The Draft

brimick78 · 08-03-2003, 01:36 AM

Am I the only person who thinks the draft in this game is way out whack?

Highschool players are drafted high yes that's realistic. But way to many of them succeed.

You cannot find quality players late in the draft. None of them panout.

Also for those of us who want to be the next Billy Beane you don't get compensation picks. He's had I think over 10 first rounds picks the last two years and will get a few more this year with Guillen and Tejeda being free agents.

I'd also like to see stats instead of ratings for rookies and have to make sense of them. I'm all for people who want too see ratings gettting that but it's not me.

I think these aspects of the game really need to be improved. The last thing makes it impossible for a low budget team to succeed. I know that if you field quality teams you can easily spend about $65 million but it's more fun spending $40.

Another thing is I wish stats meant more in general in this game you can pretty much ignore stats and just look at ratings for non-major leaugers.

I hope I don't get flamed for this. This board tends to go on the defensive anytime sometihng constructive is suggested. I just feel the draft is the most important and weakest feature in the game.

Steve Kuffrey · 08-03-2003, 01:40 AM

Just curious how many seasons you are basing this on? I'd also check the boards a bit concerning some of the other assumptions....the minor league games are simmed by THE SAME ENGINE that the major league games are and though shouldn't be used exclusively should be used in conjunction with all other evaluation criteria. In other words, they do mean something. Also, you may want to check the minor league stats vs. the major league stats of players and you will find a nice variety there as well. Guys doing well in the minors and crap out in the majors, average players in the minors doing well in the majors, etc......

Springtime_for_Hunter · 08-03-2003, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brimick78
You cannot find quality players late in the draft. None of them panout.

Wait a while. It does happen, and isn't even uncommon, really.

I really don't like it when people who come in here and post "Make the game so that if I'm like (my concept of) Billy Beane I win all the time." Billy doesn't win all the time -- he (and Sandy Alderson before him) went through a bunch of really crappy seasons to get where he is now, and a lot of his success now is based on two not-really-sabermetric things: great luck/coaching with his starting pitchers, and very good trading skill. Both of which will win for you in OOTP.

I would like to see comp picks, though.

brimick78 · 08-03-2003, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Springtime_for_Hunter
Wait a while. It does happen, and isn't even uncommon, really.

I really don't like it when people who come in here and post "Make the game so that if I'm like (my concept of) Billy Beane I win all the time." Billy doesn't win all the time -- he (and Sandy Alderson before him) went through a bunch of really crappy seasons to get where he is now, and a lot of his success now is based on two not-really-sabermetric things: great luck/coaching with his starting pitchers, and very good trading skill. Both of which will win for you in OOTP.

I would like to see comp picks, though.

I get that. My problem is that the game doesn't simulate the aspects of the Billy Beane stragedy that made him succesful. It's not that it doesn't do them accurately but it doesn't try to do them. Another quip is that Markus hasn't tried to make progess in these areas.

I would like to know where kids in the draft are projected to go. And where my scouts think they should go.

The draft in the game feels to anti baseball to me. Everyone signs. No one gets big contracts. It just doesn't feel right.

Edit to say I probably wasn't clear on the first paragraph. I think that teams should draft more on velocity (for pitchers) , power, and batting type. I think a problem in the game is that the computer drafts to much like Beane. Ignoring body type and speed. This is where the game really needs GM personalities.

dougaiton · 08-03-2003, 07:00 AM

To paraphrase, the game doesn't recognise body types, only ability. As body-type and speed have no affect on the game engine, then it would be wrong to have a comp GM draft otherwise.

I would like to note that in the last 10 years, all the world championship teams have been scouted and drafted by GMs other than Beane. Two wildcards and one division does not make them the Braves, Yankees, Cardinals etc. Moreover, the only two great offensive players the As have drafted (Tejada and Chavez) are two that Beane now would not sign! Both straight out of HS!

And don't forget the As only signed Zito because they couldn't afford Ben Sheets.

joncarlos · 08-03-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dougaiton
To paraphrase, the game doesn't recognise body types, only ability. As body-type and speed have no affect on the game engine, then it would be wrong to have a comp GM draft otherwise.

Velocity does have an impact, though. And it is a rating everyone can see. Why don't we have a few computer teams take the '10' velocity guys in the first few picks even if their talent was a little bit less?

Personally I think 'GM personalities' would add a lot to the game... you could have favor power, favor OBP, favor rookies, favor pitching, etc etc.

Steve Kuffrey · 08-03-2003, 10:24 AM

I'm pretty sure that GM personalities is something we'll see in the future. However, I also think that "adding it/them in a patch" would not be wise as they would need to be tested to be certain that "adding one part doesn't screw up another". Patience.

sebastian0622 · 08-03-2003, 10:46 AM

Great players do sometimes come out of the late rounds. When I'm looking at players for whatever reason, browsing around the league, I look at their histories. I have seen many 7th round and later picks in starting lineups, and a few that are stars. One of the top prospects in my league was a 9th round pick.

I do agree that the draft does not have a baseball feel. You basically line up ratings and pick the best set of numbers. I would like to see it be more vague. Like limit the amount of information that can be seen on a player, similar to what FOF: The College Years football sim does in recruiting. Maybe it would tell you the player's greatest talent and his biggest weakness as seen by your scout, would show HS stats, and have the english language write-up from the scout. Or something...but the current system is lacking.

joncarlos · 08-03-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
I'm pretty sure that GM personalities is something we'll see in the future. However, I also think that "adding it/them in a patch" would not be wise as they would need to be tested to be certain that "adding one part doesn't screw up another". Patience.

Hey, OOTP8 is fine with me, as long as we get them eventually, I'd be ecstatic. Thanks Steve!

SSG Troyer · 08-03-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian0622
...the english language write-up from the scout...

But one can deduce the ratings/potential from the current English-language writeup as it is.

But yes, all I do is sort by blue-stars, and draft the longest string I can find for the position I want.

brimick78 · 08-03-2003, 04:15 PM

I think most people missed the point of my post.
My point wasn't I wish the I could be like Beane and win all the time. I know that's complete BS.

I just think the draft is the more important part of the game and it frankly sucks in OOTP.

In real life sometimes feel a guy is a 12th rounder while others think of him as 1st rounder. You just don't get this here.

I'd be happy to have comp. picks and a more interactive feel to the draft.

I thought it was kind of funny that someone said body type has no effect on the game engine. It just kinda proved me my point.

Steve Kuffrey · 08-03-2003, 05:33 PM

The draft isn't a much a part of the game as it maybe should be but "the draft" in MLB isn't as big in other sports either and much less "I think" is known about it. The other major sports have their drafts live and made a big deal of on ESPN so they are more easily structured and put toether maybe for games of those sports. A needed enhancement for sure.

Dwolfson20 · 08-03-2003, 05:44 PM

I'd just like to say that compensation picks would be really awesome.

Alan T · 08-03-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
I'd just like to say that compensation picks would be really awesome.

What he said

twins15 · 08-03-2003, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
I'd just like to say that compensation picks would be really awesome.

I would second that. I was going to suggest that in the wish list forum, but I forgot to. Also a Rule 5 Draft would be great.

brimick78 · 08-03-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
The draft isn't a much a part of the game as it maybe should be but "the draft" in MLB isn't as big in other sports either and much less "I think" is known about it. The other major sports have their drafts live and made a big deal of on ESPN so they are more easily structured and put toether maybe for games of those sports. A needed enhancement for sure.

While what you said is true it's not an excuse for Markus's lack of commitment to making the in-game draft better.
The talent cycles in this game are all off. To many first rounders succeeding, very few sleepers. As much fun as the game is there's alot of weak spots.
Baseball is the toughest game to simulate. Because of the way players are evaluated.
OOTP is a great game but it just doesn't feel like baseball.

Steve Kuffrey · 08-03-2003, 07:52 PM

I'm not using ANYTHING as an excuse, but merely stating facts of how things are IRL.

Also, I'm curious how many years/seasons of play you are basing this on?

Henry · 08-03-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brimick78
While what you said is true it's not an excuse for Markus's lack of commitment to making the in-game draft better.
The talent cycles in this game are all off. To many first rounders succeeding, very few sleepers. As much fun as the game is there's alot of weak spots.
Baseball is the toughest game to simulate. Because of the way players are evaluated.
OOTP is a great game but it just doesn't feel like baseball.

Easy fella

Five years and five versions sure as heck doesn't represent "lack of commitment"

Quote:

I hope I don't get flamed for this. This board tends to go on the defensive anytime sometihng constructive is suggested. I just feel the draft is the most important and weakest feature in the game.

And what exactly are we supposed to do when you come out with both barrels blazing ?

f you want to discuss areas the game can be improved, we're here to do that. If your only interested in "flaming us" then expect the same thing in return.

Now - can we start over ?

TC Dale · 08-03-2003, 08:09 PM

I agree. If you want to have a discussion, the way you started is not the best way to go. I mean come on........tact goes a long way here....

Whew...

Falcon52 · 08-03-2003, 08:15 PM

I think it's all a matter of luck. For instance, in my league, which is about 50 years running now, I have NEVER had one of my prospects drafted after round 3 (I do a 5 round draft) succeed as a quality player. All my "stars" were guys I drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, with the occassional 3rd rounder being a utility guy or a 5th starter or a 7th reliever.

However, I've seen other clubs do it. In fact, one of the guys right now in the league with great ratings and has a scouting report of "comes around once or twice in a generation" is a guy that was drafted in the 5th round (final round).

Which leads me to say that I've given up on hiring LEGENDARY scouts, since I've had them pretty much from the beginning, and all they find me are the most obvious players, not the diamonds in the rough

08-03-2003, 01:36 AM	#1
brimick78 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: na Posts: 44	The Draft Am I the only person who thinks the draft in this game is way out whack? Highschool players are drafted high yes that's realistic. But way to many of them succeed. You cannot find quality players late in the draft. None of them panout. Also for those of us who want to be the next Billy Beane you don't get compensation picks. He's had I think over 10 first rounds picks the last two years and will get a few more this year with Guillen and Tejeda being free agents. I'd also like to see stats instead of ratings for rookies and have to make sense of them. I'm all for people who want too see ratings gettting that but it's not me. I think these aspects of the game really need to be improved. The last thing makes it impossible for a low budget team to succeed. I know that if you field quality teams you can easily spend about $65 million but it's more fun spending $40. Another thing is I wish stats meant more in general in this game you can pretty much ignore stats and just look at ratings for non-major leaugers. I hope I don't get flamed for this. This board tends to go on the defensive anytime sometihng constructive is suggested. I just feel the draft is the most important and weakest feature in the game.

08-03-2003, 01:40 AM	#2
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	Just curious how many seasons you are basing this on? I'd also check the boards a bit concerning some of the other assumptions....the minor league games are simmed by THE SAME ENGINE that the major league games are and though shouldn't be used exclusively should be used in conjunction with all other evaluation criteria. In other words, they do mean something. Also, you may want to check the minor league stats vs. the major league stats of players and you will find a nice variety there as well. Guys doing well in the minors and crap out in the majors, average players in the minors doing well in the majors, etc...... __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

08-03-2003, 07:00 AM	#5
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	To paraphrase, the game doesn't recognise body types, only ability. As body-type and speed have no affect on the game engine, then it would be wrong to have a comp GM draft otherwise. I would like to note that in the last 10 years, all the world championship teams have been scouted and drafted by GMs other than Beane. Two wildcards and one division does not make them the Braves, Yankees, Cardinals etc. Moreover, the only two great offensive players the As have drafted (Tejada and Chavez) are two that Beane now would not sign! Both straight out of HS! And don't forget the As only signed Zito because they couldn't afford Ben Sheets. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

08-03-2003, 10:24 AM	#7
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	I'm pretty sure that GM personalities is something we'll see in the future. However, I also think that "adding it/them in a patch" would not be wise as they would need to be tested to be certain that "adding one part doesn't screw up another". Patience. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

08-03-2003, 05:33 PM	#12
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	The draft isn't a much a part of the game as it maybe should be but "the draft" in MLB isn't as big in other sports either and much less "I think" is known about it. The other major sports have their drafts live and made a big deal of on ESPN so they are more easily structured and put toether maybe for games of those sports. A needed enhancement for sure. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

08-03-2003, 10:46 AM	#8
sebastian0622 Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,465	Great players do sometimes come out of the late rounds. When I'm looking at players for whatever reason, browsing around the league, I look at their histories. I have seen many 7th round and later picks in starting lineups, and a few that are stars. One of the top prospects in my league was a 9th round pick. I do agree that the draft does not have a baseball feel. You basically line up ratings and pick the best set of numbers. I would like to see it be more vague. Like limit the amount of information that can be seen on a player, similar to what FOF: The College Years football sim does in recruiting. Maybe it would tell you the player's greatest talent and his biggest weakness as seen by your scout, would show HS stats, and have the english language write-up from the scout. Or something...but the current system is lacking.

08-03-2003, 04:15 PM	#11
brimick78 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: na Posts: 44	I think most people missed the point of my post. My point wasn't I wish the I could be like Beane and win all the time. I know that's complete BS. I just think the draft is the more important part of the game and it frankly sucks in OOTP. In real life sometimes feel a guy is a 12th rounder while others think of him as 1st rounder. You just don't get this here. I'd be happy to have comp. picks and a more interactive feel to the draft. I thought it was kind of funny that someone said body type has no effect on the game engine. It just kinda proved me my point.

08-03-2003, 05:44 PM	#13
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	I'd just like to say that compensation picks would be really awesome. __________________

08-03-2003, 07:52 PM	#17
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	I'm not using ANYTHING as an excuse, but merely stating facts of how things are IRL. Also, I'm curious how many years/seasons of play you are basing this on? __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

08-03-2003, 08:09 PM	#19
TC Dale Global Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,961	I agree. If you want to have a discussion, the way you started is not the best way to go. I mean come on........tact goes a long way here.... Whew... __________________ ----------------------------------

08-03-2003, 08:15 PM	#20
Falcon52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 615	I think it's all a matter of luck. For instance, in my league, which is about 50 years running now, I have NEVER had one of my prospects drafted after round 3 (I do a 5 round draft) succeed as a quality player. All my "stars" were guys I drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, with the occassional 3rd rounder being a utility guy or a 5th starter or a 7th reliever. However, I've seen other clubs do it. In fact, one of the guys right now in the league with great ratings and has a scouting report of "comes around once or twice in a generation" is a guy that was drafted in the 5th round (final round). Which leads me to say that I've given up on hiring LEGENDARY scouts, since I've had them pretty much from the beginning, and all they find me are the most obvious players, not the diamonds in the rough __________________ "D-FENCE! D-FENCE!"