When will company's learn

skkrrt · 10-19-2003, 08:58 PM

You will never have enough features to please everyone. NEVER. Somebody will always want more. OOTP5 is one of the best games i've ever played but there is *1* huge weakness, just like in nearly every game.

THE AI.

I just read alot of the Possible OOTP6 features thread, and having that stuff would be great. but if the AI is the same it will still have the same huge flaw. OOTP 5's AI is bad, it isn't terrible but its bad. Everyone knows. But its never addressed, instead we get a ton of new features...but the games biggest short comming always comes back to haunt us.

This game is one of the best supported games i've ever played. Markus does a ton of work for it and im very thankful. But like every company he tries to do alot of things that are great to have, and trust me they would be cool, but they only make the game marginally better...because the AI is so weak.

EX: New ratings system, with a scale of 1-10 for stealing, running, speed, and only one pitcher duration rating. Also, the pitching and batting ratings will be remodeled. I am not 100% sure yet how this will look like in the end.

Ok, this would be great. But after we learn the system (in oh...2 weeks) the one big shortcomming is going to come back. The AI is still going to get completely raped in trades if we want...there gonna sign marginal FA too way too much money..there gonna have there lineups all screwy. So we'll have a great way to know whos the best players...know who can do what...so now we can see the AI botch it worse..

Another EX:
More realistic draft, with signing bonuses, players refusing to sign etc.

Again, another great feature too add. It would be awesome for online leagues and would improve the game again. But whats gonna happen, were gonna figure out a way to ripoff the AI, while the AI teams figure out a way to let there first round draft pick walk away..every year.

Alot of the proposed changes..ok all of them...I would love. They would help online play alot. But we still would get bored with our dynasty's because the AI cant manage to get that one last piece for there playoff run. They fail to sign that stud ace they were missing...and they pay 10,000,000/yr just to outbid the human on a player of Craig Counsel's caliber.

So I guess what im saying is:

Just fix the AI. If all you did was completely re-write the AI so it can make the basic moves to compete. I know it will never be as smart as most of us and I know we will always be able to out smart it. But I want the AI, knowing its in the playoff hunt, to get that final piece to the puzzle it needs and challenge me. I dont want the last place team trying to get the stud instead.

Ideally you would re-write the engine and the AI. Nothing else needs to be touched this year and you would have the perfect game. Yea a new ratings system would be cool..sure playing h2h online would be awesome. But if the AI still cant handle the simpelest tasks you would jsut get hte same old complaints about it.

Henry · 10-19-2003, 09:28 PM

The AI is under constant scrutiny and has been improved in various areas each year. In fact, the trading AI went through a major overhaul in version 5.

Artificial Intelligence, as you mentioned, will never be as perfect as a human - but I think most here who have watched this game develop over the years would agree the AI constantly gets better.

Since the game engine will be totally rewritten in V6, I would expect we will see some significant improvements in the game logic next year ... stay tuned

skkrrt · 10-19-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
The AI is under constant scrutiny and has been improved in various areas each year. In fact, the trading AI went through a major overhaul in version 5.

Artificial Intelligence, as you mentioned, will never be as perfect as a human - but I think most here who have watched this game develop over the years would agree the AI constantly gets better.

Since the game engine will be totally rewritten in V6, I would expect we will see some significant improvements in the game logic next year ... stay tuned

Yes, I do know it has been improved..and I think I mentioned that (maybe not though.. I type fast)

The point was the AI gets little tweeks here and there, but every new features just confuses it more and more. So just do everyhing you can (even if you do nothing else) and get AI as perfet as you can. Then when you implement new features it will be easier to get the AI to work with them.

The game is very good as it is, there aren't really a whole lot of change needed...but the AI is the biggest and it doens't get fixed as much as it should... IMO atleast.

BaseballMan · 10-19-2003, 09:38 PM

I see your point but the AI will never be perfect either
People are constantly asking for a new feature. So its impossible for Markus to put every new feature in each year. And if he improved AI only it might not please people who expect something different in next years version.

I dont think Markus is ignoring the AI but we must remember he doesnt have 30 or more people working with him like at EA Sports. Its taken time and a few versions to just get the finances
to where they are now.
Also if you were here around OOTP2 you would know that a lot of these new features are well worth it.
Im sure Markus looks to improve the Ai the best he can but the AI will never be perfect either.
Besides if it was it would defeat its purpose. Because isnt the point of AI is too make the cpu more human like it its decisions.
So shouldnt the AI make some bad choices as well as good.
I dont mean intentionally walking a player with bases loaded in the boyttom of the 9th in the 7th game of the World Series with score tied. But rather the AI making bad bad trades or good trades, taking a chance on somebody during the season cause the AI has the money to spend like the Yankees.
Plus anything Markus does put in he has to make sure it doesnt screw up anything else. Im sure it must be a lot of work for him every year just figuring on what can work at this time.

skkrrt · 10-19-2003, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BaseballMan
I see your point but the AI will never be perfect either
People are constantly asking for a new feature. So its impossible for Markus to put every new feature in each year. And if he improved AI only it might not please people who expect something different in next years version.

I dont think Markus is ignoring the AI but we must remember he doesnt have 30 or more people working with him like at EA Sports. Its taken time and a few versions to just get the finances
to where they are now.
Also if you were here around OOTP2 you would know that a lot of these new features are well worth it.
Im sure Markus looks to improve the Ai the best he can but the AI will never be perfect either.
Besides if it was it would defeat its purpose. Because isnt the point of AI is too make the cpu more human like it its decisions.
So shouldnt the AI make some bad choices as well as good.
I dont mean intentionally walking a player with bases loaded in the boyttom of the 9th in the 7th game of the World Series with score tied. But rather the AI making bad bad trades or good trades, taking a chance on somebody during the season cause the AI has the money to spend like the Yankees.
Plus anything Markus does put in he has to make sure it doesnt screw up anything else. Im sure it must be a lot of work for him every year just figuring on what can work at this time.

i said the AI cant be perfect.

I mean things like: Screwy batting orders....cutting really good players after for soem reason they send them to the minors...terribly overspending on average playes just to beat the human.

I know real team do those things also, but not nearly as often as the AI. I want the AI to make a good draft pick...get the final piece to there team (OR ATLEAST TRY).

Basically I dont wanna win my solo league every year...because the AI team that is riding my arse all season and only needs a decent 3rd pitcher to get over the hump..but trades for some crap LF instead...

Kurtis R. · 10-19-2003, 10:38 PM

I'm sure if Markus could snap his fingers and have the perfect AI he would. Like Henry said... the game is a work in progress... and is getting better every version.

Kurtis

Skipaway · 10-19-2003, 10:47 PM

Sometimes I wonder what will people say if OOTP AI cheat in order to make the game more competitive. Just like all those great Sid Meier games.

Killebrew · 10-19-2003, 11:05 PM

At a certain point in the development of OOTP there will be area's of the AI that are completed but yet many will argue are not working the way they want them to. For example, for every person who thinks it's too easy to pull the wool over the AI's eye's in a trade there is another person who thinks the trading is too difficult. IMO the answer at that stage of the development of that area of the AI is user editable settings as we have seen many games, especially sports games, use in the past. For trades that would mean a trade difficulty slider and I think Markus will have to consider that at some point if he wants to please people as far as the long-disputed trade AI issue with OOTP. The patch tweaks in the past were useful I think in adding depth to the trade AI and reducing some logic holes, but at a certain point it comes down to different users wanting the same feature to act differently.

A different but related AI issue is the AI's general lack of competitiveness, and for this I think the game badly needs difficulty settings to choose when you begin a career. Even if this area did not have much depth and simply gave the AI clubs big long term TV deals that upped their budget, it would still be a welcome addition. I don't think it would be too difficult to add some depth too, like players generally liking the AI teams more for resigning and free agency.

Henry · 10-19-2003, 11:23 PM

So what's wrong with this addition in Version 5 ?

Killebrew · 10-20-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
So what's wrong with this addition in Version 5 ?

Heh - this is one of the reasons I have been so scarce around these parts the last 6 months. Since beta testing last winter I have not played OOTP5 in solo mode even once. Can I assume these trade settings work very well? I hope so, next on the list is difficulty settings!

Skipaway · 10-20-2003, 12:09 AM

Nothing wrong. People are just asking for more.

And as Killebrew said, in some strategy games there are difficulty settings that would give computer players significant edges like 20% more resources to make up the AI deficiency. It's definitely not realistic, but could be good for players would just like the challenge.

Henry · 10-20-2003, 07:03 AM

It sure seems that most of the original complaints about (1) the AI favoring vets over prospects and (2) being able to rip off the AI, went away with this addition.

Although a few folks have commented it's still too easy, I think most customers found it quiet challenging with the difficult set to either hard or very hard.

Markus has avoided any code that would, in effect, let the AI "cheat" to even up the score with a human player. I think it's really semantecs if you think about it though....

Since it's basically impossible to get computer code to think like a human because the amount of code and memory needed would be far greater than what's realistic - the human player will always have an advantage over coding.

Most games even things up by giving the AI options the human doesn't have... more information, etc.

Many folks don't like this approach. Others could overlook it if the challenge was present. It's a tough call....

draven085 · 10-20-2003, 08:31 AM

As Henry said I don't think the trade AI is much of an issue anymore. The 'slider' works great and allows the user to customize his/her gaming experience.

I think the AI in need of a fix is the in-game AI. The AI doesn't manage it's bullpen well, runs at inappropriate times, fails to use pinch hitters despite planning to remove the pitcher in the very next inning, and other things. I understand everyone has areas of the game that they prefer to be improved first, but it seems to me that a text based simulation has to simulate these types of moves properly. Just my 2 cents.

imation · 10-20-2003, 08:37 AM

Does changing the difficulty level make the AI better?

slic1149 · 10-20-2003, 08:46 AM

Bad AI is in the eye of the beholder. Screwy lineups for you may make perfect sense to me. Poor managerial decisions are part of the real world. If you go through game after game looking for questionable results I am sure you will find them. Any game that is taken as individual parts as opposed to an overall whole will come up wanting. This doesn't mean that the game shouldn't be improved, it should, but is constantly carping about something as subjective as AI really productive. I try to enjoy the game for what it is, a game. Seems to me that sometimes we try to pick apart the gaming experience instead of enjoying it. I want the game to get better but remember if ootp6 is perfect there will be no need for ootp7.

Not trying to be snippy but I am curious. When you folks who are just playing the game, not beta testing, just playing the game and looking for places where it doesn't meet your expectations is that fun? I have seen folks spend hours studying and testing and complaining about everything from trading AI, to lineup AI, and in game AI I kinda feel sorry for them. While you complain about the game mechanics I just play the game. Seems silly to pay to play a game and then spend all your time trying to prove the AI is off kilter. The game needs to get better, it will, not over night but in incremental yearly editions with consistent updates. The next time you start screaming about AI go play a game of ootp5 you know it really is a lot of fun.

Henry · 10-20-2003, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by imation
Does changing the difficulty level make the AI better?

Changing which difficulty factor ? If your talking about the Trading difficulty factor, it only affects trading. The Manager mode difficulty factor only affects manager mode, etc.

draven085 · 10-20-2003, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slic1149
Bad AI is in the eye of the beholder. Screwy lineups for you may make perfect sense to me. Poor managerial decisions are part of the real world. If you go through game after game looking for questionable results I am sure you will find them. Any game that is taken as individual parts as opposed to an overall whole will come up wanting. This doesn't mean that the game shouldn't be improved, it should, but is constantly carping about something as subjective as AI really productive. I try to enjoy the game for what it is, a game. Seems to me that sometimes we try to pick apart the gaming experience instead of enjoying it. I want the game to get better but remember if ootp6 is perfect there will be no need for ootp7.

Not trying to be snippy but I am curious. When you folks who are just playing the game, not beta testing, just playing the game and looking for places where it doesn't meet your expectations is that fun? I have seen folks spend hours studying and testing and complaining about everything from trading AI, to lineup AI, and in game AI I kinda feel sorry for them. While you complain about the game mechanics I just play the game. Seems silly to pay to play a game and then spend all your time trying to prove the AI is off kilter. The game needs to get better, it will, not over night but in incremental yearly editions with consistent updates. The next time you start screaming about AI go play a game of ootp5 you know it really is a lot of fun.

I think you are missing the point here. OOTP is a baseball game. People want it to be like baseball. The game's AI could be improved in some areas to make the game more accurately reflect real baseball. This forum exists to express these types of opinions and ideas.

I've never understood posts like yours that tell people to stop critiquing the game. These types of discussions help to improve the game.

slic1149 · 10-20-2003, 09:26 AM

Real baseball is Grady Little leaving in Pedro Martinez too long, trading Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio and batting Bobby Richardson leadoff. All questionable real life decisions any of which would send some of you folks into a real tizzy if they occured during the ootp5 experience. I want the game to get better and the the day it doesn't will be the day I quit buying it. However much of what you get on the board isn't honest critiquing it is instead the same old bitching about how someones particular ax to grind makes the gaming experience unpleasant. AI is in the eye of the beholder and if we accept anomalies as part of real baseball why can't we accept anomalies as part of a computer game.

Does anyone believe that a development team smart enough to create this game isn't smart enough to recognize it's shortcomings? Read the posts, it's just the same old complaints about the same stuff that all of us know could be improved. My guess is that Markus knows about these problems and is working to improve them even as we speak. If you find a new problem that hasn't been addressed a million times please point it out. But if all we do is make vague complaints about subjective AI decisions this isn't critiquing, it's whining. If you can play an individual game of ootp5 and say it doesn't provide a pretty honest representation of baseball then you and I aren't playing the same game.

draven085 · 10-20-2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slic1149
If you can play an individual game of ootp5 and say it doesn't provide a pretty honest representation of baseball then you and I aren't playing the same game.

Funny, I always thought you could steal with two strikes on the batter in real baseball. *note to self*

If you don't like what you read on these forums, don't read them. A lot of constructive ideas come out of these discussions and posting here and telling people to quit whining isn't adding much to the discussion.

THx,
DRaven

Klaatulou · 10-20-2003, 09:41 AM

Excellent statements Slic1149. I've read many posts on this board, but yours is one of the best. Still, for some folks, having something to complain about is what gets them up in the mornings. In their self-made wisdom, they sometimes show their ignorance. Thanks for your observations, and logical statements.

10-19-2003, 08:58 PM	#1
skkrrt Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 410	When will company's learn You will never have enough features to please everyone. NEVER. Somebody will always want more. OOTP5 is one of the best games i've ever played but there is 1 huge weakness, just like in nearly every game. THE AI. I just read alot of the Possible OOTP6 features thread, and having that stuff would be great. but if the AI is the same it will still have the same huge flaw. OOTP 5's AI is bad, it isn't terrible but its bad. Everyone knows. But its never addressed, instead we get a ton of new features...but the games biggest short comming always comes back to haunt us. This game is one of the best supported games i've ever played. Markus does a ton of work for it and im very thankful. But like every company he tries to do alot of things that are great to have, and trust me they would be cool, but they only make the game marginally better...because the AI is so weak. EX: New ratings system, with a scale of 1-10 for stealing, running, speed, and only one pitcher duration rating. Also, the pitching and batting ratings will be remodeled. I am not 100% sure yet how this will look like in the end. Ok, this would be great. But after we learn the system (in oh...2 weeks) the one big shortcomming is going to come back. The AI is still going to get completely raped in trades if we want...there gonna sign marginal FA too way too much money..there gonna have there lineups all screwy. So we'll have a great way to know whos the best players...know who can do what...so now we can see the AI botch it worse.. Another EX: More realistic draft, with signing bonuses, players refusing to sign etc. Again, another great feature too add. It would be awesome for online leagues and would improve the game again. But whats gonna happen, were gonna figure out a way to ripoff the AI, while the AI teams figure out a way to let there first round draft pick walk away..every year. Alot of the proposed changes..ok all of them...I would love. They would help online play alot. But we still would get bored with our dynasty's because the AI cant manage to get that one last piece for there playoff run. They fail to sign that stud ace they were missing...and they pay 10,000,000/yr just to outbid the human on a player of Craig Counsel's caliber. So I guess what im saying is: Just fix the AI. If all you did was completely re-write the AI so it can make the basic moves to compete. I know it will never be as smart as most of us and I know we will always be able to out smart it. But I want the AI, knowing its in the playoff hunt, to get that final piece to the puzzle it needs and challenge me. I dont want the last place team trying to get the stud instead. Ideally you would re-write the engine and the AI. Nothing else needs to be touched this year and you would have the perfect game. Yea a new ratings system would be cool..sure playing h2h online would be awesome. But if the AI still cant handle the simpelest tasks you would jsut get hte same old complaints about it.

10-19-2003, 10:38 PM	#6
Kurtis R. All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,105	I'm sure if Markus could snap his fingers and have the perfect AI he would. Like Henry said... the game is a work in progress... and is getting better every version. Kurtis __________________ CUBL Commissioner

10-19-2003, 10:47 PM	#7
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Sometimes I wonder what will people say if OOTP AI cheat in order to make the game more competitive. Just like all those great Sid Meier games. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

10-19-2003, 11:23 PM	#9
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	So what's wrong with this addition in Version 5 ? Attached Images

10-20-2003, 12:09 AM	#11
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Nothing wrong. People are just asking for more. And as Killebrew said, in some strategy games there are difficulty settings that would give computer players significant edges like 20% more resources to make up the AI deficiency. It's definitely not realistic, but could be good for players would just like the challenge. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

10-19-2003, 09:28 PM	#2
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	The AI is under constant scrutiny and has been improved in various areas each year. In fact, the trading AI went through a major overhaul in version 5. Artificial Intelligence, as you mentioned, will never be as perfect as a human - but I think most here who have watched this game develop over the years would agree the AI constantly gets better. Since the game engine will be totally rewritten in V6, I would expect we will see some significant improvements in the game logic next year ... stay tuned

10-19-2003, 09:38 PM	#4
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,661	I see your point but the AI will never be perfect either People are constantly asking for a new feature. So its impossible for Markus to put every new feature in each year. And if he improved AI only it might not please people who expect something different in next years version. I dont think Markus is ignoring the AI but we must remember he doesnt have 30 or more people working with him like at EA Sports. Its taken time and a few versions to just get the finances to where they are now. Also if you were here around OOTP2 you would know that a lot of these new features are well worth it. Im sure Markus looks to improve the Ai the best he can but the AI will never be perfect either. Besides if it was it would defeat its purpose. Because isnt the point of AI is too make the cpu more human like it its decisions. So shouldnt the AI make some bad choices as well as good. I dont mean intentionally walking a player with bases loaded in the boyttom of the 9th in the 7th game of the World Series with score tied. But rather the AI making bad bad trades or good trades, taking a chance on somebody during the season cause the AI has the money to spend like the Yankees. Plus anything Markus does put in he has to make sure it doesnt screw up anything else. Im sure it must be a lot of work for him every year just figuring on what can work at this time.

10-19-2003, 11:05 PM	#8
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	At a certain point in the development of OOTP there will be area's of the AI that are completed but yet many will argue are not working the way they want them to. For example, for every person who thinks it's too easy to pull the wool over the AI's eye's in a trade there is another person who thinks the trading is too difficult. IMO the answer at that stage of the development of that area of the AI is user editable settings as we have seen many games, especially sports games, use in the past. For trades that would mean a trade difficulty slider and I think Markus will have to consider that at some point if he wants to please people as far as the long-disputed trade AI issue with OOTP. The patch tweaks in the past were useful I think in adding depth to the trade AI and reducing some logic holes, but at a certain point it comes down to different users wanting the same feature to act differently. A different but related AI issue is the AI's general lack of competitiveness, and for this I think the game badly needs difficulty settings to choose when you begin a career. Even if this area did not have much depth and simply gave the AI clubs big long term TV deals that upped their budget, it would still be a welcome addition. I don't think it would be too difficult to add some depth too, like players generally liking the AI teams more for resigning and free agency.

10-20-2003, 07:03 AM	#12
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	It sure seems that most of the original complaints about (1) the AI favoring vets over prospects and (2) being able to rip off the AI, went away with this addition. Although a few folks have commented it's still too easy, I think most customers found it quiet challenging with the difficult set to either hard or very hard. Markus has avoided any code that would, in effect, let the AI "cheat" to even up the score with a human player. I think it's really semantecs if you think about it though.... Since it's basically impossible to get computer code to think like a human because the amount of code and memory needed would be far greater than what's realistic - the human player will always have an advantage over coding. Most games even things up by giving the AI options the human doesn't have... more information, etc. Many folks don't like this approach. Others could overlook it if the challenge was present. It's a tough call....

10-20-2003, 08:31 AM	#13
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	As Henry said I don't think the trade AI is much of an issue anymore. The 'slider' works great and allows the user to customize his/her gaming experience. I think the AI in need of a fix is the in-game AI. The AI doesn't manage it's bullpen well, runs at inappropriate times, fails to use pinch hitters despite planning to remove the pitcher in the very next inning, and other things. I understand everyone has areas of the game that they prefer to be improved first, but it seems to me that a text based simulation has to simulate these types of moves properly. Just my 2 cents.

10-20-2003, 08:37 AM	#14
imation Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 307	Does changing the difficulty level make the AI better? __________________

10-20-2003, 08:46 AM	#15
slic1149 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 348	Bad AI is in the eye of the beholder. Screwy lineups for you may make perfect sense to me. Poor managerial decisions are part of the real world. If you go through game after game looking for questionable results I am sure you will find them. Any game that is taken as individual parts as opposed to an overall whole will come up wanting. This doesn't mean that the game shouldn't be improved, it should, but is constantly carping about something as subjective as AI really productive. I try to enjoy the game for what it is, a game. Seems to me that sometimes we try to pick apart the gaming experience instead of enjoying it. I want the game to get better but remember if ootp6 is perfect there will be no need for ootp7. Not trying to be snippy but I am curious. When you folks who are just playing the game, not beta testing, just playing the game and looking for places where it doesn't meet your expectations is that fun? I have seen folks spend hours studying and testing and complaining about everything from trading AI, to lineup AI, and in game AI I kinda feel sorry for them. While you complain about the game mechanics I just play the game. Seems silly to pay to play a game and then spend all your time trying to prove the AI is off kilter. The game needs to get better, it will, not over night but in incremental yearly editions with consistent updates. The next time you start screaming about AI go play a game of ootp5 you know it really is a lot of fun. __________________ To laugh often and love much, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self, this is to have succeeded. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

10-20-2003, 09:26 AM	#18
slic1149 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 348	Real baseball is Grady Little leaving in Pedro Martinez too long, trading Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio and batting Bobby Richardson leadoff. All questionable real life decisions any of which would send some of you folks into a real tizzy if they occured during the ootp5 experience. I want the game to get better and the the day it doesn't will be the day I quit buying it. However much of what you get on the board isn't honest critiquing it is instead the same old bitching about how someones particular ax to grind makes the gaming experience unpleasant. AI is in the eye of the beholder and if we accept anomalies as part of real baseball why can't we accept anomalies as part of a computer game. Does anyone believe that a development team smart enough to create this game isn't smart enough to recognize it's shortcomings? Read the posts, it's just the same old complaints about the same stuff that all of us know could be improved. My guess is that Markus knows about these problems and is working to improve them even as we speak. If you find a new problem that hasn't been addressed a million times please point it out. But if all we do is make vague complaints about subjective AI decisions this isn't critiquing, it's whining. If you can play an individual game of ootp5 and say it doesn't provide a pretty honest representation of baseball then you and I aren't playing the same game. __________________ To laugh often and love much, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self, this is to have succeeded. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

10-20-2003, 09:41 AM	#20
Klaatulou Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hays, KS Posts: 21	Excellent statements Slic1149. I've read many posts on this board, but yours is one of the best. Still, for some folks, having something to complain about is what gets them up in the mornings. In their self-made wisdom, they sometimes show their ignorance. Thanks for your observations, and logical statements.