Joe Grim

cubedrum · 01-12-2004, 06:59 PM

I just wanted to mention this one major change in the ratings in my new database. Joe Grim should NOT have a CF of 10. This guy fought over 60 fights and didn't win even 1! To have him rated a 5 overall is an insult even to Butterbean. New CFs are 5 and overall a 2. Just felt I had to mention this because I was so outraged. About half way through the database verify and correct procedures. It's coming soon.

Cube

JeffR · 01-12-2004, 07:44 PM

Wow, you're right, Cube. How on earth does a guy whose only redeeming feature was the ability to take vast amounts of punishment rate a 10/10 CF and 5 intellect? You might want to bump his cut and knockout ratings down a bit, too - have a look at this article: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/joegrim.html

Jim Trunzo · 01-13-2004, 08:03 AM

Hang on, hang on! Outraged is a strong word. You've never seen me say anything about ratings other than do what you think is best if you don't like ours. However, I feel it necessary to address the above. Did you fight Grim against any of his real life opponents? Do you have a complete understanding of the way the ratings relate?

Joe Grim went 20 rounds on several occasions. He lost fights at 6, 8 and 10 rounds. But he never got stopped. The only way to come close to giving him a chance to perform as he did in real life is to keep him in the fight - not on the scorecards but in the fight! His other stats are below average - he's not going to beat anyone but the absolute slugs in his division, baring a statistical anomaly that occurs from time to time.

But you lower that 10/10 control factor and I guarantee that he won't finish a fight. He'll be TKO'd and quickly. His 4 KD guarantees that he'll go down and his other stats pretty much assure that he won't win. But only the combination of his CF/KD2/KO (which probably needs to be a 0), END/TKO keeps him in fights well enough to go the distance.

Listen, we certainly make mistakes or overrate and underrate fighters or differ in opinions of fighters and you SHOULD tinker with them. Just be sure that you look at the whole fighter before you start making blanket changes.

His INT should be a 1, not a 5. It was a typo.

And Joe Grim would have knocked out Butterbean.

JeffR · 01-13-2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Trunzo
Joe Grim went 20 rounds on several occasions. He lost fights at 6, 8 and 10 rounds. But he never got stopped.

Sorry, Jim, but that's wrong. His boxrec record shows several KO's, probably TKO's, and the article I cited says he was knocked out at least once.

Quote:

But you lower that 10/10 control factor and I guarantee that he won't finish a fight.

Actually, I cut in in half to 5/5, and changed his defense to +4, intellect to 1, and punching/counterpunching to 30/30, then fought him 100 times against Sam McVey, who stopped him in 12 rounds in real life. McVey only got a stoppage in 60% of the fights. Against Peter Maher, who he went 6 rounds with, Maher only got 18 TKO's and one KO in 100 tries.

dempsonny · 01-14-2004, 12:47 PM

I looked at Grim and he was stopped around 6 times. However could a negative rating be input as a TKO rating. I remember in TF2001 some of the women boxers had negative HP's. Maybe a negative rating in TKO or maybe the 0 rating for tko could allow a lot more punishment to be absorbed. The same for KO rating of 0. Maybe someone with a 0 KO rating shaouldn't be able to be knocked down.

Gus

Cap · 01-14-2004, 03:45 PM

One of Joe Grim's nicknames was "The India Rubber Man"* because when he got knocked down he just bounced back up. He would routinely get decked a dozen times by heavy hitters and come back for more.

Sailor Burke knocked him out late in his career (if you can call what Grim did a career), but I don't have the details of that one, so maybe it was really a panicky ref who stepped in to stop Grim from taking further punishment. These two met again a month later, and Grim went the distance.

Cap

Cap
* As opposed to Johnny Risko "The Cleveland Rubber Man"

Rasmuth · 01-15-2004, 01:58 AM

I enjoyed Jim's article (part 2 of rating fighters) specifically in response to this thread...but in my universe Joe Grim would probably get a fair amount of TKO's against him....for the simple reason that my universe is based more on todays world of boxing.

My IPBA uses random fighters from all generations mixed together in a modern boxing world...fighters are not being replayed in their own time.

So...I think its quite fair to figure that if Mr. Grim fought in todays boxing world...he would never go the distance in quite a few bouts because he wouldn't be allowed to. In todays' era of trying to protect the health of the athlete (or at least attempting to) he would never be allowed to absorb the punishment that he must have taking over all those bouts.

Also with the 3 knockdown rule being used in many bouts...its obvious what effect this would have on his bouts.

When I'm creating, rating and playtesting fighters (especially old-timers) I take this into account. Sometimes I may see more KO's/TKO's than a fighter actually had in real life but it's because of the referees decision, 3 knockdown rule, etc. that is prevalant in todays fight game.

Just thought I'd throw these thoughts in.

Keep those Universes rolling!

cubedrum · 01-15-2004, 06:56 AM

Just found the nicest Joe Grim picture by far on the net. Still slaving away on the database. Every day 30-50 photos added. This will be the big one. 2100 photos and counting. Why oh why wasn't I a beta tester. This would have been done pre-release. At least 40 hours so far that I would have happily donated to Jim and company. Maybe next time

Cube

PittPanther · 01-15-2004, 08:36 AM

Cube---you was robbed!

Cap · 01-15-2004, 09:16 PM

Cube, you are one gent who should have got this game gratis. For all the selfless work and time you've put into your picture archive without thought of recompense, I hereby award you the first official Cap's "Here's to Yah!" award.

Remember to hand the plaque back in on your way out. Those things don't grow on trees you know.

Cap

cubedrum · 01-15-2004, 09:23 PM

Wow, thanks Cap. Since I can't keep the placque I'll just take a photo of it and size it to 140x140.

Cube

RANGER11JP · 01-29-2004, 02:56 PM

Hey Guys,

I looked at Joe Grim on BoxRec.Com, and they show him winning a bout by a KO in 3 around his third fight. Is this correct or am I not reading something correctly?

JP

Roydboy · 01-29-2004, 03:37 PM

Cube, your photos are a great addition to the game. While I, for one, am eagerly awaiting more and can only imagine the effort involved. Thank you.

If you reply to this I would like to know why you're on the discussion board instead of adding more photos!

Just kidding, and thanks again.
Roy

crusadecat · 01-29-2004, 06:32 PM

After reading the article I have to concur not to take cf out of context. I think that I would defer to the Trunzo's on this one. You make a good point though Cube, he would be tko'd all the time in the modern version of the sport.

Dandriel · 02-05-2004, 08:26 PM

Yeah..I'll agree with Cube as well... he'd be stopped in a lot of his fights.

He'd probably end up getting a job in the industry after his career in this day and age, if nothing else out of pity.

In some sick way, I have to admire his drive to fight, even once it was pointedly obvious to even him that he was never going to win a fight.

Really, the whole story's kind of a downer...one of those pointed illustrations that even though heart counts for a lot in this world, it won't really get you very far without true talent.

People probably shouldn't tell the story of Joe Grim to young children, until after their dreams have already been crushed.

jabbo · 02-05-2004, 11:25 PM

In tribute to your selfless and Herculean efforts, Cube, I will not bring up Max Roach in reference to your avatar!

I was surprised Jim chose Grim as a fighter difficult to rate...his career is probably the easiest to duplicate in simulation -- he always loses and he never gets knocked out.

Jim also said that Floyd Patterson is one of the most difficult fighters to rate, which makes sense, as he was tremendously skilled, yet quite vulnerable.

You home-raters out there...who have you found most challenging?

Bob

Lee · 02-06-2004, 01:40 AM

Here is what I did with Grim, and I am very pleased with the results.

1-Lowered his CF to 9 against both Boxers and Sluggers.
2-Lowered both his Punches landed and counter punches to 28.
3-Lowered his intellect to 1 (Which Jim indicated s/h been the correct rating)
4-Lowered his fight outside strategy to 1 (He was a plodder)
5-Raised his Cover-up to 3 (to increase his chances of going into a shell when hurt)

In the new group I started his results are pretty accurate. He has a record of 0-25-0. He has been knocked down 22 times but only knocked out once, by Frank Moran, which is plausible. He has also suffered a TKO 8 loss to Sam McVey due to swelling and a TKO 10 loss to George Godfrey due to cumulative punishment. (30 points scored) The rest of his 22 losses are all by decision, and he has gone the distance with the likes of Sam Langford, Jack Johnson, Harry Wills, Jake Kilrain, Tommy Burns, Joe Choynski (twice) and Gunboat Smith (twice) again despite being dropped 22 times to date.

01-12-2004, 06:59 PM	#1
cubedrum All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 952	Joe Grim I just wanted to mention this one major change in the ratings in my new database. Joe Grim should NOT have a CF of 10. This guy fought over 60 fights and didn't win even 1! To have him rated a 5 overall is an insult even to Butterbean. New CFs are 5 and overall a 2. Just felt I had to mention this because I was so outraged. About half way through the database verify and correct procedures. It's coming soon. Cube __________________ "If you build a man a fire, he stays warm for one day. If you set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life" - Edgar Frog

01-14-2004, 12:47 PM	#5
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	I looked at Grim and he was stopped around 6 times. However could a negative rating be input as a TKO rating. I remember in TF2001 some of the women boxers had negative HP's. Maybe a negative rating in TKO or maybe the 0 rating for tko could allow a lot more punishment to be absorbed. The same for KO rating of 0. Maybe someone with a 0 KO rating shaouldn't be able to be knocked down. Gus __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

01-14-2004, 03:45 PM	#6
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,989	One of Joe Grim's nicknames was "The India Rubber Man"* because when he got knocked down he just bounced back up. He would routinely get decked a dozen times by heavy hitters and come back for more. Sailor Burke knocked him out late in his career (if you can call what Grim did a career), but I don't have the details of that one, so maybe it was really a panicky ref who stepped in to stop Grim from taking further punishment. These two met again a month later, and Grim went the distance. Cap Cap * As opposed to Johnny Risko "The Cleveland Rubber Man" __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

01-15-2004, 01:58 AM	#7
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	I enjoyed Jim's article (part 2 of rating fighters) specifically in response to this thread...but in my universe Joe Grim would probably get a fair amount of TKO's against him....for the simple reason that my universe is based more on todays world of boxing. My IPBA uses random fighters from all generations mixed together in a modern boxing world...fighters are not being replayed in their own time. So...I think its quite fair to figure that if Mr. Grim fought in todays boxing world...he would never go the distance in quite a few bouts because he wouldn't be allowed to. In todays' era of trying to protect the health of the athlete (or at least attempting to) he would never be allowed to absorb the punishment that he must have taking over all those bouts. Also with the 3 knockdown rule being used in many bouts...its obvious what effect this would have on his bouts. When I'm creating, rating and playtesting fighters (especially old-timers) I take this into account. Sometimes I may see more KO's/TKO's than a fighter actually had in real life but it's because of the referees decision, 3 knockdown rule, etc. that is prevalant in todays fight game. Just thought I'd throw these thoughts in. Keep those Universes rolling! __________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=250426

01-15-2004, 06:56 AM	#8
cubedrum All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 952	Just found the nicest Joe Grim picture by far on the net. Still slaving away on the database. Every day 30-50 photos added. This will be the big one. 2100 photos and counting. Why oh why wasn't I a beta tester. This would have been done pre-release. At least 40 hours so far that I would have happily donated to Jim and company. Maybe next time Cube Attached Images __________________ "If you build a man a fire, he stays warm for one day. If you set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life" - Edgar Frog

01-12-2004, 07:44 PM	#2
JeffR FHM Producer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kelowna, BC Posts: 17,426	Wow, you're right, Cube. How on earth does a guy whose only redeeming feature was the ability to take vast amounts of punishment rate a 10/10 CF and 5 intellect? You might want to bump his cut and knockout ratings down a bit, too - have a look at this article: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/joegrim.html

01-13-2004, 08:03 AM	#3
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	Hang on, hang on! Outraged is a strong word. You've never seen me say anything about ratings other than do what you think is best if you don't like ours. However, I feel it necessary to address the above. Did you fight Grim against any of his real life opponents? Do you have a complete understanding of the way the ratings relate? Joe Grim went 20 rounds on several occasions. He lost fights at 6, 8 and 10 rounds. But he never got stopped. The only way to come close to giving him a chance to perform as he did in real life is to keep him in the fight - not on the scorecards but in the fight! His other stats are below average - he's not going to beat anyone but the absolute slugs in his division, baring a statistical anomaly that occurs from time to time. But you lower that 10/10 control factor and I guarantee that he won't finish a fight. He'll be TKO'd and quickly. His 4 KD guarantees that he'll go down and his other stats pretty much assure that he won't win. But only the combination of his CF/KD2/KO (which probably needs to be a 0), END/TKO keeps him in fights well enough to go the distance. Listen, we certainly make mistakes or overrate and underrate fighters or differ in opinions of fighters and you SHOULD tinker with them. Just be sure that you look at the whole fighter before you start making blanket changes. His INT should be a 1, not a 5. It was a typo. And Joe Grim would have knocked out Butterbean.

01-15-2004, 08:36 AM	#9
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Cube---you was robbed! __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

01-15-2004, 09:16 PM	#10
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,989	Cube, you are one gent who should have got this game gratis. For all the selfless work and time you've put into your picture archive without thought of recompense, I hereby award you the first official Cap's "Here's to Yah!" award. Remember to hand the plaque back in on your way out. Those things don't grow on trees you know. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

01-15-2004, 09:23 PM	#11
cubedrum All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 952	Wow, thanks Cap. Since I can't keep the placque I'll just take a photo of it and size it to 140x140. Cube __________________ "If you build a man a fire, he stays warm for one day. If you set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life" - Edgar Frog

01-29-2004, 02:56 PM	#12
RANGER11JP All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,364	Joe Grim Hey Guys, I looked at Joe Grim on BoxRec.Com, and they show him winning a bout by a KO in 3 around his third fight. Is this correct or am I not reading something correctly? JP

01-29-2004, 03:37 PM	#13
Roydboy Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 64	Cube, your photos are a great addition to the game. While I, for one, am eagerly awaiting more and can only imagine the effort involved. Thank you. If you reply to this I would like to know why you're on the discussion board instead of adding more photos! Just kidding, and thanks again. Roy

01-29-2004, 06:32 PM	#14
crusadecat All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 827	After reading the article I have to concur not to take cf out of context. I think that I would defer to the Trunzo's on this one. You make a good point though Cube, he would be tko'd all the time in the modern version of the sport.

02-05-2004, 08:26 PM	#15
Dandriel Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Yeah..I'll agree with Cube as well... he'd be stopped in a lot of his fights. He'd probably end up getting a job in the industry after his career in this day and age, if nothing else out of pity. In some sick way, I have to admire his drive to fight, even once it was pointedly obvious to even him that he was never going to win a fight. Really, the whole story's kind of a downer...one of those pointed illustrations that even though heart counts for a lot in this world, it won't really get you very far without true talent. People probably shouldn't tell the story of Joe Grim to young children, until after their dreams have already been crushed.

02-05-2004, 11:25 PM	#16
jabbo Minors (Single A) Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 73	In tribute to your selfless and Herculean efforts, Cube, I will not bring up Max Roach in reference to your avatar! I was surprised Jim chose Grim as a fighter difficult to rate...his career is probably the easiest to duplicate in simulation -- he always loses and he never gets knocked out. Jim also said that Floyd Patterson is one of the most difficult fighters to rate, which makes sense, as he was tremendously skilled, yet quite vulnerable. You home-raters out there...who have you found most challenging? Bob

02-06-2004, 01:40 AM	#17
Lee Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Scorched Desert Posts: 4,652	Grims Ratings Here is what I did with Grim, and I am very pleased with the results. 1-Lowered his CF to 9 against both Boxers and Sluggers. 2-Lowered both his Punches landed and counter punches to 28. 3-Lowered his intellect to 1 (Which Jim indicated s/h been the correct rating) 4-Lowered his fight outside strategy to 1 (He was a plodder) 5-Raised his Cover-up to 3 (to increase his chances of going into a shell when hurt) In the new group I started his results are pretty accurate. He has a record of 0-25-0. He has been knocked down 22 times but only knocked out once, by Frank Moran, which is plausible. He has also suffered a TKO 8 loss to Sam McVey due to swelling and a TKO 10 loss to George Godfrey due to cumulative punishment. (30 points scored) The rest of his 22 losses are all by decision, and he has gone the distance with the likes of Sam Langford, Jack Johnson, Harry Wills, Jake Kilrain, Tommy Burns, Joe Choynski (twice) and Gunboat Smith (twice) again despite being dropped 22 times to date.