Rate your GM

SoxWin · 03-04-2004, 06:03 PM

I'd like some opinions on the GM's for Mats/Draven's roster set. They need to be rated on a 1-10 scale (10 being the best obviously) in both scouting hitting and scouting pitching.

Feel free to chime in on as many of them as you'd like. The more opinions the better.

Raderick · 03-04-2004, 07:57 PM

San Diego Padres GM Kevin Towers
Scouting Hitters - 5
Scouting Pitcher - 7

Mel_Ott · 03-04-2004, 08:27 PM

San Francisco Giants GM Brian Sabean
Scouting Hitters - 6
Scouting Pitchers - 8

Sabean's been excellent at trading away guys who never make it for the extra parts to put around Bonds. Trading Armando Rios for Jason Schmidt was a stroke of brilliance. The only guy who he's traded as a minor-leaguer who's gone on to do anything worthwhile in the bigs is Keith Foulke.

Because the Giants' organizational philosophy has been to develop pitchers and hope for the best with hitters, it's hard to say how good Sabean is at noticing minor-league hitting talent, but he's better than average at the ML level (the Kent trade stands out, but Benito Santiago (FA pickup) had a season and change of productive hitting, and he's been pretty good at maximizing the return on the hitters he's traded (Darryl Hamilton for Ellis Burks was a good deal, for example).

Whether he really screwed up in the Ponson deal last year or just kinda screwed up remains to be seen, but that's really the only seriously-flawed deal I remember him making.

matskralc · 03-04-2004, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
Trading Armando Rios for Jason Schmidt was a stroke of brilliance.

Nonono. It was Ryan Vogelsong for Schmidt, and Rios for John Vander Wal.

Crapshoot · 03-04-2004, 08:45 PM

It was a group thing. And I disagree with Mel- Sabean's been amongs the best GM's in baseball.

SF: Brian Sabean
Hitters: 7
Pitchers: 10 (if anyone's a 10, its him- not Beane, who didn't actually draft any of the big 3)...

SD: Kevin Towers
Hitters: 7
Pitchers: 5

OAK: Billy Beane
Hitters: 8
Pitchers: 10

Dodgers: Paul DePodesta- can't really say yet.

CHW: Kenny Williams
Hitters: 3
Pitchers: 5

TEX: John Hart
Hitters: 8
Pitchers: 3

matskralc · 03-04-2004, 08:49 PM

I give the Pirates' Dave Littlefield a pair of 5s. It's not particularly his fault that McClatchy always has his hands tied, and keeps the $$$ safe nice and secure. And full.

Crapshoot · 03-04-2004, 08:54 PM

Dood-
Littlefield has made one passable deal- the Kip wells deal, and I attribute that to Williams' idiocy.

Otherwise, he gave away Ramirez and Lofton for nothing (the prospect involved was waived), traded two good prospects for Herges and then cut him before ST, left Chris Shelton, Walter Young and co unprotected so he could protect Jack Wilson, Mike Benjamin and co, and keeps signing 35 year olds to take the place of Craig Wilson. His Giles deal was so-so at best, and the really bad contract is still around, even though Kendall is a damn good player.

Mel_Ott · 03-04-2004, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
It was a group thing. And I disagree with Mel- Sabean's been amongs the best GM's in baseball.

SF: Brian Sabean
Hitters: 7
Pitchers: 10 (if anyone's a 10, its him- not Beane, who didn't actually draft any of the big 3)...

How exactly are we disagreeing? I submit that Sabean is a damn good GM, but he's not flawless - see the Ponson trade they didn't need to make and what it got them last year. I don't know that I'd rate anyone higher at evaluating pitchers, but that doesn't make him a 10 in my book - that would be a theoretically "perfect" GM - or a 9 (although I can see an argument there). As far as hitters go, you rate him slightly better than I do, but I'd say that's not a big disagreement - I'm mostly concerned with the Giants failure to develop good hitters (a result of the organizational plan, but something that has to be factored in at some point).

LivnLegend · 03-04-2004, 09:02 PM

...a couple of Giants fans arguing over whether their GM is a 9 or a perfect 10...sheesh

matskralc · 03-04-2004, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
Dood-
Littlefield has made one passable deal- the Kip wells deal, and I attribute that to Williams' idiocy.

Otherwise, he gave away Ramirez and Lofton for nothing (the prospect involved was waived), traded two good prospects for Herges and then cut him before ST, left Chris Shelton, Walter Young and co unprotected so he could protect Jack Wilson, Mike Benjamin and co, and keeps signing 35 year olds to take the place of Craig Wilson. His Giles deal was so-so at best, and the really bad contract is still around, even though Kendall is a damn good player.

Well, he did sign Lofton, Sanders, and Stairs in the first place, and got productive playing time out of all three of them.

He traded some bum prospect or two for Randall Simon.

The Ramirez trade was a money trade. McClatchy's fault, not Littlefield's. He never would even been moved if McClatchy hadn't basically forced it.

He actually managed to find a buyer for Mike Williams.

He actually managed to find a buyer for the Horrificly Overpaid Kendall, but McClatchy wouldn't eat enough of the contract.

I don't understand what happened with the rule V draft, either...if I recall correctly, they still had room on the 40 man. It's not like those guys got bumped for bums...they got bumped for nothing. Isn't there some sort of fee involved with the rule V? The cynic in me says McClatchy was after that money, too.

The Giles deal netted him a Really Good outfield prospect, and a Pretty Damn Good pitching prospect. In exchange for a guy that McClatchy didn't really want to pay anymore.

The lower minor leagues, the part of the organization that's been so far assembled by Littlefield, is recognized as being the strength of the (admittedly weak) organization. AA and A ball pitching prospects a plenty in the org.

Littlefield's handicaps are, again, almost entirely financial. It's not like I said the guy was an 8 hitters/9 pitchers, Aadik. I said he's an average GM. And an average GM stuck with Pittsburgh's payroll will pretty much do as Littlefield's done.

Mel_Ott · 03-04-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend
...a couple of Giants fans arguing over whether their GM is a 9 or a perfect 10...sheesh

Well, he's no Dan Evans.....

LivnLegend · 03-04-2004, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
Well, he's no Dan Evans.....

Let's hope there are NO more Dan Evans' out there!

Skipaway · 03-04-2004, 09:24 PM

I think we are rating the GMs' ability both to scout and to get the deal done in this case, while the GMs in game is only about the former?

Kelric · 03-04-2004, 11:53 PM

Theo Epstein:
Hitting - 8. The guy did put together an incredible offense last year after all.
Pitching - 6. A few guys busted last year but he hasn't made any real bad decisions. Of course he hasn't made any real good ones either. Schilling and Foulke were no brainer acquisitions if the money worked.

KILLERBS24 · 03-05-2004, 12:17 AM

Well I'd tell you about my Mariners but I'm not sure, I don't know much about Bavasi, maybe an old Angels fan could help out. I don't remember anything about his time with the Angels a while back.

Expos GM: Omar Minaya
Hitting:5
Pitching:4

Toronto GM: JP Riccardi
Hitting:6
Pitching:5

Yankees GM: Brian Cashman
Hitting:7
Pitching:6
(tough for me to say cuz they have unlimited money and mostly go for proven high level players and haven't acquired or developed many young players, may be a little low but I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's great at evaluation, they have had a lot of free agent busts, mostly pitchers.)

Oakland GM: Billy Beane
Hitters:9
Pitchers:8
(I think he's better at finding hitters than pitchers but I'm sure you'll get a lot of opinions on him so I'm sure it will all balance out to somewhere pretty close in the end)

holyroller · 03-05-2004, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
SF: Brian Sabean
Hitters: 7
Pitchers: 10 (if anyone's a 10, its him- not Beane, who didn't actually draft any of the big 3)...

Ehhhh...smoke much crack lately?

Beane drafted both Zito and Mulder. Not positive on Hudson, but I'm fairly certain that he did.

Edit - Alderson did pick Hudson, so props to him for that.

holyroller · 03-05-2004, 12:24 AM

Jim Hendry
Hitters: 6
Pitchers: 8

Crapshoot · 03-05-2004, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
Ehhhh...smoke much crack lately?

Beane drafted both Zito and Mulder. Not positive on Hudson, but I'm fairly certain that he did.

Edit - Alderson did pick Hudson, so props to him for that.

woops. my mistake. though FYI, Beane didn't want Zito- he wanted Ben Sheets, but since he couldn't sign a pre-draft deal, he went with Zito. A great GM, probably the best in the game- but still, to some extent, lucky.

Skipaway · 03-05-2004, 01:32 AM

Why bother rating GMs by how they draft pitchers? The sample size is very small, and the chance involved is too much.

crackpott · 03-05-2004, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KILLERBS24
Toronto GM: JP Riccardi
Hitting:6
Pitching:5

I find the rating you gave Cashman ridiculous. It's not hard to buy proven players.

JP... I'd give him more credit in hitting, as Myers, Cat, turned out to be pretty good aquisitions and he knew that Lopez sucked, but your pitching is probably about right. He hasn't done much to prove he knows what he's talking about in pitching. Tanyon Sturtze was just a nightmare every Jays fan knew before it happened.

I'd say 8/5

03-04-2004, 06:03 PM	#1
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	Rate your GM I'd like some opinions on the GM's for Mats/Draven's roster set. They need to be rated on a 1-10 scale (10 being the best obviously) in both scouting hitting and scouting pitching. Feel free to chime in on as many of them as you'd like. The more opinions the better. __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

03-04-2004, 07:57 PM	#2
Raderick Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,737	San Diego Padres GM Kevin Towers Scouting Hitters - 5 Scouting Pitcher - 7 __________________

03-04-2004, 08:27 PM	#3
Mel_Ott Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Where the deer and the antelope play Posts: 924	San Francisco Giants GM Brian Sabean Scouting Hitters - 6 Scouting Pitchers - 8 Sabean's been excellent at trading away guys who never make it for the extra parts to put around Bonds. Trading Armando Rios for Jason Schmidt was a stroke of brilliance. The only guy who he's traded as a minor-leaguer who's gone on to do anything worthwhile in the bigs is Keith Foulke. Because the Giants' organizational philosophy has been to develop pitchers and hope for the best with hitters, it's hard to say how good Sabean is at noticing minor-league hitting talent, but he's better than average at the ML level (the Kent trade stands out, but Benito Santiago (FA pickup) had a season and change of productive hitting, and he's been pretty good at maximizing the return on the hitters he's traded (Darryl Hamilton for Ellis Burks was a good deal, for example). Whether he really screwed up in the Ponson deal last year or just kinda screwed up remains to be seen, but that's really the only seriously-flawed deal I remember him making. __________________ jgross's worst nightmare!!!!111 Owner, Sin City Swingers, OBTL

03-04-2004, 08:45 PM	#5
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	It was a group thing. And I disagree with Mel- Sabean's been amongs the best GM's in baseball. SF: Brian Sabean Hitters: 7 Pitchers: 10 (if anyone's a 10, its him- not Beane, who didn't actually draft any of the big 3)... SD: Kevin Towers Hitters: 7 Pitchers: 5 OAK: Billy Beane Hitters: 8 Pitchers: 10 Dodgers: Paul DePodesta- can't really say yet. CHW: Kenny Williams Hitters: 3 Pitchers: 5 TEX: John Hart Hitters: 8 Pitchers: 3 __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

03-04-2004, 08:49 PM	#6
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	I give the Pirates' Dave Littlefield a pair of 5s. It's not particularly his fault that McClatchy always has his hands tied, and keeps the $$$ safe nice and secure. And full. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

03-04-2004, 08:54 PM	#7
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	Dood- Littlefield has made one passable deal- the Kip wells deal, and I attribute that to Williams' idiocy. Otherwise, he gave away Ramirez and Lofton for nothing (the prospect involved was waived), traded two good prospects for Herges and then cut him before ST, left Chris Shelton, Walter Young and co unprotected so he could protect Jack Wilson, Mike Benjamin and co, and keeps signing 35 year olds to take the place of Craig Wilson. His Giles deal was so-so at best, and the really bad contract is still around, even though Kendall is a damn good player. __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

03-04-2004, 09:02 PM	#9
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	...a couple of Giants fans arguing over whether their GM is a 9 or a perfect 10...sheesh __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

03-04-2004, 09:24 PM	#13
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	I think we are rating the GMs' ability both to scout and to get the deal done in this case, while the GMs in game is only about the former? __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

03-04-2004, 11:53 PM	#14
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	Theo Epstein: Hitting - 8. The guy did put together an incredible offense last year after all. Pitching - 6. A few guys busted last year but he hasn't made any real bad decisions. Of course he hasn't made any real good ones either. Schilling and Foulke were no brainer acquisitions if the money worked.

03-05-2004, 12:17 AM	#15
KILLERBS24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 938	Well I'd tell you about my Mariners but I'm not sure, I don't know much about Bavasi, maybe an old Angels fan could help out. I don't remember anything about his time with the Angels a while back. Expos GM: Omar Minaya Hitting:5 Pitching:4 Toronto GM: JP Riccardi Hitting:6 Pitching:5 Yankees GM: Brian Cashman Hitting:7 Pitching:6 (tough for me to say cuz they have unlimited money and mostly go for proven high level players and haven't acquired or developed many young players, may be a little low but I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's great at evaluation, they have had a lot of free agent busts, mostly pitchers.) Oakland GM: Billy Beane Hitters:9 Pitchers:8 (I think he's better at finding hitters than pitchers but I'm sure you'll get a lot of opinions on him so I'm sure it will all balance out to somewhere pretty close in the end)

03-05-2004, 12:24 AM	#17
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Jim Hendry Hitters: 6 Pitchers: 8 __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

03-05-2004, 01:32 AM	#19
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Why bother rating GMs by how they draft pitchers? The sample size is very small, and the chance involved is too much. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.