was that too many players would play (fairly well) for too long. Over the long haul the player development curve is "fairly" accurate(I did not say perfect or that it could not use a slight tweak if deemed so). But I just do not think that it needs a major adjustment or that we need to "override" retirements. Try just quick simming 100 or so seasons with all computer teams. The results are pretty solid. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

03-11-2004, 07:53 PM	#17
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Some facts... There were only 32 total hitters (out of 4,728) that had careers 20 years or more. There were only 31 total pitchers (out of 3,803) that had careers 20 years or more. That doesn't leave much room for guys playing past 45 years old. Henry

03-12-2004, 01:51 AM	#18
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	I'm not asking to prolong players' careers necessarily, but I would like to see players leave with some dignity. I think when older players, say over 35, that hit the free agent market should have a retirement check done on them which decides whether they will retire or sign with a team. I really just hate to see guys like Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn hit .220 their final year before they retire when in real life, they probably would have retired before that season. Also, IRL, HOF caliber players would never be put in a situation where they have to reject an assignment to the minors. I think they know before the season starts if they are capable of putting up the numbers they have in the past and if they don't think they are, they'll retire. I think what should be done is slow the actual decline in ratings but players will retire at the same point as before because it won't take a drastic change for they to realize they need to hang it up. For Example: The way it is now: Tony Gwynn's AVG rating is 8 in 1999 drops to 6 in 2000 drops to 4 in 2001 drops to 3 in 2002 but decides to retire prior to the season What I propose: Tony Gwynn's AVG rating is 8 in 1999 stays at 8 in 2000 drops to 7 in 2001 drops to 6 in 2002 but decides to retire prior to the season Both instances have Tony Gwynn retiring in 2002 but the second instance has him retiring "with some dignity". Maybe Gwynn decides that if he can't perform at his normal level, he'll hang it up. This is especially common with superstar players. Rarely do you see superstar players continue to play as average players. If they can't perform as superstars, they usually retire. At least that's the trend nowadays. I think the guys you usually find playing into their 40s are the slightly above average stars like Julio Franco, John Franco, Jesse Orosco, Mark McLemore, Lenny Harris, etc. Maybe the above average guys in OOTP should have a higher chance of maintaining their ratings and playing well into their 40s. Why not just let injuries decide when a player goes out. I like the idea that as a player gets older, his injury ratings changes to prone. This means as a players piles up the injuries, his ratings will fall for a reason. But some players should maintain their "normal" injury rating and keep their good ratings thereby allowing them to play well into their 40s. __________________ Last edited by sixfour210; 03-12-2004 at 02:00 AM.

03-12-2004, 02:27 AM	#19
lencombs All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Eureka, Ca Posts: 535	I agree in principle, but in some cases such as with The Crime Dog Fred McGriff... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...e?statsId=3579 .. it'd be a shame to see him to retire with dignity yet not reach 500 career HR's. Maybe if the player was within a certain % of a Hall of Fame criteria it influences his decision to return, but I'm sure that's all kind's of extra coding. __________________ "A passion for statistics is the earmark of a literate people." - Paul Fisher "Baseball isn't statistics. Baseball is (Joe) DiMaggio rounding second." - Jimmy Cannon Last edited by lencombs; 03-12-2004 at 02:35 AM.

03-12-2004, 02:34 AM	#20
rangerforlife Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: I want to hear from a clone! React to me!!! Posts: 225	Well put! Or, since St. Patrick's Day is approaching, in honor of the Guinness ads... brilliant!